The book of Job

[reneweddaybyday]

Is truth an important factor in our studies, or is winning the discussion the most important factor?

You and I are discussing Scripture and we are both in the process of coming to an accurate understanding of God's Word. "winning the discussion" never entered my mind ... don't know why you'd bring that up?

I love the book of Job, and it reinforces my respect for the bible and it's trustworthiness.

as do I.

Take another look at the comparisons of what Adam is told, and what Noah is told.

Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion H7287 over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Gen 9:1 And God blessed Noah and his sons, and said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth. And the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all that moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered.

Adam is told to subdue the earth.

and Noah was told that "the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all the moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered"

Prior to the flood, Noah herded the animals into the ark and the animals lived with Noah and his family. The animals had no fear or dread of Noah or his family while in the ark.


Another difference between pre-flood and post-flood was dietary.

In Genesis 1, God said:

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

In Genesis 9, God said:

Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.

The KJV translates Strong's H3533 in the following manner: subdue (8x), bring into subjection (3x), bring into bondage (2x), keep under (1x), force (1x).
Outline of Biblical Usage [?]

1. to subject, subdue, force, keep under, bring into bondage
   1. (Qal)
      1. to bring into bondage, make subservient
      2. to subdue, force, violate
      3. to subdue, dominate, tread down

While dominion and subdue are not the same word they bring into view the same thought.

Here is what God told Noah:

Genesis 9:7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.

In regards to Satan, he does not have dominion over me. What would your answer be?

Here is how all descendants of Adam start out:

Ephesians 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Only those to come to God through faith find God's gracious provision for them. In our day and time, we are born again of Holy Spirit. Christ in you, the hope of glory (Col 1:27).

However, even born again believers in our day and time are affected by those who continue to walk "according to the prince of the power of the air " ... which is why we see bad things happen to good people.

The apostle Paul suffered at the hands of bad folks ...

2 Corinthians 11:24-25

24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep

On five separate occasions Paul was beaten with 39 stripes.

Three times Paul was beaten with rods.

One time he was stoned.

Did these things happen to Paul because of any sin on the part of Paul? No! ... people who walked "according to the prince of the power of the air " beat Paul ... not because of any sin on Paul's part, but because Paul preached the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ

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[tttallison]

You and I are discussing Scripture and we are both in the process of coming to an accurate understanding of God's Word. "winning the discussion" never entered my mind ... don't know why you'd bring that up?





as do I.





and Noah was told that "the fear of you and the dread of you shall be upon every beast of the earth, and upon every fowl of the air, upon all the moveth upon the earth, and upon all the fishes of the sea; into your hand are they delivered"

Prior to the flood, Noah herded the animals into the ark and the animals lived with Noah and his family. The animals had no fear or dread of Noah or his family while in the ark.


Another difference between pre-flood and post-flood was dietary.

In Genesis 1, God said:

Genesis 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

In Genesis 9, God said:

Genesis 9:3 Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things.





Here is what God told Noah:

Genesis 9:7 And you, be ye fruitful, and multiply; bring forth abundantly in the earth, and multiply therein.





Here is how all descendants of Adam start out:

Ephesians 2:2-3

2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

Only those to come to God through faith find God's gracious provision for them. In our day and time, we are born again of Holy Spirit. Christ in you, the hope of glory (Col 1:27).

However, even born again believers in our day and time are affected by those who continue to walk "according to the prince of the power of the air " ... which is why we see bad things happen to good people.

The apostle Paul suffered at the hands of bad folks ...

2 Corinthians 11:24-25

24 Of the Jews five times received I forty stripes save one.

25 Thrice was I beaten with rods, once was I stoned, thrice I suffered shipwreck, a night and a day I have been in the deep

On five separate occasions Paul was beaten with 39 stripes.

Three times Paul was beaten with rods.

One time he was stoned.

Did these things happen to Paul because of any sin on the part of Paul? No! ... people who walked "according to the prince of the power of the air " beat Paul ... not because of any sin on Paul's part, but because Paul preached the gospel of the Lord Jesus Christ

.

