Loss of salvation???

[HeIsHere]

Many ways to approach it I guess. Loss of salvation, faith, relationship, etc.

Loss is really not the best way to be discussing it IMO. It's too loaded and too charged by now. The biblical words are withdrawal, falling away, etc.

The word in Heb3:12 some of us were discussing is afistēmi - Lexicall per BDAG: of action that results in the distancing of pers. or thing from pers., thing, place, or condition. 1. to cause someone to move from a reference point, trans., in our lit. in ref. to altering allegiance cause to revolt, mislead; 2. to distance oneself from some pers. or thing: a. go away, withdraw; b. keep away, abstain.

It's part of what "Holy Brothers" & "partakers of [a] heavenly call/invitation" (Heb3:1) are being warned and commanded to not get into and to be guarded against (Heb3).

Fair enough, but what can believers fall away from, what is in view in the Letter to the Hebrews.

Unlike, many here I affirm that they were saved and that they were indeed partakers, meaning yes they were born from above, justified.

I refuse to infuse "Calvinism/Reformed doctrine" into the scripture to assuage the reality of what scripture warns about and how messy reality can be.

 

[TruthDefender]

Sure there is, the Sabbath was made for mankind said Jesus who is God so unless one is not a human-being the Sabbath according to Jesus is made for them Mar2:27-28 Jesus said- if you love Me, keep My commandments John14:15 the commandments have always been for those who love God Exo20:6- Jesus who is God is the one speaking His commandments at Mt Sinai and He prophesized of magnifying them Isa42:21 not a jot or tittle can pass, because who can edit God? Why the saints keep the commandments of God and faith of Jesus until the end of time Rev14:12

Ok, so it sounds like you don’t differentiate between OT and NT. You have been ignoring those many, many verses about Christ nailing the OC to the cross. We are under the Law of Christ and not under the Law given through Moses.

There is nothing more I can discuss with you, since you seem to ignore the verses that I do give.

 

[studier]

So how would you define justified seen through the lens of how Paul meant it to be understood?

Mainly I'd begin seeing it through the lens of Paul in Acts13:39 which is part of his real evangelistic teaching to Jews and Gentiles (Acts13:16-41) (and side note see in Acts13:42 who it was who was mainly interested).

YLT Acts 13:38 'Let it therefore be known to you, men, brethren, that through this one to you is the forgiveness of sins declared, 39 and from all things from which ye were not able in the law of Moses to be declared righteous, in this one every one who is believing is declared righteous;​

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I'm using YLT because it is the most literal.​

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There are nearly always translation issues to be discussed, but this is saying IN this man (Jesus Christ) every [man] (probably music to the ears of the interested Gentiles/God-fearers Acts13:16) who is believing (present tense taken as continuous or currently continuous) is (present tense) deemed righteous/release from institutional claims.​

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The word order in Greek is important. The phrase "in this [man]" is just like the YLT translates it. So it's pushing forward a concept of being in union with - IN Christ, every man who is believing, is free from legal claims.​

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There are several ways to look at these present tenses.​

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Bottom line is there is legitimate discussion here that makes our justification relational - believing in Jesus Christ / being in union - in relationship with Jesus Christ / we are free from legal claims (He became our righteousness 1Cor1:30).​

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So, yes, there is discussion to be had about withdrawing from being in relationship with Him and not having what the relationship provides.​

 

[studier]

Fair enough, but what can believers fall away from, what is in view in the Letter to the Hebrews.

Unlike, many here I affirm that they were saved and that they were indeed partakers, meaning yes they were born from above, justified.

I refuse to infuse "Calvinism/Reformed doctrine" into the scripture to assuage the reality of what scripture warns about and how messy reality can be.

With respect, and I'm not using this opening emptily, it really doesn't matter what you affirm, or what any of us affirm. Just like none of this depends on you or any of us for breath.

What matters is what He says. I think at the end of all this, you agree.

BTW, we should all be learning Paul's evangelistic message from Acts13 and not 1Cor15.

 

[Toknow]

You are totally allowed to believe how you want, I'm getting a little worn out, with debating things. I will Say, Matthew 22, sorta covers all those points.

14For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Wake up Kinda!!
I'm worn out too...
but it's worth it.

HOW is one chosen?

 

[Toknow]

So then it is not about loss of salvation?

