Revelation 19- A major Key to understanding Revelations

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

If the Kingdom of God comes not with observation, and the kingdom was within them at that time how does that relate with waiting for a future kingdom? Isn't Luke saying the Kingdom was present with them?

The kingdom is present now inside each believer, but the kingdom has not yet come in fullness and power. It did briefly come when Jesus was transfigured on the mountain, but he was killed shortly afterwards. So the kingdom of God coming in power on earth will happen shortly before he returns, or some might say when he returns.

And he said to them, Amen I say to you that, There are some of the ones here standing, the ones who in no way shall taste of death, until whenever they should behold the kingdom of God coming in power. Mark 9:1​

​

And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and power, and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. Revelation 12:10​

 

[tttallison]

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

If the Kingdom of God comes not with observation, and the kingdom was within them at that time how does that relate with waiting for a future kingdom? Isn't Luke saying the Kingdom was present with them?

OK, so you are saying this reigning with power will be during the Millennium?

 

[Yahshua]

Luk 17:20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.

If the Kingdom of God comes not with observation, and the kingdom was within them at that time how does that relate with waiting for a future kingdom? Isn't Luke saying the Kingdom was present with them?

Yes.

 

[Yahshua]

OK, so you are saying this reigning with power will be during the Millennium?

This is what Paul's says to the Romans. And this is after he received the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:18-26 [brackets mine]
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the [creation] waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the [creation] was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the [creation] itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole [creation] groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.


What is "Holy Spirit-filled" Paul waiting for if the kingdom of God is (truthfully) already in him? What is he hoping for that the entire creation is also waiting for?

Again, is the kingdom of God already in him? Yes. But he earnestly awaits for it to be manifested outside of him in the form of a transformed, incorruptable body that is no longer subject to death. In fact, he argues that this is what the entire world is waiting for: the manifestation of the children of God, all transfigured exactly how The Messiah was.

And the city that they all will live in will not need any light because they all will be shining with the glory of Yah just like the Messiah will be, as adopted brothers and sisters. This will happen here, on earth.

This has not happened yet. Humanity still dies. Believers still die. Yet the last enemy to be destroyed is death as said in Revelation 20:14.

The first enemy of humanity was satan and he introduced the second enemy, death, through his deception. Death conquered is the hope Paul speaks about. The kingdom of God is life everlasting.

 

[tttallison]

This is what Paul's says to the Romans. And this is after he received the Holy Spirit.

Romans 8:18-26 [brackets mine]
18 For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory which shall be revealed in us.

19 For the earnest expectation of the [creation] waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.

20 For the [creation] was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope, Because the [creation] itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole [creation] groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.

24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?

25 But if we hope for that we see not, then do we with patience wait for it.


What is "Holy Spirit-filled" Paul waiting for if the kingdom of God is (truthfully) already in him? What is he hoping for that the entire creation is also waiting for?

Again, is the kingdom of God already in him? Yes. But he earnestly awaits for it to be manifested outside of him in the form of a transformed, incorruptable body that is no longer subject to death. In fact, he argues that this is what the entire world is waiting for: the manifestation of the children of God, all transfigured exactly how The Messiah was.

And the city that they all will live in will not need any light because they all will be shining with the glory of Yah just like the Messiah will be, as adopted brothers and sisters. This will happen here, on earth.

This has not happened yet. Humanity still dies. Believers still die. Yet the last enemy to be destroyed is death as said in Revelation 20:14.

The first enemy of humanity was satan and he introduced the second enemy, death, through his deception. Death conquered is the hope Paul speaks about. The kingdom of God is life everlasting.

Was your answer yes as to whether the kingdom comes during the millenium?

 

[Yahshua]

Was your answer yes as to whether the kingdom comes during the millenium?

Sorry, I didn't specifically answer your question.

Yes, one can say it starts during the Millennium because Messiah will be here putting down rule and breaking the nations. I'd argue the manifested kingdom comes in its full glory after the millennium, but i'm likely splitting hairs. The millennium is for cleaning up the world to get it ready for the manifested kingdom.

Zechariah 3
And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the Lord stood by.

6 And the angel of the Lord protested unto Joshua, saying,

7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.

9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

10 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

The Millennium is the day of clean up. The Day of the Lord; the seventh day; the Sabbath. Following that, is the eighth day when the Almighty will dwell with mankind forever in the manifested kingdom.