Are you saying there was no fear or dread in animals prior to the flood? I would debate that synopsis. The shedding of blood started with the first sin, when God shed the blood of animals for clothing. That first sin was more than a thousand years before the flood.

Then you have Able's offering. Someone had to kill the offering. If I was a lamb, at that time, I would have had dread and fear when I saw Able coming.

The animals coming two by two was a super natural event orchestrated by God.

Achan was another man who sinned and lost everything. He lost his children, all his possessions, and his life also. God was more lenient to Job, because Job was without knowledge, whereas Achan could not claim ignorance.

There is very little difference between the Old and New Testament. Salvation was always by putting on God's righteousness, through faith, believing God. The basic difference is looking forward, versus looking backwards, with Christ in the Center.

One error many make is believing that we are told everything that there is to be told. Silence is not considered evidence.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Remember God put a hedge of protection around Job so it was the Lord's will that Job be protected

It was Job that caused the hedge to come down, not the Lord.

what we see in the record of Job is the utter and complete hatred satan holds toward God and toward mankind ... especially those who love God.



reneweddaybyday said: who in this thread has claimed that "God is evil and is involved in doing evil to people" ???

All those claiming God "allowed" satan to attack Job as they blame God

do you have a post number which indicates I "blame God"? I have specifically stated satan was to blame.

Those not accepting the whole counsel of God won't be able to correctly understand what happened to Job which is of course why false religious teachers claim it was God's will for Job to be attacked by the devil just like they claim it was God's will for Paul to be attacked by the devil

Blaming God for mankind's errors is slow and is what people that are being deceived by the devil do.

I do not blame God ... nor do I blame Job ... I place the blame squarely at the feet of satan where it belongs.



reneweddaybyday said: Where is your proof that Job offered "the same sacrifice for his kids over and over because he was in fear and not in faith"?

Already answered
Job says he was afraid and in fear. Did you not see that?

Job 3:25
For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

Job 3:25 takes place after satan smote job with boils.

you have no Scripture which indicates Job offered "the same sacrifice for his kids over and over because he was in fear and not in faith" ... yet you continuously claim that was what Job did.



reneweddaybyday said: what you say I believe does not equal what I believe.

I have continuously stated in the page of this thread that satan caused the suffering Job endured.

Yes he did and it was Job that opened himself up to being attacked.

using your logic, Eve "opened [her]self to being attacked" ... what sin had Eve committed prior to satan deceiving her?



reneweddaybyday said: In our day and time, we pray for our children. I pray for my children all the time ... not because I am in fear but because I love God and I love my children. I also pray for my friends and neighbors.

Well if you get over in to fear rather than faith then your prayers would not be heard.

One must pray in faith for the Lord to hear their prayers.

I believe fear is a natural response if we feel we're in danger. if we allow fear to fester to the point where we are consumed by it and it leads us away from our safe haven in the Lord Jesus Christ, that is a problem. But I do believe God will hear us when we call out to Him in our depths of despair.

God knows our frame, He remembers we are but dust (Psalm 103:14).



reneweddaybyday said: In Job's day and time, sacrifice and offering was practiced by the patriarch of the family. Job lived in a time prior to the establishment of the priesthood in the OC.

Yes and when he was walking in faith the devil couldn't touch him

But, Job's status changed when he stopped walking in faith and start walking in fear and that's when the hedge of protection went down and satan had access to Job to be able to attack him.

You'll get it one of these days

you have yet to provide chapter and verse wherein Scripture tells us Job "stopped walking in faith and started walking in fear" prior to satan having smote Job with boils from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head.



reneweddaybyday said: nope ... Job was a man who reverenced God and loved his family. If he did not love God or his family he would not have cared nor would he have made sacrifice/offering.

And so you think God out of the blue for no reason whatsoever just up and decided to remove the hedge of protection He had placed around Job?

read the book ... God tells us exactly what happened.

Job says he was afraid and in fear. Did you not see that?

