Revelation 19- A major Key to understanding Revelations
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Thanks.. I believe that was referring to the Army of the beast that was gathered on the Plains of Megiddo
( Armageddon ) .. But that army is not the entire population of the world.. From the Bible quotes it 200 million troops..
Revelation 9:16
(Revelation 9:16) "And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them."
I have to apologize for my responses. I am not the sharpest tack in the drawer. My thought pattern is slow.
When people say the great tribulation, which tribulation are they referring to? As an example, there was great tribulation when the first temple was destroyed, and there was great tribulation when the second temple was destroyed.
What does rule with a rod of iron mean? Rule could mean dominion, and rod of iron can mean death.
It is a lot easier to respond to a singular thought, at least for me. The bible is not a simple book.
Rod of iron can mean Jesus won't be a push over ruler that people can fool or take advantage of.
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A person can be subject to great tribulation.. Meaning that person is suffering a lot of different troubles and pain.. A good example of this would be Job of the book of Job in the Old testament.. In this case it was great tribulation because one person suffered a lot of physical and emotional suffering in their lives..
A group can suffer great tribulation.. The Jews in Jerusalem that became under the siege of the Romans in 70 AD suffered from starvation, even to the point of engaging in cannibalism in the end when the Roman forces broke through the walls, the Jewish population was slaughtered..
Followers of the LORD Jesus will suffer great tribulation in the end times because they will be persecuted.. Many of them will be beheaded because they will refuse to worship the image of the beast.. So in this case it will be great tribulation because millions upon millions of people will be suffering..
In the 1000 year future kingdom ruled by Jesus and His Saints.. Jesus will rule the people of the world ( not the Saints ) very strictly.. Bring wrath upon them if they refuse to do as He commands them to do.. You can read about this in the OT book of Zechariah chapter 14 which talks about the future ""Day of the LORD"" which is talking about the return of the LORD Jesus and His future rule on the earth.. take note of what will happen to the people who refuse to come to Jerusalem to keep the feast of tabernacles..
Yes indeed, i agree it is easier to deal with one point at a time.. And yeah the Bible is not a simple collection of books..
I like your reply.
Our understanding of the time frame differs. I would place Zechariah chapter 14 after the millennium, along with Ezekiel chapters 34 thru 39. Also Isaiah 49:17-23, as well as many other chapters in the Old Testament.
I believe as did the Jews, according to the Talmud, that the Millennium represents a Shabbat of the earth, aligning with the seventh day of rest. ( 2Pe 3:8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.)
Well i base my chronological timings on the Book of Revelation chapters 19 and 20.. These chapters give detail to the return of Jesus ( The day of the LORD ) and the establishment of His 1000 year kingdom on earth and at the end of that 1000 years the final rebellion and then the last judgement.. So if you read the chapters as they are you will see how all the points are linked chronologically..
I would agree that the war detailed in Ezekiel 39 happens at the end of the 1000 years.. The Book of Revelations say that satan who was bound in chains in the bottomless pit for the 1000 years will go out and deceive the nations and the book of Revelations specifically mentions Gog - Magog..
Revelation 20:7 - Revelation 20:9
(Revelation 20:7-9) "And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, {8} And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. {9} And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them."
So this battle comes 1000 years after the battle of Armageddon which is shown to happen before the 1000 years when the Word of God ( Jesus) captures satan and has him bound in chains and cast into the bottomless pit and also casts the Beast (Anti-christ) and the false prophet into the Lake of Fire..
Revelation 19:19 - Revelation 19:20
(Revelation 19:19-20) "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. {20} And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone."
Revelation 20:1 - Revelation 20:3
(Revelation 20:1-3) "And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand. {2} And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years, {3} And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season."
While i do not reject the concept of the 1000 year sabbath as being the 1000 years of the rule of Jesus and i also think that the 7000 year plan of God might be correct.. I would seriously advise you to avoid trusting in the Talmud... The Talmud is not the inspired word of God but a book of postulations of Jewish rabies..
Anyway i hope you can read both Revelation 19 and 20 in full and see how they are chronological in nature and how that reveals the timings of what happens before the 1000 years and what happens after the 1000 years..
Layer together Daniel 7 with Revelation 19-20.
Daniel 7 explains the vision of the four beasts representing the major empires of mankind that will rule, with a little horn growing from the fourth beast that persecutes the Almighty's people until the "Ancient of Days" passes judgment, destroys the fourth beast, and gives rule to the saints. So it is a very high-level summary of the timeline of humanity with the Almighty's kingdom at the end. We read the following...