 

[SabbathBlessing]

You have the wedding, you have the judgment, you have the end of the beast and the false prophet, you have the dragon locked up for a thousand years, you have the first resurrection, and you have the end of all living humanity that was not invited to the wedding. The only ones left on the earth are the dead who were not written in the book of life.

What think you?

When Jesus comes those who are in Christ that are dead will hear His voice and raise from the ground those alive will be caught up so both groups will meet God in the air. This is the first resurrection for those saved,


1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord

Those alive at the time of Jesus coming that are not in Christ, will die the first death by the brightness of His Glory

When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8
Let the wicked perish at the presence of God (Psalm 68:2).

The second resurrection after the 1000 years will be for those not written in the Book of Life and will be for judgement and death along with Satan. Satan is bound to the earth for a 1000 years with no one to tempt while the saints will be with the LORD. This is where Judgement takes place where the saints will judge angels so they will all see why those are not saved based on decisions they made. This happens during the 1000 years. Once that is over Jesus will resurrect those not in Him for judgement/death.

The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished Revelation 20:5

Once this happens God will wipe away all tears, no more death, no more sorrow, He will create and New Heaven and New Earth and no more sin forevermore and the saints will live with Christ forever. Lets pray we are all in the first reselection. Rev20:6

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Could you please clarify what I said that you totally disagree with. I apologize for being slow to follow others thoughts.

Also I now see an error in my original post. The statement, The only ones left on the earth are the dead who were not written in the book of life, should read, The only ones left on the earth are the dead who were not in Christ.

I don’t think I said I totally disagreed with anything . I was just trying to get you to look at what Jesus and his apostles were teaching believers to believe …..about death and also the judgement God has been telling mankind about all along ….this true concept

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die,

but after this the judgment:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

ado we have an appointment with death and also the judgement God has clearly stated throughout scriptire repetetively .


Believers “in Christ “ don’t get removed from the earth but through the doctrine of baptism , they are recognized by God to have died already with Christ !! So thier appointment with death is no longer needed !
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

all humans are bound to death by sin , it’s an appointment we all have to make but the doctrine shows us that we can die with Christ and his body . Like again paul teaches us here

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism,


wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So that appointment with death is accounted for. But this remains


“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This was being taught to the same believers in the same letters repetetively these warnings are just as valid and true

“But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.


But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭

They aren’t taken from the earth but they are called to repentance and upright living so they are prepared for that day he’s been earning us for for a long long time that all of us have to face

“Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.

For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-

remember when this happened ?

“And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:51-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this is probably relevant to the matter as well I bet given the promises in Israel’s prior covenant to raise them up from the graves and give them a land and kingdom of thier own that would never fall again when the messiah came. Just like the New Testament promises the people the same but better ……..when he returns


But honestly it doesn’t matter or mean you are wrong if I or others might disagree or see it differently my friend it’s just a place where people share thier views and discuss them . There’s really no argument worth having or anything but discussion in the right spirit is beneficial sometimes


God bless

 

[Pilgrimshope]

When Jesus comes those who are in Christ that are dead will hear His voice and raise from the ground those alive will be caught up so both groups will meet God in the air. This is the first resurrection for those saved,


1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord

Those alive at the time of Jesus coming that are not in Christ, will die the first death by the brightness of His Glory

When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8
Let the wicked perish at the presence of God (Psalm 68:2).

The second resurrection after the 1000 years will be for those not written in the Book of Life and will be for judgement and death along with Satan. Satan is bound to the earth for a 1000 years with no one to tempt while the saints will be with the LORD. This is where Judgement takes place where the saints will judge angels so they will all see why those are not saved based on decisions they made. This happens during the 1000 years. Once that is over Jesus will resurrect those not in Him for judgement/death.

The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished Revelation 20:5

Once this happens God will wipe away all tears, no more death, no more sorrow, He will create and New Heaven and New Earth and no more sin forevermore and the saints will live with Christ forever. Lets pray we are all in the first reselection. Rev20:6

What do you make of this resurrection of the ot saints of the tribes of isreal ?

“And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:51-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

maybe the first testament promised the first resurrection to the saints of people it was given to ?The tribes of isreal ?

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬


and maybe Jesus was promising to do this again at the end of the New Testament when he returns ?