Job 3:25
For the thing which I greatly feared is come upon me, and that which I was afraid of is come unto me.

yes ... again, Job made this statement after he was afflicted with boils from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head. Job thought he was dying and if Job died, he would be released from the pain and agony inflicted upon him by satan:

Job 3:21-22 Which long for death, but it cometh not; and dig for it more than for hid treasures; Which rejoice exceedingly, and are glad, when they can find the grave?

Job also knew that one day he would see his Redeemer:

Job 19:25-27 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth: And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Job was still in agony when he made this statement. Job's faith in God was evident even in his horrible ordeal.



JayWalker said: Yeah so we'll put you down as one of those religious people who believe it was God's will for satan to attack Job and it was God that called up satan on the Bat Phone and told him to go over and attack satan but just don't kill him.

In other words you believe God caused all this God is the One that cause testings, temptations, and trials to come upon people for not reason whatsoever making what God says in John 10:10 and James 1:13 to be lies.

reneweddaybyday said: repeating this lie does not turn your lie to truth.

And yet your misunderstanding on why Job was attacked is ongoing. Weird.

What's "weird" is your continuous lies concerning what others clearly tell you is their understanding of Scripture ... which you then re-interpret, and then shift to making fallacious claims about them.



reneweddaybyday said: you indicated that Jesus had no choice but to tell Peter to come when Peter called to Him

Yes and since Jesus said come He apparently wanted Peter to come out and walk on the water with Him.

Peter said "if that be you, bid me to come"

Jesus cannot lie and say "No Peter, it's not me" so the result was Jesus saying "come on out here boy and walk on the water with me!" (that part of course is a paraphrase but true none the less)

The Lord Jesus Christ still had a choice prior to telling Peter to come. It was His choice, notwithstanding Peter having said "if it be You, bid me to come".

If He did not want Peter to walk on the water, He would have told Peter "it is Me but do not come to Me" ... or "it is Me but stay in the ship and I will come to you".



reneweddaybyday said: My Bible says God responded to the request of satan ... not Job.

And your Bible does not say it was God's will for satan to be able to attack Job.

correct ... satan's desire was to attack Job.

If it was God's will, then He never would have put up the hedge of protection around Job in the first place.

Think man, think!

By the time the devil was asking God about this Job had already started living in fear and already in satan's hand and the devil was so slow he didn't even know it. All God did was set a limitation to not allow the devil to kill Job, that's it.

you "Think man, think!"

you have provided no Scripture which indicates Job "had already started living in fear".



reneweddaybyday said: I believe God when he says So went satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown (Job 2:7).

But what you do not understand is WHY due to not accepting the whole counsel of God and your readiness to believe it's God's will for evil to happen to His people which is the lie the devil is telling everyone so they'll lay down and let the devil walk all over them as they think that's what God wants.

You cannot find one single post wherein I stated what you claim.

Quit lying about what I or others claim.

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[reneweddaybyday]

Are you saying there was no fear or dread in animals prior to the flood? I would debate that synopsis.

I do not believe that "the fear of you and the dread of you" is the same as "have dominion" ... possibly a distinction without a difference ... I'd have to study some more before I could definitively state there is no difference.

The shedding of blood started with the first sin, when God shed the blood of animals for clothing. That first sin was more than a thousand years before the flood.

Then you have Able's offering. Someone had to kill the offering. If I was a lamb, at that time, I would have had dread and fear when I saw Able coming.

I do not know whether the animals dreaded and/or feared when they saw Abel coming.

The animals coming two by two was a super natural event orchestrated by God.

Yes, I realize God's Hand was involved in getting the animals onto the ark ... what about during the time they were all in the ark? The flood started when Noah was in his 600th year, 2nd month, 17th day (Gen 7:11). When they exited the ark, Noah was in his 601st year, 2nd month, 27th day (Gen 8:13).

That means Noah and his family plus all the animals were in the ark together for at least 1 whole year. Animals usually attack when they are in fear. There is no record that animals attacked Noah or his family during that time.