Daniel 7:11-12
11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.
12 As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time.
Verse 12 specifically details that the rule is taken away from those of the nations who remain after the beast is destroyed, and given to the saints. The saints rule over those who remain.
I believe we mainly agree on a timeline to some extent. I believe our basic differences might be within what occurs during the millennium. What do you believe the statement, reign with Christ to entail?
The Talmud only reinforced what I had already believed. The Jews were given responsibility for the oracles of God, so there can be material in the Talmud that can be worthy of consideration.
I am of the opinion that the fourth beast was the fourth kingdom, which has long been gone.
So then do you also believe that since the fourth kingdom's destruction that The Almighty has already passed final judgment on the world and we've been living through the rule of the saints all this time? Daniel's vision goes from the the first beasts to the fourth beast's destruction by the "son of man" and the saints ruling, effectively giving us a timeline.
Do I choose A or B, or is there a C, or even maybe a D?
What age are we living in? We know that the age of the law, and the temple of stone are gone, as well as the northern and southern kingdoms. Are we now in the age of the Gentiles? Is there judgment in each individual age? Was there judgment in the pre-flood age?
1Pe 3:19 By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 1Pe 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit. Mat 27:52-3 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
I have many more questions than answers.
Here are some of my beliefs. I believe the 144,000 were resurrected at the time of Christ being the firstfruits. That they are now reigning with Christ. That those marked in their foreheads in Eze 9:4 (And the LORD said unto him, Go through the midst of the city, through the midst of Jerusalem, and set a mark upon the foreheads of the men that sigh and that cry for all the abominations that be done in the midst thereof.) and Eze 9:11 (And, behold, the man clothed with linen, which had the inkhorn by his side, reported the matter, saying, I have done as thou hast commanded me.) are, at least, part of the 144,000.
Rev 14:1-5 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb. And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
Notice that the next verse in Revelation 14, which is Rev 14:6, (And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.) Can be correlated to Pentecost in Acts chapter two IMO. Why should we expect this to be future, when it has already happened?
I think of you read chapter 20 you’ll learn about the judgement Jesus and his apostles taught the church about
“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
Revelation 20:12-13, 15 KJV
If you care about continuity and consistency in doctrine look how that event and final judgement is supported throughout
Whether Jesus taught it
““Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live,
and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”
John 5:28-
Or Paul after
“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
2 Corinthians 5:10 KJV
“God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”
Romans 2:6-8 NIV
When you read revelation look for biblical doctrine that’s established prior in scripture like the judgement then you’ll notice the continuity and less confusion this imagery
the dead, small and great, stand before God;….. and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. ….whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
is about the doctrine
( rev ) the dead, small and great, stand before God;….. ( John ) all who are in their graves will hear his voice and come out—( Paul ) we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.”
( rev) the dead were judged….according to their works……( John ) those who have done what is good will rise to live,
and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.”( Paul )
God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.
But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.”….
Doctrine always remains consistant things like a vision in revelation show imagery of the doctrine wheras the epistles explain it and the gospel established it ……revelation reveals the biblical doctrine and story in a vision and with imagery …..
Could you please clarify what I said that you totally disagree with. I apologize for being slow to follow others thoughts.
Also I now see an error in my original post. The statement, The only ones left on the earth are the dead who were not written in the book of life, should read, The only ones left on the earth are the dead who were not in Christ.
It's best to remain focused on one question at a time. Suspend any notions about "age" because it really isn't necessary for what The Almighty has shared with us.
The Almighty gave Daniel, his highly favored servant, a glimpse of mankind's timeline with both visions of Nebuchadnezar's statue and the four beasts. Both visions end with the kingdom of the Messiah reigning on earth. At no point has humanity witnessed the Messiah reigning on earth. Is he reigning in heaven? Yes, but reigning in heaven is different than reigning on earth, as Revelation 12 says satan and his angels were cast down, having no more place in heaven after the Messiah appears there. The devil came down with great wrath, knowing his time on earth is short. Scripture says the Messiah will reign on earth from Jerusalem.
We can use this as a marker to show that both of Daniel's visions have not yet concluded:
Revelation 21:1-2 - The kingdom of heaven comes down to earth as the New Jerusalem.
Daniel 2:34,35,44 - The Almighty's kingdom will consume all other kingdoms and will stand forever.
Daniel 7:14 - All dominion of all nations is given to the "Son of Man"; everlasting dominion.