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:40‬ ‭

New Testament Old Testament each testament promised a resurrection to the people it was given . One was promised to the tribes of Israel in the ot for when the messiah came forth

Ot people

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Nt people singing about Jesus and salvation

“After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; and cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:9-10‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The second group shouts about the father and son but the first group appears in sion ( heavenky jerusalem ) with the lamb

“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. …..and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. ……These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1-4‬ ‭

So you have two groups of people two testaments one according to each group each promising a resurrection


“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. ( remember many saints who slept arose after his resirrextion with him they rose up )

But every man in his own order: Christ , the firstfruits; ( first resurrection )


afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.” ( the resurrection when Jesus retirns below )
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:20, 23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬


There’s a resirrection that corresponds to the promises Gid made in them to the people they were given to

the law and prophets for the tribes of isreal ….. and then the gospel and epistles for all creation . Each testament promised a coming of the messiah and with his coming a resurrection


“Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live: and whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?”
‭‭John‬ ‭11:25-26‬ ‭KJV‬‬


When Jesus comes there’s life for his people then And also when he returns again

 

[SabbathBlessing]

What do you make of this resurrection of the ot saints of the tribes of isreal ?

“And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:51-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

maybe the first testament promised the first resurrection to the saints of people it was given to ?The tribes of isreal ?
“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬


and maybe Jesus was promising to do this again at the end of the New Testament when he returns ?

This is referring to a special resurrection when Jesus rose Mat 27:51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Everyone else is sleeping in their graves who are dead in Christ until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

“And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:40‬ ‭

That's right this is for everyone else. There is no mention of any other resurrection or judgement until Jesus comes.

Ot people

“And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭7:4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Israel has always represented God's people- His sons and daughters, its spiritual Israel not literal Israel because many tribes do not even exist anymore. We are one people in Christ not based on nationality but faith Gal3:26-29 Rom9:6

So you have two groups of people two testaments one according to each group each promising a resurrection

The two groups at the end of time are the saved and the lost. Those saved will be part of the first resurrection "blessed and holy are those who are in the first resurrection" Rev 20:6 the rest of the dead did not rise until after the 1000 years for the saved. This is when Judgement happens and all sin/sinners Satan will no longer exist. This is clearly spelled out in Rev 20

 

[Pilgrimshope]

This is referring to a special resurrection when Jesus rose Mat 27:51 Then, behold, the veil of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom; and the earth quaked, and the rocks were split, 52 and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; 53 and coming out of the graves after His resurrection, they went into the holy city and appeared to many.

Everyone else is sleeping in their graves who are dead in Christ until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

That's right this is for everyone else. There is no mention of any other resurrection or judgement until Jesus comes.

Israel has always represented God's people- His sons and daughters, its spiritual Israel not literal Israel because many tribes do not even exist anymore. We are one people in Christ not based on nationality but faith Gal3:26-29 Rom9:6

The two groups at the end of time are the saved and the lost. Those saved will be part of the first resurrection "blessed and holy are those who are in the first resurrection" Rev 20:6 the rest of the dead did not rise until after the 1000 years for the saved. This is when Judgement happens and all sin/sinners Satan will no longer exist. This is clearly spelled out in Rev 20

“Everyone else is sleeping in their graves who are dead in Christ until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.”

right that’s the second resurrection that’s what I’m saying the other is the first of the “ firstfruits “

“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. But every man in his own order: Christ , the firstfruits; ( first resurrection of the saints of Israel who were sleeping )


afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”( the second resirrextion at the end when Jesus returns to gather his people )
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:20, 23‬ ‭KJV‬‬


theres no “ special resurrection “ in the doctrine there’s one promises repetetively to Israel in tbe ot . And there’s another one promised to christians waiting for Christs return in the nt . That’s why we’re told of two resurrections.

see this ? This isn’t happening on earth

“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: and they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. ….. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬


thats happening here

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


The ot saints who rose are those we repeatedly see in heaven before the throne because they rose up with Christ in that generation as promised and we also who wait for him now will rise up with him when he returns a second time to raise up his people. Each testament promises the messiah will come the ot promises Jesus forst cominng in the gospel and the gospel and epistles promise his return a second time before it’s all destroyed and the new is revealed


That’s my only point there in the Bible biblically I mean there’s a resurrection promised to the group of people the testament was given to.