What happens if one walks away from Christ?
If one ends his relational affiliation with HIm?

 

[Toknow]

You can believe what you want, don't really want to get caught up in any more debates. I pretty much layed out how I see it, most disagree. Life goes on.

If you want to quote scripture, you came to the right forum.

Not sure what we'd discuss.
God loves those that believe in Him and obey Him.
Whatever denomination they belong to......although we may not agree with some doctrine of some denominations.
Doctrine will not save us.
Believing IN God and obeying His teachings and acting on them...
will save us.

 

[Toknow]

Many ways to approach it I guess. Loss of salvation, faith, relationship, etc.

Loss is really not the best way to be discussing it IMO. It's too loaded and too charged by now. The biblical words are withdrawal, falling away, etc.

The word in Heb3:12 some of us were discussing is afistēmi - Lexicall per BDAG: of action that results in the distancing of pers. or thing from pers., thing, place, or condition. 1. to cause someone to move from a reference point, trans., in our lit. in ref. to altering allegiance cause to revolt, mislead; 2. to distance oneself from some pers. or thing: a. go away, withdraw; b. keep away, abstain.

It's part of what "Holy Brothers" & "partakers of [a] heavenly call/invitation" (Heb3:1) are being warned and commanded to not get into and to be guarded against (Heb3).

I agree that loss of salvation is a poor definiton of what happens.
It's not just lost....as if one wakes up one morning and it's not there anymore.

We use our will.
We decide it's not for us.
We decide we don't want to believe anymore...
or maybe believing is rquiring too much action...
or maybe we'd like to return to our favorite win.

Yes sir.
We decide that we no longer wish to be saved.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

Ok, so it sounds like you don’t differentiate between OT and NT. You have been ignoring those many, many verses about Christ nailing the OC to the cross. We are under the Law of Christ and not under the Law given through Moses.

There is nothing more I can discuss with you, since you seem to ignore the verses that I do give.

Love for God and man is in both covenants Exo20:6 Deut4:13 Heb8:10 John14:15-18

The law of God was given directly by God written by God Exo31:18 Exo20:1-17 Exo20:6

Jesus said there are no greater commandments than these. Mark12:30-31

Love to God never goes out of style- we can depend on our own feelings on how we are to love God or we can do what God says is loving Him. The difference between our will and God's Psa40:8

 

[Toknow]

Love for God and man is in both covenants Exo20:6 Deut4:13 Heb8:10 John14:15-18

The law of God was given directly by God written by God Exo31:18 Exo20:1-17 Exo20:6

Jesus said there are no greater commandments than these. Mark12:30-31

Love to God never goes out of style- we can depend on our own feelings on how we are to love God or we can do what God says is loving Him. The difference between our will and God's Psa40:8

I'd also say to the other member that the 10 commandments ARE part of the Law of Christ.

 

[Toknow]

Justified is justified.

Oh please, that is not about justification.

What is John 15:5-6 teaching?

It is NOT teaching about justification.
So what is it teaching about?


John 15:2, 5, 6

Berean Standard Bible Par ▾ Jesus the True Vine (Isaiah 27:1–13) 1“I am the true vine, and My Father is the keeper of the vineyard. 2He cuts off every branch in Me that bears no fruit, and every branch that does bear fruit, He prunes to make it even more fruitful. 5I am the vine and you are the branches. The one who remains in Me, and I in him, will bear much fruit. For apart from Me you can do nothing. 6If anyone does not remain in Me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers. Such branches are gathered up, thrown into the fire, and burned. ​

​

 

[SabbathBlessing]

I'd also say to the other member that the 10 commandments ARE part of the Law of Christ.

Thank you! That was on my mind when I was writing it but must have left that out.

Jesus is the great I AM in the OT John8:48 its not a different God! His standard of righteousness is eternal Psa119:172 Isa56:1-2 Psa 119:142 the foundation of His throne Psa89:14

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him

Great point. Amen brother.

 

[Toknow]

Thank you! That was on my mind when I was writing it but must have left that out.

Jesus is the great I AM in the OT John8:48 its not a different God!

Col 1:16 For by Him all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him

Great point. Amen brother.

I'm a sister !! (but a brother in Christ)

 

[studier]

I agree that loss of salvation is a poor definiton of what happens.
It's not just lost....as if one wakes up one morning and it's not there anymore.

