Emotion is not a bad thing.
You have a comprehension problem, which doesn't surprise me.
Is cessation an observation or theology?
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Emotion is not a bad thing.
You have a comprehension problem, which doesn't surprise me.
Well... 'has to do with being emotional' aligns with what you said.
Why would you go with the idea that their god is their emotions, as opposed to their god is carnal appetites? Isn't the latter more in line with Pauline theology given the passage in I Corinthians 6? There are lustful passions.
And how would you make the leap to the idea of Paul from what Paul said to accusing Christians for being emotional ___about the things of God___? That's the part that seems particularly bad about your stretchy interpretation.
It's especially concerning when you have to read a whole concept into one word 'stomach'-- which is used elsewhere in Paul's own writings about yielding to ungodly appetites-- to create an 'anti-emotional' doctrine. And in the very passage, Paul describes himself being expressive with his emotions on top of that.
Because it's not about time periods. You have "when" stuck in your head when the argument is how they cease, not when. It's the how they cease that points to the difference in timing. If Christ is the "perfect" that comes then the how they cease ought to be the same.
The point is, what knowledge about God and/or His workings can you be given that is not in scripture? Name me one thing.
The point of the Church being given gifts was to grow the Church in quality and quantity regarding the knowledge of who God is and what he has done and is doing. They are not for the benefit of individuals to get their lives in order or make them feel good about themselves.
The early Church was a child that did not have the benefit of the fullness of scriptures that were to come. The whole 1 Cor. 12 -14 message regarding gifts with the thirteenth chapter in the middle is to wake people up to grow up. One cannot remain a child relying on Daddy to cover the expenses while one refuses to do the work of study and meditation on the word so that one can be sustained through the agonies of their crosses. What do you think kept Jesus faithful while hanging on the Cross if not the word hidden and guarded in His heart. Ps.119:11
My exact point! We do not need prophets today because what God wants us to know is already written. Every Christian ought to be prophetic for the "testimony of Christ is the spirit of prophecy", Rev.19:10 but that does not make us all prophets.
How well you know the word in truth will determine how discerning you are and how well you can determine the "seasons" and where they are leading.
Yet the scripture is straight forward on the subject of the power of the Holy Spirit.
Paul spoke at length concerning the gifts and ministries of the Holy Spirit in a perfect letter to the
Corinthians.
1 Corinthians 14
If any one thinks that he is a prophet, or spiritual, he should acknowledge that what I am writing to you
is a command of the Lord.
The Corinthians were given a commandment of the Lord not some option regarding the power of the
Holy Spirit.
The onus is on you to decide whether you will obey the Lord's commandment or not.
This has nothing to do with Charismatics, Pentecostals. or any other church division.
I have heard many Christians say they would not believe in any divine miraculous intervention until they saw it first. This does not express neutrality but a primary assumption of naturalism. This presupposition is what defines Skepticism. I understand this attitude, I originally thought this way myself. In time I learned through experience that God can and will answer prayers even when it involves His being involved supernaturally. If your primary settled belief is that God is not at all involved in the Land of the Living then how could you approach Him in faith at all?
5 Now if any of you lacks wisdom, he should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to him. 6But he must ask in faith, without doubting, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7That man should not expect to receive anything from the Lord. 8 He is a double-minded man, unstable in all his ways.
(James 1:5)
I do not think wisdom and knowledge are the same thing. Knowledge can be acquired by processing data. Wisdom is the insight given by the Holy Spirit which tells us how we are to put God's truths into practice in a given situation or, how we are to understand what God wants us to do in regard to a particular person. If we can only follow our natural mind then we are not a Spiritual man, which is what we have the potential of being as the result of our having been born of the Spirit.
Hmmmmm.
Catholics, Reformers and Protestants executed heretics.
Is that loving your enemies?
The Catholic Church conducted Inquisitions in various countries also.
Is that the fruit of the Holy Spirit we can see?
The Catholics and the Protestants had a thirty year war in Europe.
1. The Thirty Years' War (1618–1648)
What it was: A massive, multi-national European conflict, primarily fought in the Holy Roman Empire (modern-day Germany).
Key Actors: Catholics vs. Protestants (initially), evolving into a political struggle involving France, Sweden, Spain, and Austria.
Reason: Sparked by religious tensions between Catholic rulers and Protestant subjects, later fueled by the political rivalry
between France and the Habsburg monarchy.
Result: It devastated Central Europe and was concluded by the Peace of Westphalia, which established the principle of state sovereignty. (Wikipedia)
A classic case of the pot calling the kettle black!
How dare you throw insults at other churches when your own churches functioned as military entities.
The evidence for the power of the Holy Spirit is from Genesis to Revelation.
We are a new creation in Jesus Christ and our lives are ruled by the Holy Spirit.
Will Draw the Unsaved Sinner to Jesus
Will Convict Both Unbelievers and Believers
Will Regenerate Our Human Spirits
Will Draw Us Closer to the Lord
Will Sanctify Us in the Lord
Will Help Us With Our Prayer Life
Will Guide Us Into All Truth
Will Teach Us All Things
Will Anoint Us With His Divine Power
Will Be Our Helper and Comforter in This Life
The 9 Gifts of the Holy Spirit
The 9 Fruits of the Holy Spirit (Bible-Knowledge.com)
It is not possible to accept one or two ministries of the Holy spirit above and deny the rest.