Achan was another man who sinned and lost everything. He lost his children, all his possessions, and his life also. God was more lenient to Job, because Job was without knowledge, whereas Achan could not claim ignorance.

Job was "without knowledge" of what?

There is very little difference between the Old and New Testament. Salvation was always by putting on God's righteousness, through faith, believing God. The basic difference is looking forward, versus looking backwards, with Christ in the Center.

agree that salvation has always been by grace through faith.

One error many make is believing that we are told everything that there is to be told. Silence is not considered evidence.

please expand on this thought ... not sure I understand what is your point.

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[tttallison]

Yes, I realize God's Hand was involved in getting the animals onto the ark ... what about during the time they were all in the ark? The flood started when Noah was in his 600th year, 2nd month, 17th day (Gen 7:11). When they exited the ark, Noah was in his 601st year, 2nd month, 27th day (Gen 8:13).

That means Noah and his family plus all the animals were in the ark together for at least 1 whole year. Animals usually attack when they are in fear. There is no record that animals attacked Noah or his family during that time.

.

Why didn't the animals attack Noah? Let's think about that. What is the ark symbolic of? Is it not Christ? God shut the door. Who is the door? Is it not Christ? Jesus is the door to salvation, therefore when the father shut the door there was no salvation left for those on the outside, thus they all died.

What was the outside of the ark covered in? Was it not pitch? What is pitch?

Gen 6:14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

Some translations say "cover it" in leu of "pitch it". There is two different Hebrew words in Gen 6:14 that are translated pitch in the KJB, and the one is----

Strong's H3722 - kāp̄ar meaning atonement​

and the other is---

Strong's H3724 - kōp̄er meaning ransom​

We find this same word in Job 33:24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.

I found it interesting that Noah said he removed the covering from the ark. It left a question as to what was the covering, but upon investigation, it was found to be atonement. It was a new day, and when they left the ark their sins would no longer be covered.

Did Noah have to worry about the animals, while in Christ? The Lion and the Lamb shall lay down together.

 

[tttallison]

Job was "without knowledge" of what?

.

Of God's righteousness.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

What is the ark symbolic of? Is it not Christ? God shut the door. Who is the door? Is it not Christ? Jesus is the door to salvation, therefore when the father shut the door there was no salvation left for those on the outside, thus they all died.

yes, the ark is symbolic of God's safe haven ... the ark is a foreshadowing of the Lord Jesus Christ. Those who are not in Christ shall face God's judgment.

Noah was a preacher of righteousness (2 Peter 2:5) and was an heir of righteousness through faith (Heb 11:7). We shall see Noah in the future.

What was the outside of the ark covered in? Was it not pitch? What is pitch?

Gen 6:14 Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch.

Some translations say "cover it" in leu of "pitch it". There is two different Hebrew words in Gen 6:14 that are translated pitch in the KJB, and the one is----

Strong's H3722 - kāp̄ar meaning atonement

and the other is---

Strong's H3724 - kōp̄er meaning ransom

yes, the ark was covered within ... saving those within the ark from judgment ... and covered without ... sealing the ark from judgment.

the Hebrew word kāp̄ar is a verb ... the action of covering over.

the Hebrew word kōp̄er is a noun ... the material to cover over.

We find this same word in Job 33:24 Then he is gracious unto him, and saith, Deliver him from going down to the pit: I have found a ransom.

yes, and I know we shall see Job in the future. Job spoke of his Redeemer (Job 19:25-27).

I found it interesting that Noah said he removed the covering from the ark. It left a question as to what was the covering, but upon investigation, it was found to be atonement. It was a new day, and when they left the ark their sins would no longer be covered.

God told Noah to come out of the ark with his family (Gen 8:16) and bring with him all the animals (Gen 8:17) ... and the next thing Noah did was make free will offering to God:

Genesis 8:20 And Noah builded an altar unto the LORD; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

Noah had just gone through something that had never happened on the earth ... rain. How amazing was that???