We use our will.
We decide it's not for us.
We decide we don't want to believe anymore...
or maybe believing is rquiring too much action...
or maybe we'd like to return to our favorite win.

Yes sir.
We decide that we no longer wish to be saved.

And I think what Heb3 is providing to the discussion is in the hardening of hearts issue.

• In one two places (Heb3:7-8; Heb3:15) drawing from Ps95 it's active voice - Don't harden your hearts
• In another verse (Heb3:13) it's passive voice - Sin's deception/deceitfulness/pleasure/pleasantness does the hardening.

A quick search of this word used for "deceitfulness" in the NC provides:

• (Matt. 13:22 NKJ) "Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
• (Mk. 4:19 NKJ) "and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
• (Eph. 4:22 NKJ) that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
• (Col. 2:8 NKJ) Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
• (2 Thess. 2:10 NKJ) and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
• (Heb. 3:13 NKJ) but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
• (2 Pet. 2:13 NKJ) and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you,

Note the command in Col2:8 - so this is a matter of obedience to His command.

Other verses are His instruction - so a matter of doing His word

There another word that ties to this and is used in Heb3:9 - planaō - it's passive there and means to be mislead, to be deceived, to be made to wander, and it's used right in the midst of what we've been discussing in Heb3. It's what angered God..

We are commanded more than once in the NC not to be mislead - here for example:

NKJ 1Cor6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.​

​

So, not being deceived/mislead is also a matter of obedience to our Lord​

​

It's really a matter of don't harden our hearts each day - and not allowing other things to mislead us - because sin's deceit will add and assist any hardening we may let in.

All this obedience and doing what He says is biblical Faith which is an active relational concept.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

I'm a sister !! (but a brother in Christ)


View attachment 287240

Amen sister in Christ!

 

[Musicmaster]

One clear word from Jesus is enough:

Matthew 7:21 (KJV)
“Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.”

Jesus Himself says that calling Him “Lord” and believing is not enough on its own. Entrance into the kingdom is for the one who does the will of the Father.

So the line is not “belief only,” but belief that lives and obeys. If belief alone guaranteed salvation no matter what, Jesus would not have said “not every one… shall enter.”

What so many fail to understand is the definition of what the Kingdom of Heaven is. Some think it's...Heaven itself, which is false.

The coming Kingdom, where Christ will sit upon His Throne on this earth to rule the nations with a rod of iron, that is the Millennial Kingdom yet to come, which is the Kingdom we of Israel have been waiting for through these eons of time. Jesus was speaking to US, not to Gentiles in the four Old Testament Gospels (because He still upheld the Mosaic Law during that time before the cross, which can be proven).

Where it's true that IN CHRIST there is no Jew nor Gentile as to whom may be saved through faith alone, but in this world, and in the coming Kingdom, the differences still exist, just as there are still male and female today and will be in the coming Kingdom.

For those who uphold there being no differences in this world in relation to Jew and Gentiles without also dragging into their cruddy, nonsensical meanderings of reason the differences between male and female to this very day and beyond, that's nothing but a denial of reality, which so many perpetrate at the expense to personal integrity...which, sadly, seems to be no problem at all to some out there...

The many manifestations of replacement theology, sometimes being ever so subtle, it's all still rubbish from the pits of Hell.

MM

 

[Musicmaster]

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

Instead, and in defiance of this statement from Paul, some will cast about their meaningless hypotheticals as if they were realities they themselves have observed. When asked how they knew the departing soul lost his or her salvation, they present to us not one solid, absolute acid test for their vain babblings whereby they can point it out to anyone as an object lesson nor a proof for their vain beliefs.

Galatiance 2:21
I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

Contrary to this and other statements made in scripture, some demand obedience to the commands of Christ as if those commands were independent of the Mosaic Law...the very Law Jesus upheld, commanded obedience to before the cross and fulfilled AT the cross. There was a new commandment Jesus uttered, but never in all that dissertation did He downplay the rest of the Mosaic Law still in effect to this very day as the most powerful indictment against unbelievers the world over and through the ages.

Galatians 5:4
Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

Yet there are those who demand adherence to the Law as a maintenance effort for their ongoing salvation, as if justification is only temporary and/or contingent upon works...therefore easily lost on the basis of a line of demarcation that not one of the salvation-loss gang can ever define for us because they know, deep down, such a vain philosophy would expose their hypocrisy on account of it denigrating the Power in the shed Blood of Christ and the GIFT of His salvation.

