It does not "bring about faith."
God gives us what is to become our faith. The Word of God that is believed.
Loss of salvation???
- Thread starter gratefuloneson
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It does not "bring about faith."
God gives us what is to become our faith. The Word of God that is believed.
The way I currently see the 4 points. I'll make a few beginning comments at the end:
- The Sower sows God’s Word on some people (masc), but Satan removes it so they do not believe and be saved.
- The Sower sows God’s Word on some people (masc) who receive/welcome it with joy, have/hold no root, believe for a time, but fall away in a time of testing.
- The Sower sows God’s Word in a thorn‑filled life scenario (neut); the people hear, but it is choked by the cares, riches, and pleasures of life and does not produce fruit to maturity.
- The Sower sows God’s Word in a good earth scenario (neut); the people (plural) who hear it in a good and noble heart (singular) hold it fast and bear fruit with endurance.
- In #1 & #2 Jesus is focusing on people - masculine
- In #3 & #4 Jesus switches from people to what I see as a sowing scenario - neuter
- Reason(s)?
- You asked about #4 - IMO they are are the only ones ultimately 'saved' (introduced in #1)
- Endurance is necessary
- Production is necessary
- Besides the 2 adjectives describing the heart I note that it is a singular heart and not hearts to match the plural people.
- I know we like to go into who prepared the soils, but it's argument from silence in these verses (I'm not looking at close context at the moment)
I find myself especially noting the holding fast and the imagery of soil touching the seed, with nothing between wedged between. The root grows straight into the soil. Coupled with the exhortation to harden not your heart, this would imply that the rocks might be cast away if we encounter them, and the possibility that thorns might be uprooted as necessary to better accommodate the proliferation of the seed. As to the first soil, and the second even, it seems to be suggesting that sowing in the well-traveled pathways is an exercise in futility. Rocks are better for pathways than for cultivating anything other than moss. These considerations invoke the ideas of flesh and spirit, the world that is and the world to come, and the 4th, as you've defined it, inspires an individual coming out of the world.
It is amazing how some can discuss things to make the obvious become obscured.
God has called believers to become problem solvers.
While the flesh of some keeps becoming the problem's best friend.
"LOOK! Let me show you what I can do with my God-given skill!"
Either for good.
Or, for evil...
God has called believers to become problem solvers.
While the flesh of some keeps becoming the problem's best friend.
"LOOK! Let me show you what I can do with my God-given skill!"
Either for good.
Or, for evil...
To me this sounds like you are asking me to prove a negative.
The fact that there is no passage in scripture that states justification is conditional informs us it is permenant forensic legal status declared solely by God and cannot be undone and the person is justified for what Christ has done for him.
The defendant cannot un-justify himself, Paul makes it clear in Romans that justification is a legal status.
Let us review once again, justification is a legal declaration.
It is more than "not guilty."
God makes the declaration and the person is pronounced “righteous"!
All due to the completed and fully sufficient work of Christ.
A person cannot undue the Judges ruling. Period.
Romans chapters 1-3,
T
TruthDefender
Guest
If you can’t comprehend the concept of someone walking away from Him, you’re the one that’s clueless!!
By the way, what is the title of the thread??? Are we not discussing loss? It’s very strange that you’re on this thread discussing something that’s obviously
incomprehensible to you.
T
TruthDefender
Guest
There are plenty of passages that elude to faith as being conditional, or passages of warning. You’re refusing to see them, for whatever reason? Because these verses don’t fit into your doctrine, you ignore them, or wrest them.
Not sure what you mean by that....
Just the same... God used to the Law to teach and define what man needed to know and understand in order to know he is a sinner.
To know what sin is...
When everyone is born a sinner?
How can one know he is a sinner?
Being a sinner would be seen by all as normal as this video portrays...
I decided not to add more complexity for a first response, but I was going to note that the parable is primarily about the sower and the seed.
So, I find your mention of exercise in futility interesting.
IOW, we focus so hard on issues about soils conditions, who's conditioning them, are we saved or not saved, that we tend to bypass how this is about the Sower of God's Word and how He views His sowing and where's He's sowing for the desired outcome - both looking at people, and at the situation they live in and what their focus is.
T
TruthDefender
Guest
A baby is not born a sinner, they’re innocent. How can they comprehend sin when they don’t even comprehend their own language?
And that is something man must do showing salvation is not just all God as some claim.
Sounds like one can continue living in sin and it's all good right?
You said nothing will alter their salvation so when people hear this fake "gospel" they thunk it's all good they can keep living in sin and it's all good.
You can't have it both ways and trying to ride the fence is being lukewarm and those are the folks Jesus is going to spew out of His mouth which is being cast out of the Body of Christ.
Read John 15 and notice Jesus' warnings concerning the Father owns the vine and removes those that don't bare fruit.
Jesus is telling the Truth here and He ain't just whistlin dixie
Thanks for your answer. I don't see it as an argument from silence, but I can see what you mean.
What we see is a parable expressed as an analogy. The two parts of an analogy are: the illustration and the intended meaning. But as with Jesus' parable analogies, sometimes he provides only one side of the analogy. Jesus expects his audience to deduce the target meaning.
The "Silent" part, if you will, is the target meaning. Fortunately, Luke supplies the target meaning to three or four parables for us so that we can understand the technique (i think)
As for the parable, using a farming analogy, he speaks about four possible results of hearing the word of God.
Road - Fail - No Belief Satanic influence
Rocky - Fail - Initial Belief but falls away.
Weeds - Fail - Initial Belief, but lose interest.
Cultivated - Success - Belief, perseverance, fruit.
This agricultural analogy is easy to understand. The purpose of planting seeds is to grow a crop to maturity. Only one soil type will give the farmer what he wants. Without knowing the target meaning of the parable, we have already deduced the basic idea. And it is a simple calculus: when the seed falls on cultivated soil, it grows into a mature plant and produces the desired fruit.
The silent part, if you will, is the target meaning that Jesus intended. Luke 8:11-15 In that passage, Jesus interprets the parable, and from his interpretation, we learn that the target meaning is perseverance unto salvation.
I meant to like your other post but this will be fine. This is often raised as a valid argument against Calvinism. (Another reason I am not a Calvinist.) If God has already decided who to punish before they are born, then what about babies? Is God going to punish an innocent baby? The answer is an emphatic NO.
I was actually responding to the last statement that was made and if paying more attention would not have brought forward the comment re: "born".
We have a benevolent God. So we have to keep that at the forefront of our minds. His ultimate goal is good and the best for the human race. Even if we view it as "bad."
Romans 5:18~~So then, as through one offense the result was condemnation to all mankind, so also through one act of righteousness the result was justification of life to all mankind.
So a benevolent God made the choice to condemn us all. And a benevolent God sent His Son for all.
What that ultimately means for babies, mentally ill and people who could not possibly understand and believe the Gospel........Are safe.
Jonah 4:11~~~Should I not also have compassion on Nineveh, the great city in which there are more than 120,000 people, who do not know the difference between their right hand and their left, as well as many animals?”
Being born condemned, makes us ALL savable from birth......A blessing in disguise from a benevolent God.