Did Noah have to worry about the animals, while in Christ? The Lion and the Lamb shall lay down together.

prior to the flood, mankind and all animals were herbivores ... after the flood, God gave instruction and added meat to the diet. At the outset, this was probably due to lack of vegetation once the waters receded. I also believe there was change to the earth at the time of the flood that resulted in plant life no longer being sufficient to meet the dietary needs of mankind/animals.

Have you read Isaiah 11:1-10 ... and 65:17-25?

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[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday said:
Job was "without knowledge" of what?

Of God's righteousness.

what God says of Job:

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that [there is] none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?


what Job says of himself:

Job 9:20 If I justify myself, mine own mouth shall condemn me: if I say, I am perfect, it shall also prove me perverse.


at the end of the day, Job had grown in his relationship with God ... not only hearing by the hearing of the ear, but seeing God. Job's relationship with God deepened and was more vibrant after his trial than before.

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[tttallison]

tttallison said:
"One error many make is believing that we are told everything that there is to be told. Silence is not considered evidence."

remeweddaybyday said------please expand on this thought ... not sure I understand what is your point.
.

One example is the belief that "no one was eating meat before the flood." God had not stated that anyone was eating meat before flood, therefore, because of God's silence on this issue, many believe that no one ate meat before the flood, but how do we know this to be true?

Have you asked yourself how Noah would ascertain the difference between clean and unclean animals?

A second example might be the following verse. Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.
You might say, look at poor Job, all those boils, and all he has to scrape himself with is a broken piece of pottery. But what if God had a completely different picture he wants to present to you, other than what you are assuming. God is silent on why Job is using a piece of pottery to scrape himself with, and therefore we are left with our own assumptions. God said search the scriptures for in them you believe you have eternal life. We are also told to compare scripture with scripture.

The picture you are left with will not be my picture. Your picture is poor Job, but I believe there is another picture that God would have us see. Comparing scripture with scripture.-----------

Jer 18:2-4 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Notice the first part of Isa 45:9 'Woe to him that strives with his maker". This was God's charge against Job in Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. Strive and contend are both derived from the same Hebrew word.

Notice the second part of Isa 45:9 "Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth". Job was a potsherd striving with three other potsherds.

Notice the third part of Isa 45:9 "Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Wasn't this Job's complaint when he said, Job 3:11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

And then there is this verse--Isa 44:20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand? This verse says he can't deliver his soul, and God said to Job, Job 40:14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

Then also we have the law that says, when a vessel of clay has contained sin it must be broken, and thus becomes a potsherd. Job was a vessel of clay that had to be broken, because he elevated himself above God.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

God had not stated that anyone was eating meat before flood, therefore, because of God's silence on this issue, many believe that no one ate meat before the flood, but how do we know this to be true?

Genesis 1:29-30

29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed, which is upon the face of all the earth, and every tree, in the which is the fruit of a tree yielding seed; to you it shall be for meat.

30 And to every beast of the earth, and to every fowl of the air, and to every thing that creepeth upon the earth, wherein there is life, I have given every green herb for meat: and it was so.

Have you asked yourself how Noah would ascertain the difference between clean and unclean animals?

We are not told how Noah knew the difference between clean and unclean. However, we can presume that Noah knew prior or God told Noah at the time. I believe Noah knew because sacrifices were made to God all the way back to Gen 4. Noah was the 10th generation from Adam and my belief is that God revealed to the patriarchs who then passed down to their children what God revealed to them.

A second example might be the following verse. Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.
You might say, look at poor Job, all those boils, and all he has to scrape himself with is a broken piece of pottery. But what if God had a completely different picture he wants to present to you, other than what you are assuming. God is silent on why Job is using a piece of pottery to scrape himself with, and therefore we are left with our own assumptions.

I have never had a boil ... much less boils (plural). My understanding is that they are very painful ... they are filled with pus and need to drained.

Perhaps scraping with a potsherd was the preferred method for treatment back in Job's day. In our day, if a boil needs to be treated by a doctor, the doctor will lance the boil.

God said search the scriptures for in them you believe you have eternal life.

