No living faith without works

[Dino246]

So then once you're "saved" you no longer need works right? They become meaningless, correct? Your saved

As to your question to assume it needs reconciling is also to assume there is a conflict. What James does is correct the error of thinking faith alone saves us. There is no conflict james just completes the theology by reminding us Abrahams faith was brought to completion by his actions.

Ah yes the thief on the cross. That's your gotcha move right? Not really. I'll say it for the millionth time, salvation belongs to God alone and he can do with it what pleases just like owner of the vineyard in Matthews gospel. God doesn't need your approval or mine to give his salvation in full measure to whoever he wishes. It doesn't relieve you of your responsibilities.

I have asked you the same question, and you still have not answered. I can draw my own conclusions, but I still hope that you will step up with a meaningful response.

 

[Nedsk]

I have asked you the same question, and you still have not answered. I can draw my own conclusions, but I still hope that you will step up with a meaningful response.

What question have I failed to answer? I more than likely have answered it but you probably just don't like the answer.

 

[Dino246]

What question have I failed to answer? I more than likely have answered it but you probably just don't like the answer.

From post 234, page 12:

"Please describe the process of salvation as you understand it. At what point in the process is a person actually "saved" as you understand it?"

 

[Nedsk]

From post 234, page 12:

"Please describe the process of salvation as you understand it. At what point in the process is a person actually "saved" as you understand it?"

So for clarification purposes you too believe being saved is an event and thats why once you're saved you're always saved is that correct?

I'm not sure how many times you people need to hear this but this isn't about what I understand it's about what I read in scripture. Jesus dying on the cross makes salvation available not guaranteed. Without that there is nothing to discuss. This reminds me of the parable of the wedding banquet.

Then jesus is painstakingly clear matt 7:21

Then Paul encourages is to work out of salvation with fear and trembling. What fear is there once we are saved? What need is there to tremble if one is saved. If salvation is secure why is Paul worried about being disqualified?

And the bottom line is I don't determine if I'm saved, I not that presumptuous. God decides it not me and not you. What I do know is that salvation is possible ONlY through Jesus.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

So then once you're "saved" you no longer need works right? They become meaningless, correct? Your saved. A done deal. I dare say, completed.

As to your question to assume it needs reconciling is also to assume there is a conflict. What James does is correct the error of thinking faith alone saves us. There is no conflict james just completes the theology by reminding us Abrahams faith was brought to completion by his actions.

Ah yes the thief on the cross. That's your gotcha move right? Not really. I'll say it for the millionth time, salvation belongs to God alone and he can do with it what pleases just like owner of the vineyard in Matthews gospel. God doesn't need your approval or mine to give his salvation in full measure to whoever he wishes. It doesn't relieve you of your responsibilities.

Good job again on not answering a single question. Just deflection and sarcasm. I ask serious logical questions and get a bunch of rambling in return.

 

[Nedsk]

Good job again on not answering a single question. Just deflection and sarcasm. I ask serious logical questions and get a bunch of rambling in return.

What question didn't I answer? I'll bet I've answered it six times already

Btw you post replies to things Ive never even said so good for you. The best example is telling me works don't save us even though I've NEVER said works save us. So save me your drama queenery.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

What question didn't I answer? I'll bet I've answered it six times already

Btw you post replies to things Ive never even said so good for you. The best example is telling me works don't save us even though I've NEVER said works save us. So save me your drama queenery.

All of them but it doesn’t matter.


You said:

works make faith salvific

There’s zero assurance in that. How do you know when your works are complete? Are you currently saved? If works are required then it’s up to God to set the standard for works. I guess you’ll just have to wait until you meet Him to see if you met the standard.

Your view is like one of those ads on tv. “You can get this item for FREE. All you have to do is pay the $19.99 S&H.” Really isn’t FREE is it?

 

[Nedsk]

All of them but it doesn’t matter.


You said:

There’s zero assurance in that. How do you know when your works are complete? Are you currently saved? If works are required then it’s up to God to set the standard for works. I guess you’ll just have to wait until you meet Him to see if you met the standard.

Your view is like one of those ads on tv. “You can get this item for FREE. All you have to do is pay the $19.99 S&H.” Really isn’t FREE is it?

You don't know when your works are complete that's why I'm not presumptuous and self righteous. Paul wasnt sure either thats why he was worried about being disqualified and told us to work your salvation with fear and trembling.

