No living faith without works

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Jesus put it much more succinctly, "Not everyone who says to me, Lord, Lord will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my heavenly Father."
John 6:40 - For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

These many people in Matthew 7:22-23 failed to do the will of the Father by choosing to believe in him and receive eternal life. Jesus never knew these many people which means they were never saved. Despite their outward religious activity, they lacked faith (Hebrews 11:6) and a personal relationship with Jesus Christ. (John 17:3) Hence, workers of iniquity/you who practice lawlessness.
 
But we will be judged by our works matt 25:31-46. Who inherits the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world? No where does it say those who believe or those who have faith.
So, you disregard belief/faith because it's not specifically spelled out in Matthew 25:31-46? After a casual reading of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), these verses "on the surface" may seem to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. Yet scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance-based salvation, but salvation-based performance. It's obvious the sheep had faith and the goats did not.

The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are the fruit that was manifest in the lives of the sheep. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because of the imputed righteousness of God by faith (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof) and not simply on faith from which these works follow. So, it is understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress the works done in love (faith works through love - Galatians 5:6) which are a manifestation of faith by which one receives eternal life. James 2:5 - Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

*Notice how love for other Christians is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "of God" not to become of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
 
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But we will be judged by our works matt 25:31-46. Who inherits the kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the world? No where does it say those who believe or those who have faith.
They were judged by the nature of their hearts. The sheep didn’t know they had done the works. The goats never noticed the one in need. You should probably research the different nature between goats and sheep. He didn’t use those two animals in the parable for no reason. Sheep are natural followers with a do what the shepherd says nature. They don’t try to work. They are hardwired to be that way. Goats are selfish stubborn rebels always looking to escape wherever you put them. Matt 25 is not about a performance review on how many works are done. If you are doing works to mark off a checklist, you are working for yourself and you are a goat. If the works flow naturally from you faith and trust in the shepherd you are a sheep.
 
@studier

It's rather difficult to have a serious conversation here, but would like your opinion
because of your knowledge of grammar.

The reformed/calvinists always will refer to Romans 8:28-30 and also some verses in Romans 9 because they believe these passages are referring to God's predestination of individuals for salvation.

It's clear from the NT that this understanding is not correct,
and all that is necessary is Romans 9:30 which states that Gentiles are righteous because of their FAITH,
ditto for the jews who did NOT seek righteousness by faith.


Romans 9:30-32
30 What shall we say then? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, attained righteousness, even the righteousness which is by faith;

31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.

32 Why *? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works. They stumbled over the stumbling stone,



and, we see that Romans 10 also destroys a calvinist understanding of 8:30, and chpater 9:


Romans 10:16-17
16 However, they did not all heed the good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.




Two points:
1. "They did not all heed" refers to man's free will to accept or reject God's message.
2. Faith comes by hearing....and not by unconditional election.

So I believe we need nothing further to dismantle Romans 8 and 9 as calvinist in nature.

However,,,,there is a new idea that I've recently learned ....
and it states that Romans 8:28-30 is actually speaking about those that are already saved believers.
in fact this is stated in,
Romans 8:28......God works all thing for the good TO THOSE THAT LOVE HIM.


Then Romans 8:29 goes on to say that God foreknew those that would be conformed to the image of His Son.


Then Romans 8:30 switches to the past tense.....
the idea being that perhaps Paul was addressing OT saints/believers because JUSTIFIED and GLORIFIED are in the past tense...
and a person would have to be dead in order to be glorified.


Romans 8:28-30
28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose.

29 For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren;

30 and
these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified.

(how could a person be glorified if they're still living)


Care to take the time to comment?

Perhaps @TrustandObey would also have a comment.
The aorists begin with 'foreknew' - in context I've viewed all of them to be speaking about His predetermined plan/process - IOW Paul is informing us what God's Plan is and includes and this is one of those already done but not yet completed teachings.

I would have to see more of the reasoning re: what you're mentioning and in part look at glorification - when does it take place?