MM

 

[Toknow]

And I think what Heb3 is providing to the discussion is in the hardening of hearts issue.

• In one two places (Heb3:7-8; Heb3:15) drawing from Ps95 it's active voice - Don't harden your hearts
• In another verse (Heb3:13) it's passive voice - Sin's deception/deceitfulness/pleasure/pleasantness does the hardening.

A quick search of this word used for "deceitfulness" in the NC provides:

• (Matt. 13:22 NKJ) "Now he who received seed among the thorns is he who hears the word, and the cares of this world and the deceitfulness of riches choke the word, and he becomes unfruitful.
• (Mk. 4:19 NKJ) "and the cares of this world, the deceitfulness of riches, and the desires for other things entering in choke the word, and it becomes unfruitful.
• (Eph. 4:22 NKJ) that you put off, concerning your former conduct, the old man which grows corrupt according to the deceitful lusts,
• (Col. 2:8 NKJ) Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and not according to Christ.
• (2 Thess. 2:10 NKJ) and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.
• (Heb. 3:13 NKJ) but exhort one another daily, while it is called "Today," lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
• (2 Pet. 2:13 NKJ) and will receive the wages of unrighteousness, as those who count it pleasure to carouse in the daytime. They are spots and blemishes, carousing in their own deceptions while they feast with you,

Note the command in Col2:8 - so this is a matter of obedience to His command.

Other verses are His instruction - so a matter of doing His word

There another word that ties to this and is used in Heb3:9 - planaō - it's passive there and means to be mislead, to be deceived, to be made to wander, and it's used right in the midst of what we've been discussing in Heb3. It's what angered God..

We are commanded more than once in the NC not to be mislead - here for example:

NKJ 1Cor6:9-10 Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, 10 nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God.​

​

So, not being deceived/mislead is also a matter of obedience to our Lord​

​

It's really a matter of don't harden our hearts each day - and not allowing other things to mislead us - because sin's deceit will add and assist any hardening we may let in.

All this obedience and doing what He says is biblical Faith which is an active relational concept.

I was going to say that if deceitfulness is allowed to continue...it is this exact deceit that we allow to fester in us that will lead to the hardening of the heart.

Hardening of the heart means that we have become callous to the deceit....we have become desensitized....
we no longer understand that it is deceit and it will eventually cause harm to us.
We no longer see it as sin or as disobedience...we make room for it in our lives.

Paul speaks about this in Romans 1:26....
he's teaching about idols but it could apply to anything.
Eventually God will give us over to what we wish.


Also, I'd mention pharaoh in Genesis.
Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

Exodus 8:32
32But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and did not let the people go.


Exodus 8:15
15But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart and would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.
God hardened his heart.


Exodus 4:21
21And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
Exodus 7:3
3But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I will multiply My signs and wonders in the land of Egypt,,,,



I see synergism throughout scripture.

 

[FlyingDove]

Actually I do believe that our performance is salvific

A new perspective - Loss of Salvation Thread

I'm no loner going to argue Greek words or respond to 50‑verse carpet bombings just to be personally attacked.

Here is a Scripture‑based answer to the OP. Anyone interested in civil debate based on the English translations. I'm willing to engage.

Jesus calls the Father God (Jn 20:17, Matt 27:46 & Jn 17:3), the Father calls the Son God (Heb 1:8-9) & Paul calls the Son God (Rom 9:5) & Peter calls Holy Spirit God (Acts 5:3–4).

The Human Condition & God's Rescue

All have sinned (Rom 3:23) - sins wage is death (Rom 6:23) - The only rescue if grace of God found in His Son Jesus

Jesus draws all (Jn 12:32), but not all will accept Him

Repentance TOWARD God = change your mind from unbelief to belief) & faith TOWARD the Lord Jesus Christ = trusting His sin‑atoning death & resurrection (Acts 20:21).

When a person understands they have sinned against a sovereign God & that Jesus died, was buried & rose again (1 Cor 15:1-4) for their justification (Rom 4:25) & they call on Him for forgiveness, Jesus who knows every heart (Rev 2:23; Jn 2:24–25), baptizes them with His forever‑indwelling Holy Spirit (John 14:16). This is an eternal‑life sealing (Eph 1:13–14; Eph 4:30; 2 Cor 1:22; 2 Cor 5:5; 2 Tim 1:14).