... and they are they which testify of Me.

The Lord Jesus Christ is the Subject of Scripture from Genesis to Revelation. The Lord Jesus Christ can be found in every book in the Bible.

We are also told to compare scripture with scripture.

The picture you are left with will not be my picture. Your picture is poor Job,

I think "poor [whoever is suffering]" ... if I see an accident when I am driving, I think "poor [whoever was in the accident]" and I pray for God to reach down and watch over them. If I see or hear of someone who has fallen on hard times, I feel for them ... pray for them ... provide assistance if I can or if they allow.

but I believe there is another picture that God would have us see. Comparing scripture with scripture.-----------

Jer 18:2-4 Arise, and go down to the potter's house, and there I will cause thee to hear my words. Then I went down to the potter's house, and, behold, he wrought a work on the wheels. And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

Jer 18:6 O house of Israel, cannot I do with you as this potter? saith the LORD. Behold, as the clay is in the potter's hand, so are ye in mine hand, O house of Israel.

is it your understanding that God was behind the suffering of Job?

my understanding is that satan was the one who afflicted Job ... not God.

Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands?

Notice the first part of Isa 45:9 'Woe to him that strives with his maker". This was God's charge against Job in Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. Strive and contend are both derived from the same Hebrew word.

Job and his friends ... all of them ... Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu ... spoke words of truth and words that were not true.

Job was in a dire situation and he kept asking God to show him what he had done that was so deserving of his suffering ... and to show him if/when he had sinned so he could repent.

Sometimes we go through trying times through no fault of our own but because we have an adversary (the same adversary as Job) who walks about seeking to devour (1 Peter 5:8).

God answers in His own time ... and He has His own reasons for doing as He does, even though we may not like what we are going through.

And God not answering ... remaining silent ... is an answer as well.

Job's response to Job 40:2:

Job 40:3-4 Then Job answered the LORD, and said, Behold, I am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.

Notice the second part of Isa 45:9 "Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth". Job was a potsherd striving with three other potsherds.

yup ... although I would say four other potsherds.

At the end of the day, God said that Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar had not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

While God did not mention Elihu, I believe Elihu held to the same argument the other three had ... that there was some sin committed by Job for which he needed to repent.

Notice the third part of Isa 45:9 "Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Wasn't this Job's complaint when he said, Job 3:11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly?

yes, Job wanted to die and thought that was what was happening to him ... a slow tortuous death.

Job 3:13 For now should I have lain still and been quiet, I should have slept: then had I been at rest

Job knew that if he died, he would no longer be in pain ... all would be still and quiet ... he would sleep and be at rest.

.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

And then there is this verse--Isa 44:20 He feedeth on ashes: a deceived heart hath turned him aside, that he cannot deliver his soul, nor say, Is there not a lie in my right hand? This verse says he can't deliver his soul, and God said to Job, Job 40:14Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

please read vs 14 within the context God has placed it:

Job 40:8-14

8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

9 Hast thou an arm like God? or canst thou thunder with a voice like him?

10 Deck thyself now with majesty and excellency; and array thyself with glory and beauty.

11 Cast abroad the rage of thy wrath: and behold every one that is proud, and abase him.

12 Look on every one that is proud, and bring him low; and tread down the wicked in their place.

13 Hide them in the dust together; and bind their faces in secret.

14 Then will I also confess unto thee that thine own right hand can save thee.

The point behind these verses is -

vs 8 – if Job could disannul the judgment of God ... or condemn God ...

vs 9 – if Job had an arm like God ... or if Job could thunder with a voice like God ...

vs 10 – if Job could deck himself with majesty and excellency and array himself with glory and beauty as God is in His majesty, excellence, glory and beauty ...

vs 11 – if Job could abase with a glance every one that is proud ...

vs 12 – if Job could bring low the proud and tread down the wicked ...

vs 13 – if Job could hide them in the dust never to arise ...

vs 14 – if Job could do the things described in the above verses, then God would confess that Job could save himself.