I will tell you that long ago I began making notes about Rom8:28 because "all things" can be a subject or an object (spelling is the same of each category in this word's parsing) and 'works together' is 'sunergeō from which we get 'synergy', and 'for those' and 'to those' are translational and can also be translated 'with those'. Nothing dogmatic but since we're looking at wording, I'm normally open to solid reasoning on translation issues like this and your aorist tense mention.
 
The aorists begin with 'foreknew' - in context I've viewed all of them to be speaking about His predetermined plan/process - IOW Paul is informing us what God's Plan is and includes and this is one of those already done but not yet completed teachings.

I would have to see more of the reasoning re: what you're mentioning and in part look at glorification - when does it take place?
I'm sure I saw this new theory on YouTube siince I don't really read anymore.
If I could find it, i'll link it.
I do try to be very careful about who is doing the teaching....
too many odd ideas on YouTube these days.
It did sound reasonable however........
But not necessary to dismantle Romans 8:28-30

I will tell you that long ago I began making notes about Rom8:28 because "all things" can be a subject or an object (spelling is the same of each category in this word's parsing) and 'works together' is 'sunergeō from which we get 'synergy', and 'for those' and 'to those' are translational and can also be translated 'with those'.

I've always understood ALL THINGS to be anything that we encounter in this life.
That may not be satisfactory to you. Understandable.

Anything negative that may happen...can be used in a positive way.
A friend's daughter once told me that there's something different between her mother and me.
She said I'm better able to accept what happens,,,and she did look into Christianity because of this.
Even if we cannot make something good (at least to our current understanding) come of an incident,,,
surely it will not drive us into desperation (and this is by experience).

WORKING TOGETHER...
I see synergism in our relationship with God.
He offers
We accept
He helps us
We accept

It seems to be ongoing.

IF God is doing EVERYTHING in my life...
and CAUSING everything,,,,I could probably be most uspet right now.

I suppose it's because I don't accept a sovereign God !
Which is what the reformed would say.
Nothing dogmatic but since we're looking at wording, I'm normally open to solid reasoning on translation issues like this and your aorist tense mention.
 
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Nedsk
The other side of the isle likes to either reject scripture or ignore it altogether.

Matthew 7 has many verses that the other side likes to ignore.

Yours is one of them:

Matthew 7:21
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.



Jesus also said:
Luke 6.46
46 "Why do you call Me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?



If we do not ACT on the words of Jesus....we are like the foolish man whose house fell when the winds came.
Luke 6:47


Faith alone is not a biblical teaching.

Jesus said to repent for the Kingdom of God is at hand.
WE are the Kingdom of God.

It's up to US to fashion the Kingdom of God here.

This requires DOING what Jesus commanded us to do.
This is spot on. If the amount of stuff they ignore was food they'd be considered glutinous in in their willingness to ignore it.
They were judged by the nature of their hearts. The sheep didn’t know they had done the works. The goats never noticed the one in need. You should probably research the different nature between goats and sheep. He didn’t use those two animals in the parable for no reason. Sheep are natural followers with a do what the shepherd says nature. They don’t try to work. They are hardwired to be that way. Goats are selfish stubborn rebels always looking to escape wherever you put them. Matt 25 is not about a performance review on how many works are done. If you are doing works to mark off a checklist, you are working for yourself and you are a goat. If the works flow naturally from you faith and trust in the shepherd you are a sheep.
First that's incorrect and second where does it mention their hearts are being judged? It literally says, "And the King will answer, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you DID for one of the least of these brethren of mine, you DID for me'". The emphasis is mine. NOTHING about heart but about action. Look you can't add willy nilly to Scripture so it fits your narrative. Whenever you people start telling me what Scripture "really" means then I know we're headed off the reservation
 
This is spot on. If the amount of stuff they ignore was food they'd be considered glutinous in in their willingness to ignore it.
LOL
Yes sir.