ot promise to israel declares the first resurrection of Jesus and the firstfruits the saints who slept since the beginning …..awaiting the promises of life he’s made them in a testament

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12-

And then after that …….to the people of the nt all creation and nations ….the gospel declares the “ second “ resurrection

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The group of folks already in heaven were redeemed already from the earth in the first resurrection

….. revelation is not a chronological timeline but it’s structured like Daniel where a bunch of shorter visions layer upon each other to reveal more of the story

Seals , Trumpets , and vials are thier own layer ra her than a timeline again like daniels statue , his four beasts with seven heads and ten horns , or his four kingdoms which will rise up and rule they are showing the same subject matter but giving different perspectives


Of course this is just my own opinion of what scripture says I’m no one special or official or anything just discussing the Bible

 

[SabbathBlessing]

“Everyone else is sleeping in their graves who are dead in Christ until the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.”

right that’s the second resurrection that’s what I’m saying the other is the first of the “ firstfruits “

“But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. But every man in his own order: Christ , the firstfruits; ( first resurrection of the saints of Israel who were sleeping )


afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.”( the second resirrextion at the end when Jesus returns to gather his people )
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭15:20, 23‬ ‭KJV‬‬


theres no “ special resurrection “ in the doctrine there’s one promises repetetively to Israel in tbe ot . And there’s another one promised to christians waiting for Christs return in the nt . That’s why we’re told of two resurrections.

see this ? This isn’t happening on earth

“And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads. And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps: and they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth. ….. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭14:1-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬


thats happening here

“but ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, to the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭12:22-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


The ot saints who rose are those we repeatedly see in heaven before the throne because they rose up with Christ in that generation as promised and we also who wait for him now will rise up with him when he returns a second time to raise up his people. Each testament promises the messiah will come the ot promises Jesus forst cominng in the gospel and the gospel and epistles promise his return a second time before it’s all destroyed and the new is revealed


That’s my only point there in the Bible biblically I mean there’s a resurrection promised to the group of people the testament was given to.

ot promise to israel declares the first resurrection of Jesus and the firstfruits the saints who slept since the beginning …..awaiting the promises of life he’s made them in a testament

“Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel. And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭37:12-

And then after that …….to the people of the nt all creation and nations ….the gospel declares the “ second “ resurrection

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The group of folks already in heaven were redeemed already from the earth in the first resurrection

….. revelation is not a chronological timeline but it’s structured like Daniel where a bunch of shorter visions layer upon each other to reveal more of the story

Seals , Trumpets , and vials are thier own layer ra her than a timeline again like daniels statue , his four beasts with seven heads and ten horns , or his four kingdoms which will rise up and rule they are showing the same subject matter but giving different perspectives


Of course this is just my own opinion of what scripture says I’m no one special or official or anything just discussing the Bible

I think we are going in circles I already addressed this so I will agree to disagree.

God bless!

 

[tttallison]

Sorry, I didn't specifically answer your question.

Yes, one can say it starts during the Millennium because Messiah will be here putting down rule and breaking the nations. I'd argue the manifested kingdom comes in its full glory after the millennium, but i'm likely splitting hairs. The millennium is for cleaning up the world to get it ready for the manifested kingdom.

Zechariah 3
And he shewed me Joshua the high priest standing before the angel of the Lord, and Satan standing at his right hand to resist him.

2 And the Lord said unto Satan, The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan; even the Lord that hath chosen Jerusalem rebuke thee: is not this a brand plucked out of the fire?

3 Now Joshua was clothed with filthy garments, and stood before the angel.

4 And he answered and spake unto those that stood before him, saying, Take away the filthy garments from him. And unto him he said, Behold, I have caused thine iniquity to pass from thee, and I will clothe thee with change of raiment.

5 And I said, Let them set a fair mitre upon his head. So they set a fair mitre upon his head, and clothed him with garments. And the angel of the Lord stood by.

6 And the angel of the Lord protested unto Joshua, saying,

7 Thus saith the Lord of hosts; If thou wilt walk in my ways, and if thou wilt keep my charge, then thou shalt also judge my house, and shalt also keep my courts, and I will give thee places to walk among these that stand by.

8 Hear now, O Joshua the high priest, thou, and thy fellows that sit before thee: for they are men wondered at: for, behold, I will bring forth my servant the Branch.