What God revealed to Job here (as well as what is stated from chapter 38 to 41) is that that God's ways are so far above man's ways, and it is God alone Who is the Creator of all, Who knows the ways of all creation, Who is more powerful than the most powerful creature.

Both God and Job knew Job could do none of those things. Both God and Job knew Job could not save himself. Job relied upon the same Redeemer you and I rely upon.

Then also we have the law that says, when a vessel of clay has contained sin it must be broken, and thus becomes a potsherd. Job was a vessel of clay that had to be broken, because he elevated himself above God.

my understanding is that satan is the one who tries to elevate himself above God.

and, yes, God uses various ways to bring about change in us to rid us of things that are not conducive to us ... and that task will never be completed in this lifetime.

Even in new heaven/new earth, I believe we will never come to the end of God and we will continue to learn more and more about God ... although not through suffering ... but through a deeper and more profound knowledge of Who God is. We will never reach the end of Who He is. Eternity is eternity and even then we will never know all of Who God is.

.

 

[tttallison]

is it your understanding that God was behind the suffering of Job?

my understanding is that satan was the one who afflicted Job ... not God.

Job and his friends ... all of them ... Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu ... spoke words of truth and words that were not true.

yup ... although I would say four other potsherds.

At the end of the day, God said that Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar had not spoken of me the thing that is right, as my servant Job hath.

While God did not mention Elihu, I believe Elihu held to the same argument the other three had ... that there was some sin committed by Job for which he needed to repent.

.

I apologize for shortening your post, but I like to ponder single thoughts. I will respond to any statement you prefer.

Harry S. Truman had a sign on his desk that said the buck stops here. The fellow at the top has to take responsibility.

You listed Elihu as one of Job's friends, but I believe the bible makes it clear that Elihu was the daysman that Job had requested from God. To support this idea I would like to present the scripture that supports this thought.

Job pleads for a man like Elihu, who would stand between him and God. Job has said, “God would laugh at the trial of the innocent”, Job wants an independent judge, a fair judge, a judge of clay, and one that would not make him afraid. (This is why Elihu is young.)

Job 10:2 I will say unto God, do not condemn me; shew me wherefore thou contendest with me. (Job is making a charge against God for contending with him, but compare this with what God says.) Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

Job 9:13-16 If God will not withdraw his anger, the proud helpers do stoop under him. How much less shall I answer him, and choose out my words to reason with him? Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, I would make supplication to my judge. If I had called, and he had answered me: yet would I not believe that he had hearkened unto my voice.------ Job 9:19 and if of judgement, who shall set me a time to plead? (Job requests a trial date.)

Job 9-32-35 For he is not a man, as I am, that I should answer him, and we should come together in judgment. Neither is there any daysman betwixt us, that might lay his hand upon us both.(The two conditions.) Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Then would I speak, and not fear him; but it is not so with me. (Job sets the conditions for his trial.)

(Job 13:18-20) Behold now I have ordered my cause; I know that I shall be justified. Who is he that will plead with me?(Elihu) For now, If I hold my tongue, I shall give up the ghost. Only do not two things unto me: then I will not hide myself from thee. Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid. Then call thou, and I will answer; or let me speak, and answer thou me. (Job again sets the conditions for his trial, and if they are met he will speak.)

Job 19:6 Behold, I cry out of wrong but I am not heard: I cry aloud but there is no judgment. Job 23:4I would order my cause before him, and fill my mouth with arguments.

Elihu says to Job, Job 33:5-7 “If thou canst answer me, set thy words in order before me, stand up.” “Behold, I am according to thy wish in God’s stead: I also am formed out of the clay. Behold, my terror shall not make thee afraid, neither shall my hand be heavy upon thee.” (The two conditions that Job set for speaking are met in the words in red above.)

Would you agree that Job had requested a mediator to stand between him and God, and would you agree that Elihu meets Job's standards that Job set for that mediator? If not, can you explain in detail?

 

[JayWalker]

Of God's righteousness.

That's no what the Lord said about Job.