First that's incorrect and second where does it mention their hearts are being judged? It literally says, "And the King will answer, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you DID for one of the least of these brethren of mine, you DID for me'". The emphasis is mine. NOTHING about heart but about action. Look you can't add willy nilly to Scripture so it fits your narrative. Whenever you people start telling me what Scripture "really" means then I know we're headed off the reservation
The above is not for me...however, yes,,,you are 100% correct.

What some on here do is to read into scripture words which are not present.

Matthew 25...Jesus will divide based on what was DONE.....

Jesus said we are to ACT on His words.
Matthew 7:24-25


James said it's of no value to say that we are sorry that people are cold, hungry----but do nothing to help them.


James 2:14-17
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,

16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?

17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.
 
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So, you disregard belief/faith because it's not specifically spelled out in Matthew 25:31-46? After a casual reading of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), these verses "on the surface" may seem to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. Yet scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance-based salvation, but salvation-based performance. It's obvious the sheep had faith and the goats did not.

The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are the fruit that was manifest in the lives of the sheep. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds, but because of the imputed righteousness of God by faith (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of, receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof) and not simply on faith from which these works follow. So, it is understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress the works done in love (faith works through love - Galatians 5:6) which are a manifestation of faith by which one receives eternal life. James 2:5 - Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

*Notice how love for other Christians is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "of God" not to become of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
No I'm not I'm merely saying that in that passages all nations and presumably all the peoples of those nations will be gathered before the throne for judgment not just non believers but believers as well. You aren't safe from judgement simply because you believe.
 
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So, you disregard belief/faith because it's not specifically spelled out in Matthew 25:31-46?

@Nedsk is attempting to state to you something you will never accept,
but that is, however, exactly what the NT teaches.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Hebrews.

But faith is not EVERYTHING....

to faith we must add good works.
THIS is what Jesus was teaching in Matthew 25.


After a casual reading of the sheep and goats (Matthew 25:31-46), these verses "on the surface" may seem to suggest that salvation is the result of good works. Yet scripture proves itself right and non-contradictory when compared with the totality of scripture. This passage has to be taken alongside the whole of scripture. Jesus was not advocating salvation by works. That would be contrary to Romans 4:4-6;

Jesus was advocating that AFTER we believe in HIM....
we better do what HE said we are to do.

And your strawman is very tiring.
NO ONE on this forum believes we are saved by works.

But works are necessary if we believe IN GOD.....
Works are necessary in order to be obedient to God.

If we are NOT obedient....
we will not see heaven but the wrath of God will remain.


John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not
obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."



James 1:22
22But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.


John 14:21
21Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”

Ephesians 2:8,9; 2 Timothy 1:9; Titus 3:5 etc... One's works are an effect of (and therefore indication of) one's salvation status, rather than being a cause of one's salvation. This is not performance-based salvation, but salvation-based performance. It's obvious the sheep had faith and the goats did not.
You always leave out Ephesians 2:10
We are created for good works.

You are participating in a performance based salvation system that requires obedience to God.
Obedience to God requires good works.

One day this will be accepted.

God will not be coming down from heaven to create a better world...
WE have been entrusted to do this.

Jesus said the Kingdom of heaven is at hand...
REPENT.
Matthew 4:17


The good deeds mentioned in Matthew 25:35-36 are the fruit that was manifest in the lives of the sheep. Those who are placed at Christ's right hand are not there based on the merits of their good deeds,

Of course those on the right hand are there because of their good deeds.
It's CLEARLY what Jesus stated.

Jesus said that if we DO NOT BEAR FRUIT...
we will be cut off from the vine.

John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;



Why are the words of Jesus ignored?

but because of the imputed righteousness of God by faith (Romans 4:2-6; Philippians 3:9). When works are mentioned in connection with salvation, the works are always the result of, not the condition of,

Works are the CONDITION OF...
or Jesus wouldn't be putting some to His left.