The New Covenant Salvation Pattern

Rom 10:17, believe/call on the Lord (Acts 2:21 & Rom 10:13) & receive the Holy Spirit (Matt 3:11 & Lk 11:13), all the woman at the well, living in sin had to do was acknowledge Jesus as Messiah & ask. Only Jesus can baptizes with the Holy Spirit & no deceivers will become receivers (Job 5:12-13)

Gentile Inclusion & the One New Man

Acts 10 is the 1st Gentile inclusion into the Holy Spirit indwelt New Covenant - the inauguration of the Body of Christ, where He makes Jew & Gentile one new man (Eph 2:15).

Acts 10:2 Cornelius didn't have to repent from unbelief he already believe in God. But he had never heard the gospel of Jesus Christ. Vs.39 Jesus died. Vs.40 Jesus rose on the 3rd day. Vs.43 that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Acts 10:44 While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word.

Cornelius & all the gentiles with him Heard the gosplel of Jesus Christ. He died for your sins was buried & rose on the 3rd day & Jesus knowing their hearts baptized them with His eternal life sealing Holy Spirit. These gentiles didn't get circumsised, confess every sin, obey the OC 613 commandments, get water baptized to receive GODS OWNERSHIP SECURITY SEAL yet All thier sins were forgiven Past-Present-Future Christ/God now living inside them FOREVER & EVER! Amen

45 All the circumcised believers who came with Peter were amazed, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles
(NOTE: Peter the leader of the Jewish Holy Spirit outpouring at Pentecost & the believing Jews with him were ASTONISHED that God had SAVED these gentiles thru FAITH ALONE. Also see Eph 2:8)

Scripture Confirmation

Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
(NOTE: They heard > believed > received the Holy Spirit)

1 Cor 12:13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.
(NOTE: For by ONE Holy Spirit are we ALL baptized into one body > whether Jew or Gentile)

Col 2:11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision "made without hands", in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
(NOTE: OC circumcision initiation was PHYSICIAL. The NT circumcision of Christ, "made without hands." is the inward, SPIRITUAL work of the Holy Spirit)

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.
(NOTE: A circumcision of the heart, in the spirit & NOT of the LAW)

Toknow, here's an answer to your ""what's a seal"" question:

σφραγίζω = “to seal”
This is the standard NT verb translated “seal” in passages like:
• Ephesians 1:13 — “you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise”
• Ephesians 4:30 — “you were sealed for the day of redemption”
• 2 Corinthians 1:22 — “God… sealed us and gave the Spirit in our hearts”
In every one of those verses, the Greek verb is σφραγίζω.

BDAG explicitly defines σφραγίζω as marking ownership, certifying security, and guaranteeing what is sealed. A seal that can be broken is not a seal. Paul’s Greek does not support a salvation that can be undone.

HELPS Word-studies 4972 sphragízō (from 4973 /sphragís, "a seal") – properly, to seal (affix) with a signet ring or other instrument to stamp (a roller or seal), i.e. to attest ownership, authorizing (validating) what is sealed.
4972 /sphragízō ("to seal") signifies ownership and the full security carried by the backing (full authority) of the owner. "Sealing" in the ancient world served as a "legal signature" which guaranteed the promise (contents) of what was sealed.
[Sealing was sometimes done in antiquity by the use of religious tattoos – again signifying "belonging to."]

Vine's Expository Dictionary of New Testament Words - "to seal" [ B-1,Verb,G4972, sphragizo ]
(d) ownership and security, together with destination, Revelation 7:3-Revelation 7:5 (as with the noun in Revelation 7:2; See A); the same three indications are conveyed in Ephesians 1:13, in the metaphor of the "sealing" of believers by the gift of the Holy Spirit, upon believing (i.e., at the time of their regeneration, not after a lapse of time in their spiritual life, "having also believed," not as AV, "after that ye believed;" the aorist participle marks the definiteness and completeness of the act of faith); the idea of destination is stressed by the phrase "the Holy Spirit of promise" (See also Ephesians 1:14); so Ephesians 4:30, "ye were sealed unto the day of redemption;" so in 2 Corinthians 1:22, where the Middle Voice intimates the special interest of the Sealer in His act;
(e) authentication by the believer (by receiving the witness of the Son) of the fact that "God is true," John 3:33; authentication by God in sealing the Son as the Giver of eternal life

In short ""to seal"" marking ownership, certifying security & guarantee given by the God's FOREVER indwelling (Jn 14:16) Holy Spirit SEAL.