The nations must exist on earth for there to be dominion to give.
The nations will be forced to obey the rule of the Messiah when He comes (i.e., rod of iron).
I don't doubt there's some truth in that. Your reply proves you see OT parallels in the book of Revelation. Might I point out that if the Messiah is a fulfillment of King David, recall that in 1 Chronicles 27, King David has a royal army of 288000 that rotates, which is double that of 144000. In Revelation, we read two instances of the number 144000: Rev 7 and Rev 14. The first 144000 is mentioned as being marked before the trumpets of judgment begin. The second 144000 is identified on Mount Zion after the beast of the earth is introduced.
So, at minimum, there are 144000 on Earth tasked with "enduring" and "witnessing".
There is a connection, but not quite what you've concluded. We can align events in Revelation with Acts and Matthew to synchronize these books.
In Matthew 24, the Messiah gives his apostles a rundown of events leading to the destruction of the temple and then to the coming of the Son of Man:
1. Growing Deception
2. Wars and rumors of wars
3. Famine
4. Disease
5. Persecution of his apostles (note)
6. The Gospel will be preached (note)
7. Destruction of Jerusalem
8. Great Tribulation
9. Warning of false preachers
10. Great Signs in Heaven (Sign of Son of Man)
11. Regathering of saints
First, notice that He is speaking to His Apostles.
Second, notice that He says THEY will be persecuted.
Third, notice that they are persecuted before judgment falls on Jerusalem.
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Now notice that Revelation 6-11 describes the same order of events but with more detail, so we can sync a few to Matthew 24:
1. White horse; conquering
2. Red horse; Peace taken away (war)
3. Black horse; economic (famine)
4. Pale horse; death (pestilence/disease)
5. Servants of God slain for testimony (persecution of His apostles after they preach the gospel)
6. Wrath of the Lamb
7. 144000 Servants of Israel are sealed
8. Trumpets of judgment
9. A little book is given, and John is told that preaching must happen AGAIN (before many people, nations and tongues Rev 10:11)
10. Two witnesses preach and then are killed
11. Witnesses are resurrected and ascend to heaven (regathering of saints)
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We agree that the preaching of the gospel happened once after the Messiah ascended to heaven, but before the 70AD destruction of the temple and Jerusalem. We also know that the servants were slain before the 70AD destruction. So we can sync a few more events.
1. White horse; conquering (deception)
2. Red horse; Peace taken away (war)
3. Black horse; economic (famine)
4. Pale horse; death (pestilence/disease)
5. Servants of God slain for testimony (persecution of His apostles after they preach the gospel = Acts of the Apostles)
6. Wrath of the Lamb (70AD destruction)
7. 144000 Servants of Israel are sealed
8. Trumpets of judgment (Great Tribulation)
9. A little book is given, and John is told that preaching must happen AGAIN (before many people, nations and tongues Rev 10:11)
[Why must preaching happen again? One can only deduce that the gospel has been corrupted at this point by false preachers since the apostles last preached it...exactly what the Messiah warned would happen after the Great Tribulation.]
10. Two witnesses preach and then are killed
11. Witnesses are resurrected and ascend to heaven (regathering of saints)
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So notice that after an initial preaching of the gospel, the apostles are killed, the temple is destroyed, and then a great tribulation occurs...after great tribulation, there's ANOTHER preaching of the true gospel required because false teachers have been successful in corrupting the truth throughout the centuries since the time of the apostles. This (re)preaching must happen before the Messiah returns to gather His Saints.
You just dismissed everything I said, but that is OK, because I agree with you, that we should focus on one thing. So I would like to focus on one of the first things you said, which is the Kingdom of the Messiah, reigning on earth.
So that we might be on the same page, how does this kingdom relate to the Kingdom of God, and the Kingdom of Heaven?
"Everything"?
The kingdom of God, Heaven, and the Messiah are synonymous. It's the reign of the Almighty with Messiah as king, evident by the works of life: healing, restoration, resurrection, peace, truth, etc. (as opposed to the works of the devil, which are sickness, death, pain, lies, etc.). This is why when Messiah was here, He preached that the kingdom of heaven was near among them. We also have a record of the transfiguration when the apostles saw a vision of Moses and Elijah appear with the Messiah, who shone with light.
Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
If the Kingdom of God comes not with observation, and the kingdom was within them at that time how does that relate with waiting for a future kingdom? Isn't Luke saying the Kingdom was present with them?