Very easy to understand
IF one wants to understand.


receiving salvation. The stress is on works as a manifestation of one's faith (or lack thereof) and not simply on faith from which these works follow. So, it is understandable that in this context, Matthew would stress the works done in love (faith works through love - Galatians 5:6) which are a manifestation of faith by which one receives eternal life. James 2:5 - Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

*Notice how love for other Christians is an indication of one's salvation status: 1 John 3:10 - In this the children of God and the children of the devil are manifest: Whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is he who does not love his brother. He who practices righteousness and loves his brother does so BECAUSE he is "of God" not to become of God. 1 John 3:14 - We know that we have (past tense) passed from death to life, because we love our brothers (present tense). Loving our brothers is the result of, not the condition of passing from death to life. 1 John 4:7 - Beloved, let us love one another, for love is of God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God.
Right.
NOT practicing righteousness is not obeying God.

Does not LOVING OUR BROTHERS mean we should be actually DOING something?


Again....

James 2:14-17
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.



Go ahead MMD.
Explain how the above, written by an Apostle of Jesus, does not mean what it says.
 
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This is spot on. If the amount of stuff they ignore was food they'd be considered glutinous in in their willingness to ignore it.

First that's incorrect and second where does it mention their hearts are being judged? It literally says, "And the King will answer, 'Amen, I say to you, whatever you DID for one of the least of these brethren of mine, you DID for me'". The emphasis is mine. NOTHING about heart but about action. Look you can't add willy nilly to Scripture so it fits your narrative. Whenever you people start telling me what Scripture "really" means then I know we're headed off the reservation
If they were being judged on a todo list they would have been keeping score but the sheep were actually confused by the reward. They asked when they did those things because it wasnt a performance or a checklist but just their nature as followers of the shepherd. The people Jesus actually rejects(goats) are the ones in Matthew 7 who cried out Lord Lord and listed all the many works they did in his name. Those people were keeping a tally of their actions like stubborn goats trying to jump the fence on their own merit but the sheep were just naturally reflecting the shepherds heart because they were actually following the voice of the king.

A todo list produces a legalistic stubborn goat trying to save itself while a true relationship produces loving works that the sheep don’t even realize they’re doing.
 
@Nedsk is attempting to state to you something you will never accept,
but that is, however, exactly what the NT teaches.

Without faith it is impossible to please God. Hebrews.

But faith is not EVERYTHING....

to faith we must add good works.
THIS is what Jesus was teaching in Matthew 25.




Jesus was advocating that AFTER we believe in HIM....
we better do what HE said we are to do.

And your strawman is very tiring.
NO ONE on this forum believes we are saved by works.

But works are necessary if we believe IN GOD.....
Works are necessary in order to be obedient to God.

If we are NOT obedient....
we will not see heaven but the wrath of God will remain.


John 3:36
36 "He who believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who does not
obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him."



James 1:22
22But be doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving yourselves.
John 14:21
21Whoever has my commandments and keeps them, he it is who loves me. And he who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love him and manifest myself to him.”


You always leave out Ephesians 2:10
We are created for good works.

You are participating in a performance based salvation system that requires obedience to God.
Obedience to God requires good works.

One day this will be accepted.

God will not be coming down from heaven to create a better world...
WE have been entrusted to do this.

Jesus said the Kingdom of heaven is at hand...
REPENT.
Matthew 4:17




Of course those on the right hand are there because of their good deeds.
It's CLEARLY what Jesus stated.

Jesus said that if we DO NOT BEAR FRUIT...
we will be cut off from the vine.

John 15:2
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away;



Why are the words of Jesus ignored?



Works are the CONDITION OF...
or Jesus wouldn't be putting some to His left.

Very easy to understand
IF one wants to understand.



Right.
NOT practicing righteousness is not obeying God.

Does not LOVING OUR BROTHERS mean we should be actually DOING something?


Again....

James 2:14-17
14 What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food,
16 and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that?
17 Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.



Go ahead MMD.
Explain how the above, written by an Apostle of Jesus, does not mean what it says.
Obedience in paramount because like James says even the demon believe and tremble but they aren't obedient. I think it was Parde Pio who said obedience is essential since obedience is the only virtue the devil can't mimic. He can be as pious and any Christian but he can't obey.
 