Job was obviously seen by the Lord as someone who was heart right towards the Lord.

He made some errors but he was never malicious towards the Lord, so God called Him upright

 

[tttallison]

That's no what the Lord said about Job.

Job was obviously seen by the Lord as someone who was heart right towards the Lord.

He made some errors but he was never malicious towards the Lord, so God called Him upright

Compare what Paul said about Israel with what God said about Job.

Rom 10:1-3 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved. For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

No one should deny that Job had a zeal for God, nor should they deny that God said Job was without knowledge, and that leaves us with whether Job was trying to establish his own righteousness in leu of submitting himself to God's righteousness. God answers this very plainly. God said, Job 40:8 Will you also disannul my judgment? will you condemn me, that you may be righteous?

Elihu puts it this way, Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?

Blameless and upright only means that Job wasn't being held accountable for what he performed in ignorance, because he thought he was doing right, but that only lasted until the second test.

 

[JayWalker]

Blameless and upright only means that Job wasn't being held accountable for what he performed in ignorance, because he thought he was doing right, but that only lasted until the second test.

And since Job did have a zeal for the Lord and was heart right, if he had had the entire Word of God like we do today Job would never had gone through any of this stuff. He would have known from God's Word how to walk wisely in all the affairs of like.

Sadly today we see lots of Christians going through things they are only going through because they opened the door to the devil and they should know better but they don't because they are not students of God's Word as they should be.

Then if anyone points this out they get all offended and start manifesting infantile behavior.

 

[tttallison]

And since Job did have a zeal for the Lord and was heart right, if he had had the entire Word of God like we do today Job would never had gone through any of this stuff. He would have known from God's Word how to walk wisely in all the affairs of like.

Sadly today we see lots of Christians going through things they are only going through because they opened the door to the devil and they should know better but they don't because they are not students of God's Word as they should be.

Then if anyone points this out they get all offended and start manifesting infantile behavior.

What makes you think Job didn't have the word of God?

How could Job's heart be right if he was exalting his own righteousness above God's righteousness, and had the serpent for a servant?

 

[UnoiAmarah]

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1 John 3:7

Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. Ezek 14:13-14

The desire of the righteous is only good: but the expectation of the wicked is wrath. Prov 11:23

 

[tttallison]

Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous. 1 John 3:7

Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it: Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD. Ezek 14:13-14

The desire of the righteous is only good: but the expectation of the wicked is wrath. Prov 11:23

Isa 41:26 Who hath declared from the beginning, that we may know? and beforetime, that we may say, He is righteous? yea, there is none that sheweth, yea, there is none that declareth, yea, there is none that heareth your words.

Rom 3:10-12 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Isa 64:6 But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away.

Job 3:1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.

Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

 

[UnoiAmarah]

And when asked for the second time, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? The accuser who had Job's children, his servants, and his livestock killed; and destroyed all of Job's labor. And the accuser continued to reject the LORD's word and that Job had held fast his integrity.

The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness. Prov 11:5

Knowing beforehand, the LORD says to the accuser "although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause" as the accuser says "Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life." So the accuser went forth and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown. So who was the accuser that afflicted Job? For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled.

The righteousness of the upright shall deliver them: but transgressors shall be taken in their own malice. Prov 11:6

 

[tttallison]

And when asked for the second time, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? The accuser who had Job's children, his servants, and his livestock killed; and destroyed all of Job's labor. And the accuser continued to reject the LORD's word and that Job had held fast his integrity.

The righteousness of the perfect shall direct his way: but the wicked shall fall by his own wickedness. Prov 11:5

Knowing beforehand, the LORD says to the accuser "although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause" as the accuser says "Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life." So the accuser went forth and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown. So who was the accuser that afflicted Job? For there is no man that doeth any thing in secret, and he himself seeketh to be known openly. Then was kindled the wrath of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the kindred of Ram: against Job was his wrath kindled.

The righteousness of the upright shall deliver them: but transgressors shall be taken in their own malice. Prov 11:6

Let me ask you this; Can a person's own righteousness save him?