9 For behold the stone that I have laid before Joshua; upon one stone shall be seven eyes: behold, I will engrave the graving thereof, saith the Lord of hosts, and I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day.

10 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.

The Millennium is the day of clean up. The Day of the Lord; the seventh day; the Sabbath. Following that, is the eighth day when the Almighty will dwell with mankind forever in the manifested kingdom.

I haven't read Zechariah 3 for awhile, but this is always how I understood it, at least the last three verses.

Verse 8 "---I will bring forth my servant the Branch" I believe this to be the seventieth week of Daniel.

Verse 9 "---I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. The middle of the seventieth week of Daniel.

Verse 10 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
Jhn 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

Will those of the eighth day live forever?

 

[tttallison]

I haven't read Zechariah 3 for awhile, but this is always how I understood it, at least the last three verses.

Verse 8 "---I will bring forth my servant the Branch" I believe this to be the seventieth week of Daniel.

Verse 9 "---I will remove the iniquity of that land in one day. The middle of the seventieth week of Daniel.

Verse 10 In that day, saith the Lord of hosts, shall ye call every man his neighbour under the vine and under the fig tree.
Jhn 1:48 Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before that Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee.

Will those of the eighth day live forever?

I don’t think I said I totally disagreed with anything . I was just trying to get you to look at what Jesus and his apostles were teaching believers to believe …..about death and also the judgement God has been telling mankind about all along ….this true concept

“And as it is appointed unto men once to die,

but after this the judgment:”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:27‬ ‭KJV‬‬

ado we have an appointment with death and also the judgement God has clearly stated throughout scriptire repetetively .


Believers “in Christ “ don’t get removed from the earth but through the doctrine of baptism , they are recognized by God to have died already with Christ !! So thier appointment with death is no longer needed !
“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

all humans are bound to death by sin , it’s an appointment we all have to make but the doctrine shows us that we can die with Christ and his body . Like again paul teaches us here

“in whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ: buried with him in baptism,


wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:11-12‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So that appointment with death is accounted for. But this remains


“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men;

but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

This was being taught to the same believers in the same letters repetetively these warnings are just as valid and true

“But because of your stubbornness and your unrepentant heart, you are storing up wrath against yourself for the day of God’s wrath, when his righteous judgment will be revealed.

God “will repay each person according to what they have done.” To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life.


But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger.

There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. For God does not show favoritism.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭2:5-11‬ ‭

They aren’t taken from the earth but they are called to repentance and upright living so they are prepared for that day he’s been earning us for for a long long time that all of us have to face

“Now all has been heard; here is the conclusion of the matter: Fear God and keep his commandments, for this is the duty of all mankind.

For God will bring every deed into judgment, including every hidden thing, whether it is good or evil.”
‭‭Ecclesiastes‬ ‭12:13-

remember when this happened ?

“And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; and the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭27:51-53‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this is probably relevant to the matter as well I bet given the promises in Israel’s prior covenant to raise them up from the graves and give them a land and kingdom of thier own that would never fall again when the messiah came. Just like the New Testament promises the people the same but better ……..when he returns


But honestly it doesn’t matter or mean you are wrong if I or others might disagree or see it differently my friend it’s just a place where people share thier views and discuss them . There’s really no argument worth having or anything but discussion in the right spirit is beneficial sometimes


God bless

When do you see the judgment coming?

 

[tttallison]

When Jesus comes those who are in Christ that are dead will hear His voice and raise from the ground those alive will be caught up so both groups will meet God in the air. This is the first resurrection for those saved,


1 Thess 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord

Those alive at the time of Jesus coming that are not in Christ, will die the first death by the brightness of His Glory

When the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God 2 Thessalonians 1:7, 8
Let the wicked perish at the presence of God (Psalm 68:2).

The second resurrection after the 1000 years will be for those not written in the Book of Life and will be for judgement and death along with Satan. Satan is bound to the earth for a 1000 years with no one to tempt while the saints will be with the LORD. This is where Judgement takes place where the saints will judge angels so they will all see why those are not saved based on decisions they made. This happens during the 1000 years. Once that is over Jesus will resurrect those not in Him for judgement/death.