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If they were being judged on a todo list they would have been keeping score but the sheep were actually confused by the reward. They asked when they did those things because it wasnt a performance or a checklist but just their nature as followers of the shepherd. The people Jesus actually rejects(goats) are the ones in Matthew 7 who cried out Lord Lord and listed all the many works they did in his name. Those people were keeping a tally of their actions like stubborn goats trying to jump the fence on their own merit but the sheep were just naturally reflecting the shepherds heart because they were actually following the voice of the king.

A todo list produces a legalistic stubborn goat trying to save itself while a true relationship produces loving works that the sheep don’t even realize they’re doing.
What nonsense.

Jesus was just explaining that whatever they did for their fellow man,,it was as if they did it FOR HIM.


Colossians 3:
23 Whatever
* you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than * for men,

24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.
 
Obedience in paramount because like James says even the demon believe and tremble but they aren't obedient. I think it was Parde Pio who said obedience is essential since obedience is the only virtue the devil can't mimic. He can be as pious and any Christian but he can't obey.
Interesting.
This is very true.
 
If they were being judged on a todo list they would have been keeping score but the sheep were actually confused by the reward. They asked when they did those things because it wasnt a performance or a checklist but just their nature as followers of the shepherd. The people Jesus actually rejects(goats) are the ones in Matthew 7 who cried out Lord Lord and listed all the many works they did in his name. Those people were keeping a tally of their actions like stubborn goats trying to jump the fence on their own merit but the sheep were just naturally reflecting the shepherds heart because they were actually following the voice of the king.

A todo list produces a legalistic stubborn goat trying to save itself while a true relationship produces loving works that the sheep don’t even realize they’re doing.
No one but you is talking about to-do lists. Scripture is quite clear what you need to do. If faith alone was sufficient for salvation it would need completion by works just like James said. BTW please don't bore me with a reply about things I never said.
 
Jesus was advocating that AFTER we believe in HIM....
we better do what HE said we are to do.

And your strawman is very tiring.
NO ONE on this forum believes we are saved by works.

But works are necessary if we believe IN GOD.....
Works are necessary in order to be obedient to God.

If we are NOT obedient....
we will not see heaven but the wrath of God will remain.
There's a lot in your post I'd like to commend, but I'll just comment here:

Absolutely agree.

It is very tiring reading the poor arguments and fallacious reasoning used to misrepresent alternative understandings - especially this saved by works stuff.

Obedience and good works are part of and included in faith in God. Apart from them there is ultimately no biblical faith in God and the Lord Jesus Christ. And we know that obedience and good works are in response to God grace.

Good post.
 
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There's a lot in your post I'd like to commend, but I'll just comment here:

Absolutely agree.

It is very tiring reading the poor arguments and fallacious reasoning used to misrepresent alternative understandings - especially this saved by works stuff.

Obedience and good works are part of and included in faith in God. Apart from them there is ultimately no biblical faith in God and the Lord Jesus Christ. And we know that obedience and good works are in response to God grace.

Good post.
You can't understand what's even being said can you? Copy and paste where anyone has said we are saved by works. You people are incredible. It's as if you're pre programmed brains click on when you see the word "works" and you say stuff even though it has nothing to do with what's being said. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
 
You can't understand what's even being said can you? Copy and paste where anyone has said we are saved by works. You people are incredible. It's as if you're pre programmed brains click on when you see the word "works" and you say stuff even though it has nothing to do with what's being said. It would be funny if it wasn't so sad.
?
 
What nonsense.

Jesus was just explaining that whatever they did for their fellow man,,it was as if they did it FOR HIM.


Colossians 3:
23 Whatever
* you do, do your work heartily, as for the Lord rather than * for men,

24 knowing that from the Lord you will receive the reward of the inheritance. It is the Lord Christ whom you serve.
You still don’t get the difference between works and intention behind the works. It’s about the heart behind the actions not the actions themselves. You’re to focused on your works and retaining your salvation that you’re missing the love and relationship. The sheep didn’t try to do good works. They didn’t even know they did good works.