And a Spirit sealed believer cannot return to unbelief, because God Himself keeps, indwells & guarantees the final redemption of those He saves (Eph 1:13–14, 4:30, John 6:39, 10:28–29, 1 Pet 1:5).

If Jesus accepts the sinner, the Father seals the sinner & the Spirit indwells the sinner, the only way that sinner could be lost is if God the Father-Son-Holy Spirit fail & they never fail.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

I was going to say that if deceitfulness is allowed to continue...it is this exact deceit that we allow to fester in us that will lead to the hardening of the heart.

Hardening of the heart means that we have become callous to the deceit....we have become desensitized....
we no longer understand that it is deceit and it will eventually cause harm to us.
We no longer see it as sin or as disobedience...we make room for it in our lives.

Paul speaks about this in Romans 1:26....
he's teaching about idols but it could apply to anything.
Eventually God will give us over to what we wish.


Also, I'd mention pharaoh in Genesis.
Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

Exodus 8:32
32But Pharaoh hardened his heart this time also, and did not let the people go.


Exodus 8:15
15But when Pharaoh saw that there was a respite, he hardened his heart and would not listen to them, as the Lord had said.
God hardened his heart.


Exodus 4:21
21And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do before Pharaoh all the miracles that I have put in your power. But I will harden his heart, so that he will not let the people go.
Exodus 7:3
3But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I will multiply My signs and wonders in the land of Egypt,,,,



I see synergism throughout scripture.

Great points!

Just to tag along these lines....

God gave His people manna from heaven but they complained and rejected it


Nub 11:1 Now when the people complained, it displeased the LORD; for the LORD heard it, and His anger was aroused. So the fire of the LORD burned among them, and consumed some in the outskirts of the camp. 2 Then the people cried out to Moses, and when Moses prayed to the LORD, the fire was quenched. 3 So he called the name of the place Taberah, because the fire of the LORD had burned among them.
4 Now the mixed multitude who were among them yielded to intense craving; so the children of Israel also wept again and said: “Who will give us meat to eat? 5 We remember the fish which we ate freely in Egypt, the cucumbers, the melons, the leeks, the onions, and the garlic; 6 but now our whole being is dried up; there is nothing at all except this manna before our eyes!”
7 Now the manna was like coriander seed, and its color like the color of bdellium. 8 The people went about and gathered it, ground it on millstones or beat it in the mortar, cooked it in pans, and made cakes of it; and its taste was like the taste of pastry prepared with oil. 9 And when the dew fell on the camp in the night, the manna fell on it.
10 Then Moses heard the people weeping throughout their families, everyone at the door of his tent; and the anger of the LORD was greatly aroused; Moses also was displeased. 11 So Moses said to the LORD, “Why have You afflicted Your servant? And why have I not found favor in Your sight, that You have laid the burden of all these people on me? 12 Did I conceive all these people? Did I beget them, that You should say to me, ‘Carry them in your bosom, as a guardian carries a nursing child,’ to the land which You swore to their fathers? 13 Where am I to get meat to give to all these people? For they weep all over me, saying, ‘Give us meat, that we may eat.’ 14 I am not able to bear all these people alone, because the burden is too heavy for me. 15 If You treat me like this, please kill me here and now—if I have found favor in Your sight—and do not let me see my wretchedness!”

So God gave them what they wanted

31 Now a wind went out from the LORD, and it brought quail from the sea and left them fluttering near the camp, about a day’s journey on this side and about a day’s journey on the other side, all around the camp, and about two cubits above the surface of the ground. 32 And the people stayed up all that day, all night, and all the next day, and gathered the quail (he who gathered least gathered ten homers); and they spread them out for themselves all around the camp. 33 But while the meat was still between their teeth, before it was chewed, the wrath of the LORD was aroused against the people, and the LORD struck the people with a very great plague.

2 Thess 2:10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This is why I believe the 4th commandment, greatest abomination and the 4th plague at the end of time are all related, but that's me. I could be wrong.