The rest of the dead did not live again until the thousand years were finished Revelation 20:5

Once this happens God will wipe away all tears, no more death, no more sorrow, He will create and New Heaven and New Earth and no more sin forevermore and the saints will live with Christ forever. Lets pray we are all in the first reselection. Rev20:6

I made a mistake in my original post when I said the only ones left are the dead in the earth who were not written in the Lamb's book of life. I meant to say the only ones left are the dead in the earth who were not in Christ.

I believe the resurrection at the end of the Millennium is the resurrection of Ezekiel 37.

 

[BereanBride]

This thread is named Revelation 19, A major key to understanding Revelation, but I'm not really seeing any major key revealed here. What am I missing?

I will provide a significant key to understanding Revelation, found in Daniel. We all refer to the 7-year period as 'The 7-year Tribulation', when actually the 7 years we are really referring to is 'Daniel's 70th week', and this is what scripture says about Daniel's 70 weeks.

Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks are determined, For your people and for your holy city, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity,........................................
Who and What are the seventy week periods determined for - The Jewish People and Jerusalem. This is a statement that excludes the world outside of Israel during the fulfilment of Daniel's 70th week. We may try to dismiss this as not really meaning what it says, but the truth is it would read just fine without the exclusive determination (“Seventy weeks are determined, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity,........). It is there for a specific reason, not to be dismissed or ignored.

Only Revelation chapters 11-14 are exclusively about Israel. These chapters alone are the 7 years of Daniel's 70th week, and they even define so via the 2 time durations given, 42 months of 2 Jewish witnesses (Rev 11:2,3) and Antichrist chasing Jewish faithful for 1,260 days (Rev 12:6), making up the 2 halves of Daniel's 70th week.

Chapters 8 and 9 are about God's wrath against the World and not part of the 7-year period.

In Daniel 12:11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. ;Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

Note: 1,290 days is 43 months (30 days longer than the 42 months). I suspect there is a 30-day overlap of the 2nd half with the first half, with the temple fully operational for the first 41 months, then sacrifices are stopped by the antichrist, followed by the last 30 days of 2 witnesses preaching. The witnesses are killed at the end of the 42nd month. This puts the abomination at the end of 84 months (7 years), but then we have the blessed are those who wait and come to 1,335 days. The 'who wait and come' is an extension of the 2nd half (42 months or 1,260 days of the 70th week). This extension of 75 days is beyond (outside) the 7-years of the 70th week. We should align this blessing reference to;

Rev 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

These 75 days after' the 7-Years are when the sickle harvest occurs, followed by the final aspects of God's wrath. Jesus has arrived on Earth as Chapter 14 begins with Jesus standing on Mount Zion with the 144,000 Jewish witnesses from Chapter 7. Before Post Tribbers get too excited, the 2nd half of chapter 7 is the Raptured church, 'saved by Grace', without question. It is so self-evident that I'm not going to waste time defending it. But I will point out why the sickle harvest is not the gathering of the Bride. Notice in red above the blessing is for those saved by their works, as opposed to Christ's Bride is saved by Grace.

I noticed some comments on who populates the world for the millennial kingdom. We needn't look further than the first harvest, which is of an unknown crop. Notice there is no reference to them going to Heaven. It finishes with. I suspect they are mostly Jewish, as Judaism is based predominantly on works (law keeping).
Rev 14:16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
The second harvest is a known crop of grapes, cast into the wine press of wrath. The church is symbolized as the 'covenant of new wine.' Grapes, wine, winepress of wrath, don't add up to the Bride of Christ very well. But these sickle harvests do fit well with Jesus's parable of Wheat and Tares, Matthew 13:24-30, spoken to the Jewish people.
In chapters 15 and 16, we find the bowls' judgments of wrath, which appear to occur during the 75 days. This is why I presently suspect the 70th week ends sometime after the Jewish sickle harvests, and the bowl judgments deal with those outside of Israel with the Mark of the Beast

I think the major key to understanding Revelation is accepting what is stated (without dismissal) in Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks are determined, For your people and for your holy city, ......................

Interested to know what you think

 

[tttallison]

This thread is named Revelation 19, A major key to understanding Revelation, but I'm not really seeing any major key revealed here. What am I missing?

I will provide a significant key to understanding Revelation, found in Daniel. We all refer to the 7-year period as 'The 7-year Tribulation', when actually the 7 years we are really referring to is 'Daniel's 70th week', and this is what scripture says about Daniel's 70 weeks.

Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks are determined, For your people and for your holy city, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity,........................................
Who and What are the seventy week periods determined for - The Jewish People and Jerusalem. This is a statement that excludes the world outside of Israel during the fulfilment of Daniel's 70th week. We may try to dismiss this as not really meaning what it says, but the truth is it would read just fine without the exclusive determination (“Seventy weeks are determined, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity,........). It is there for a specific reason, not to be dismissed or ignored.

Only Revelation chapters 11-14 are exclusively about Israel. These chapters alone are the 7 years of Daniel's 70th week, and they even define so via the 2 time durations given, 42 months of 2 Jewish witnesses (Rev 11:2,3) and Antichrist chasing Jewish faithful for 1,260 days (Rev 12:6), making up the 2 halves of Daniel's 70th week.

Chapters 8 and 9 are about God's wrath against the World and not part of the 7-year period.

In Daniel 12:11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. ;Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

Note: 1,290 days is 43 months (30 days longer than the 42 months). I suspect there is a 30-day overlap of the 2nd half with the first half, with the temple fully operational for the first 41 months, then sacrifices are stopped by the antichrist, followed by the last 30 days of 2 witnesses preaching. The witnesses are killed at the end of the 42nd month. This puts the abomination at the end of 84 months (7 years), but then we have the blessed are those who wait and come to 1,335 days. The 'who wait and come' is an extension of the 2nd half (42 months or 1,260 days of the 70th week). This extension of 75 days is beyond (outside) the 7-years of the 70th week. We should align this blessing reference to;

Rev 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

These 75 days after' the 7-Years are when the sickle harvest occurs, followed by the final aspects of God's wrath. Jesus has arrived on Earth as Chapter 14 begins with Jesus standing on Mount Zion with the 144,000 Jewish witnesses from Chapter 7. Before Post Tribbers get too excited, the 2nd half of chapter 7 is the Raptured church, 'saved by Grace', without question. It is so self-evident that I'm not going to waste time defending it. But I will point out why the sickle harvest is not the gathering of the Bride. Notice in red above the blessing is for those saved by their works, as opposed to Christ's Bride is saved by Grace.

I noticed some comments on who populates the world for the millennial kingdom. We needn't look further than the first harvest, which is of an unknown crop. Notice there is no reference to them going to Heaven. It finishes with. I suspect they are mostly Jewish, as Judaism is based predominantly on works (law keeping).
Rev 14:16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
The second harvest is a known crop of grapes, cast into the wine press of wrath. The church is symbolized as the 'covenant of new wine.' Grapes, wine, winepress of wrath, don't add up to the Bride of Christ very well. But these sickle harvests do fit well with Jesus's parable of Wheat and Tares, Matthew 13:24-30, spoken to the Jewish people.
In chapters 15 and 16, we find the bowls' judgments of wrath, which appear to occur during the 75 days. This is why I presently suspect the 70th week ends sometime after the Jewish sickle harvests, and the bowl judgments deal with those outside of Israel with the Mark of the Beast

I think the major key to understanding Revelation is accepting what is stated (without dismissal) in Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks are determined, For your people and for your holy city, ......................

Interested to know what you think

You have given me a lot to study, and I like that. The reason I listed Revelation 19 as a key is based on the fact that it gave me something to try and determine the location of all the chapters of Revelation, as to whether they are pre-millennium, or post-millennium.

I have some questions for you and would like to post them after having some time to get my thoughts together, in a day or so.

Thank you for your post.

 

[BereanBride]

You have given me a lot to study, and I like that. The reason I listed Revelation 19 as a key is based on the fact that it gave me something to try and determine the location of all the chapters of Revelation, as to whether they are pre-millennium, or post-millennium.

I have some questions for you and would like to post them after having some time to get my thoughts together, in a day or so.

Thank you for your post.

Thank you for having an open mind and giving it some thought. I suspect my premise is not perfect, and welcome your thoughts and questions. Together (all who read this), we can find the truth. Please help encourage others to join in with their thoughts and opinions. I look forward to hearing from you after you have had some time to digest this. You might want to try to sort through the given days of 1,260 versus 1,290 and 1,335. It is a bit of a puzzle, and not sure if I presented well. It is not clear to me if the sickle harvest happens just before the extra 75 days begin, or is at the beginning of the 75 days. Remember, the original text did not have today's chapters and verse designations, which are convenient but also can be misleading. We should always keep this in mind.
Blessings,

 

[tttallison]

This thread is named Revelation 19, A major key to understanding Revelation, but I'm not really seeing any major key revealed here. What am I missing?