Here's the dilemma for you as i see it. You claim faith alone is sufficient. Fine. Prove to me the truth you possess is acceptable to God or is God just a venting machine? You "believe" and he dispenses salvation. Wonderful and once it's yours you can never lose it right? Works don't matter right? So i can do whatever I want since I got my salvation dispensed to me right? You can't of that right? If you do you were never really a believer, right?

 

[Dino246]

So for clarification purposes you too believe being saved is an event and thats why once you're saved you're always saved is that correct?

I'm not sure how many times you people need to hear this but this isn't about what I understand it's about what I read in scripture. Jesus dying on the cross makes salvation available not guaranteed. Without that there is nothing to discuss. This reminds me of the parable of the wedding banquet.

Then jesus is painstakingly clear matt 7:21

Then Paul encourages is to work out of salvation with fear and trembling. What fear is there once we are saved? What need is there to tremble if one is saved. If salvation is secure why is Paul worried about being disqualified?

And the bottom line is I don't determine if I'm saved, I not that presumptuous. God decides it not me and not you. What I do know is that salvation is possible ONlY through Jesus.

While I don't consider that any kind of adequate answer, I see it's all I'm going to get.

People who don't continue to follow Jesus faithfully, but who turn back to the world, have much to fear.

However, we who do follow Jesus are given the Holy Spirit as a GUARANTEE of our inheritance (2 Corinthians 1:22 and 5:5, and Ephesians 1:14).

There is NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1).

We draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the FULL ASSURANCE that our faith brings (Hebrews 10:22).

I suggest to you that your faith is incomplete because you don't believe what Scripture says about those who believe.

God has made the conditions for salvation clear to us, and He has also given us enough information to be certain of that salvation. Believing what He has said is not being presumptuous.

 

[Toknow]

It's not creepy it's ignorant. That poster is mocking what he believes are catholic "works" because people who believe like that poster think anyone who discusses the necessity of works MUST be Catholic. That poster abandoned the discussion and was solely intending to denigrate Catholicism.

That's interesting.
There was a Pew Poll taken some time ago....
they asked Protestants if they believed good works were part of being saved.
53% replied yes.

Ephesians 2:10 states that we are created for good works.
jesus spent 3 years teaching His dicsiples how to behave.
Paul exhorts good behavior in all of this letters.

But some believe good works are filthy word.

It's good to post on these Forums to combat this heretical idea...
heretical meaning that it is not orthodox Christianity.

Christianity has always taught that God must be obeyed.

If the MUST word disturbs some...I really have stopped caring.

Certainly Jesus meant something by this.

John 14.15
15“If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

 

[Nedsk]

While I don't consider that any kind of adequate answer, I see it's all I'm going to get.

People who don't continue to follow Jesus faithfully, but who turn back to the world, have much to fear.

However, we who do follow Jesus are given the Holy Spirit as a GUARANTEE of our inheritance (2 Corinthians 1:22 and 5:5, and Ephesians 1:14).

There is NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1).

We draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the FULL ASSURANCE that our faith brings (Hebrews 10:22).

I suggest to you that your faith is incomplete because you don't believe what Scripture says about those who believe.

God has made the conditions for salvation clear to us, and He has also given us enough information to be certain of that salvation. Believing what He has said is not being presumptuous.

With all due respect I don't answer questions to meet your standard of "adequate". The level of pomposity is strong in you.

Jesus did make it clear Those who will enter the.kingdome of heaven are those that do(verb) the will of my heavenly Father. So I can listen to Jesus or I can listen to some rando named dino on an obscure website. I'm certain with your level of self importance you can't figure out why i wouldn't listen to you.

 

[Toknow]

While I don't consider that any kind of adequate answer, I see it's all I'm going to get.

People who don't continue to follow Jesus faithfully, but who turn back to the world, have much to fear.

So a person COULD turn back to the world?
Just like Peter stated in 2 Peter 2:20-22?

I thought you believed in OSAS.

However, we who do follow Jesus are given the Holy Spirit as a GUARANTEE of our inheritance (2 Corinthians 1:22 and 5:5, and Ephesians 1:14).

But above you stated that a person COULD turn back after following Jesus.

And yes, the Holy Spirit IN YOU is a guarantee of the promise...
IF you hold on to the Holy Spirit.

There is NO CONDEMNATION for those who are in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:1).

Yes sir.
No condemnation for those that are IN CHRIST JESUS.

We draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the FULL ASSURANCE that our faith brings (Hebrews 10:22).

Yes sir.
Our faith is our assurance.

If we have faith,
we will be obedient to Jesus....who died for us.

I suggest to you that your faith is incomplete because you don't believe what Scripture says about those who believe.

What does scripture say about those who believe?

God has made the conditions for salvation clear to us, and He has also given us enough information to be certain of that salvation. Believing what He has said is not being presumptuous.

What are the conditions for our salvation?

 

[Dino246]

I thought you believed in OSAS.

You thought, but didn't think to ask.

And yes, the Holy Spirit IN YOU is a guarantee of the promise...
IF you hold on to the Holy Spirit.

No; if you hold on to Jesus.

Our faith is our assurance.

No, that's not what the text says.

If we have faith,
we will be obedient to Jesus....who died for us.

That also is not what the text says.

What does scripture say about those who believe?

What are the conditions for our salvation?

I'm sure you're capable of reading Scripture for yourself. I'm not going to facilitate laziness.

 

[Toknow]

It seems that those who say there are requirements beyond faith often can’t clearly define what those requirements are.

We're too dumb to explain them Just.

Wha do you expect from dumb persons that think they understand what Jesus taught for over 3 years?

It's better to just keep thinking what you're thinking
and to keep asking what you're asking.

It gets you a lot of attention,,,
which you apparently need.

 

[Just_A__Follower]

You don't know when your works are complete that's why I'm not presumptuous and self righteous. Paul wasnt sure either thats why he was worried about being disqualified and told us to work your salvation with fear and trembling.

Here's the dilemma for you as i see it. You claim faith alone is sufficient. Fine. Prove to me the truth you possess is acceptable to God or is God just a venting machine? You "believe" and he dispenses salvation. Wonderful and once it's yours you can never lose it right? Works don't matter right? So i can do whatever I want since I got my salvation dispensed to me right? You can't of that right? If you do you were never really a believer, right?

You don't know when your works are complete that's why I'm not presumptuous and self righteous. Paul wasnt sure either thats why he was worried about being disqualified and told us to work your salvation with fear and trembling.

Here's the dilemma for you as i see it. You claim faith alone is sufficient. Fine. Prove to me the truth you possess is acceptable to God or is God just a venting machine? You "believe" and he dispenses salvation. Wonderful and once it's yours you can never lose it right? Works don't matter right? So i can do whatever I want since I got my salvation dispensed to me right? You can't of that right? If you do you were never really a believer, right?

So you admit you don’t know if your works are complete. That means you can’t actually know if you’re saved.

But Jesus said, “Come to me all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” Where’s the rest in a system where you spend your whole life wondering if you’ve done enough?

That sounds less like rest and more like lifelong anxiety.

 

[Toknow]

You thought, but didn't think to ask.


No; if you hold on to Jesus.

Is the Holy Spirit not God?

No, that's not what the text says.


That also is not what the text says.

Hmmm.
It sure seems like that's what the text says.

seems like something important to undersand.

I'm sure you're capable of reading Scripture for yourself. I'm not going to facilitate laziness.

Or,,,you're not willing to post the reply.

Some on here are very reluctant to post scripture to support their view.

Guess they're incapable of using scripture to support their view.

 

[Toknow]

So you admit you don’t know if your works are complete. That means you can’t actually know if you’re saved.

But Jesus said, “Come to me all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” Where’s the rest in a system where you spend your whole life wondering if you’ve done enough?

That sounds less like rest and more like lifelong anxiety.

The only anxious person here Just...is YOU.
I believe the other member is very secure in his salvation.
Ditto for me.
You should get on the bandwagon.
It would make Jesus happy.

 

[Inquisitor]

Could you show us one Christian that denies this?

You left out Eph 2:10.
I do wonder why.

It takes time.

The concept of a new creation in Christ is not something that everyone, would understand?

I thought grace and the free gift would be suffiicient for now.

 

[Cameron143]

So you admit you don’t know if your works are complete. That means you can’t actually know if you’re saved.

But Jesus said, “Come to me all who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.” Where’s the rest in a system where you spend your whole life wondering if you’ve done enough?

That sounds less like rest and more like lifelong anxiety.

It also makes 1 John 5:13 false.

 

[Inquisitor]

Could you show us one Christian that denies this?

You left out Eph 2:10.
I do wonder why.

Anyone that thinks that salvation is partly earned by good works or otherwise.