I will provide a significant key to understanding Revelation, found in Daniel. We all refer to the 7-year period as 'The 7-year Tribulation', when actually the 7 years we are really referring to is 'Daniel's 70th week', and this is what scripture says about Daniel's 70 weeks.

Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks are determined, For your people and for your holy city, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity,........................................
Who and What are the seventy week periods determined for - The Jewish People and Jerusalem. This is a statement that excludes the world outside of Israel during the fulfilment of Daniel's 70th week. We may try to dismiss this as not really meaning what it says, but the truth is it would read just fine without the exclusive determination (“Seventy weeks are determined, to make an end of sins, to make reconciliation for iniquity,........). It is there for a specific reason, not to be dismissed or ignored.

Only Revelation chapters 11-14 are exclusively about Israel. These chapters alone are the 7 years of Daniel's 70th week, and they even define so via the 2 time durations given, 42 months of 2 Jewish witnesses (Rev 11:2,3) and Antichrist chasing Jewish faithful for 1,260 days (Rev 12:6), making up the 2 halves of Daniel's 70th week.

Chapters 8 and 9 are about God's wrath against the World and not part of the 7-year period.

In Daniel 12:11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days. ;Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

Note: 1,290 days is 43 months (30 days longer than the 42 months). I suspect there is a 30-day overlap of the 2nd half with the first half, with the temple fully operational for the first 41 months, then sacrifices are stopped by the antichrist, followed by the last 30 days of 2 witnesses preaching. The witnesses are killed at the end of the 42nd month. This puts the abomination at the end of 84 months (7 years), but then we have the blessed are those who wait and come to 1,335 days. The 'who wait and come' is an extension of the 2nd half (42 months or 1,260 days of the 70th week). This extension of 75 days is beyond (outside) the 7-years of the 70th week. We should align this blessing reference to;

Rev 14:13 Then I heard a voice from heaven saying, “Write: ‘Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on." “Yes,” says the Spirit, “that they may rest from their labors, and their works follow them.”

These 75 days after' the 7-Years are when the sickle harvest occurs, followed by the final aspects of God's wrath. Jesus has arrived on Earth as Chapter 14 begins with Jesus standing on Mount Zion with the 144,000 Jewish witnesses from Chapter 7. Before Post Tribbers get too excited, the 2nd half of chapter 7 is the Raptured church, 'saved by Grace', without question. It is so self-evident that I'm not going to waste time defending it. But I will point out why the sickle harvest is not the gathering of the Bride. Notice in red above the blessing is for those saved by their works, as opposed to Christ's Bride is saved by Grace.

I noticed some comments on who populates the world for the millennial kingdom. We needn't look further than the first harvest, which is of an unknown crop. Notice there is no reference to them going to Heaven. It finishes with. I suspect they are mostly Jewish, as Judaism is based predominantly on works (law keeping).
Rev 14:16 So He who sat on the cloud thrust in His sickle on the earth, and the earth was reaped.
The second harvest is a known crop of grapes, cast into the wine press of wrath. The church is symbolized as the 'covenant of new wine.' Grapes, wine, winepress of wrath, don't add up to the Bride of Christ very well. But these sickle harvests do fit well with Jesus's parable of Wheat and Tares, Matthew 13:24-30, spoken to the Jewish people.
In chapters 15 and 16, we find the bowls' judgments of wrath, which appear to occur during the 75 days. This is why I presently suspect the 70th week ends sometime after the Jewish sickle harvests, and the bowl judgments deal with those outside of Israel with the Mark of the Beast

I think the major key to understanding Revelation is accepting what is stated (without dismissal) in Daniel 9:24 “Seventy weeks are determined, For your people and for your holy city, ......................

Interested to know what you think

We are so far apart on this that almost anything I say may be offensive, and I would rather not.

One question though. Have you considered that the 42 months of Revelation 11:2 might be the same time as the 42 months of Revelation 12:6?

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I think we are going in circles I already addressed this so I will agree to disagree.

God bless!

Sounds good and may the Lord bless you as well !