Yes, the Reformers may have started out with the desire to know the word and make it known, but, very quickly, they set out to establish themselves and their "brand" as the source of truth. As a result, Reformers like Luther Calvin and Zwingli - allied themselves with the Catholic Church and attempted to suppress smaller independent groups of Christians who wanted to worship their own way and ordain their own ministers. Luther himself led mobs who burned the Anabaptists alive. Zwingli donned armor and took up the sword and entered the frey himself. As one of their (Protestant) opponents (Sebastian Castellio) said: "If these be the works of God what is left for the Devil to do?"
How do you get any kind of argument out of the text for what you are saying here? An aorist form of the same word translated 'cease' shows up in one gospel account of the winds and waves ceasing, but in another gospel, it doesn't use the middle. You are trying to make doctrinal points out of grammatical features. Do you have any examples from Greek that indicate that the change in grammatical form, or lexical item backs up your doctrinal point?
And one is a word for cease, and the other is along the lines of 'come to naught' or something like that. You are also assuming that these gift ceases or comes to not, as opposed to individual expressions of the gift being in view.
Micaiah prophesied something about Ahab before the first and only utterances of Micaiah that we have in scripture. Samuel told Saul where his father's missing donkeys were. We don't know what Samuel said about missing horse, sheep, and donkeys. Apparently, it was a thing-- being able to go to a prophet to ask such things. Saul prophesied something when the Spirit of the Lord came upon him. We don't know what.
Judas and Silas were prophets. We don't know what they prophesied. Agabus was apparently a prophet before he went to Antioch and signified through the Spirit. We don't know what he'd prophesied before that. We don't know what the prophets in Corinth prophesied because they aren't quoted. We don't know what they said after Paul wrote I Corinthians if they prophesied like he instructed them.
We do know that the sort of thing that might happen if all prophesied was an unbeliever might come in and hear the secrets of his heart made manifest, but we don't see in scripture all the specific secrets of such individual's hearts.
Timothy had a gift in him through prophecy, with the laying on of hands of the elders. We don't know specifically what was prophesied, only that the prophecy was given. And if other ministers were prophesied about in similar situations, we don't have all those prophecies either.
Whatever the Spirit wanted to move these individuals to say to edify and comfort others, we don't have the exact words written in scripture.
Straw man. Who says prophecy is to 'make them feel good about themselves.' The KJV does say 'comforted', as one of the results of prophesying, so let us not speak ill of that teaching of scripture.
The early Church was a child that did not have the benefit of the fullness of scriptures that were to come. The whole 1 Cor. 12 -14 message regarding gifts with the thirteenth chapter in the middle is to wake people up to grow up. One cannot remain a child relying on Daddy to cover the expenses while one refuses to do the work of study and meditation on the word so that one can be sustained through the agonies of their crosses.
How much more mature do you feel you are than the apostle Paul was when he wrote I Corinthians? Doesn't your interpretation require you to see him as like a little child in speech, knowledge, and understanding in comparison to your adult speech, knowledge, and understanding? Explain the 'agonies' of your cross that you have experienced which is so much more intense than what Paul suffered.
I would hope you consider Christ on the cross to be more mature than you are, spiritually, even though you have a completed translation of the New Testament scriptures. Can you see the problem with your giving this as an example if you consider having only the Old Testament as scripture as making one like a little baby?
Saul went to a prophet to find a missing donkey. Please open your Bible and tell me where my missing athletic pants with the white stripe are... two pairs. I am also missing a sports coat. I suspect one of my kids used those sweat pants or whatever they are to play outside in the snow. i don't think I've seen them since. I'm also looking for my black tennis shoes. If the Bible completely replicates the function of Old Testament prophecy, please show me chapter and verse where my missing items are.
Also, please open the Bible and tell me the names of all the people who are supposed to evangelise and plant churches. The Spirit spoke about separating Barnabas and Saul to the work, and Timothy also had a gift in him through prophecy with the laying on of hands of the elders. So tell me all the names of everyone who has a spiritual gift of any kind throughout history and what gift they have based on scripture.
Please also tell me all upcoming famines based on scripture, and all the secret sins of all the unbelievers who might come to church. Please look those up in the Bible for me. I haven't found these things in my Bible.
You are just being dull.
Read again what you keep missing....
Philippians 3:17-19
Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you
have us for a pattern. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now
tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose
end is destruction, whose god is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame
—who set their mind on earthly things.
Note:
"Whose god is their belly?"
What does that mean?
That meant back then that their god of their lives was their emotions.
Try it this way, perhaps?
Brethren, join in following my example, and note those who so walk, as you
have us for a pattern. For many walk, of whom I have told you often, and now
tell you even weeping, that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ: whose
end is destruction, whose god is their EMOTIONS, and whose glory is in their shame
—who set their mind on earthly things.
Emotions are good when God's Word is God of your life!Not, your emotions are being your god!
Your emotions ruling you keep you from reading things correctly.
You have been suckered into a power sphere that you do not want to get out of.
That is why it says... that they are the enemies of the cross of Christ.
You keep refusing to deny self and to take up your cross... and will cling to what amounts to spiritual masturbation.
Love never faileth. But whether there be prophecies, they shall fail;
whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be (gift of) knowledge,
it shall vanish away.
You deny deny deny!
People pay for psychic readings.
They can tell you where you left your lost car keys.
They can tell you if your cousin is going to get married, etc.
The devil can make someone into a prophet in that sense.
So, if you see it working amongst apostate believers?
It does not validate that the gift of prophesy exists for today.
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you
a sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says,
“Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them." Deuteronomy 13:1-2
The other god in this case would be following false doctrine.
For Jesus is the Word of God! (John 1:1)
For Scripture teaches that the gift of prophesy has ended.
That is the Word of God!
That does not mean prophesy (as it always had been without God) will discontinue.
What do we end up with?
The Pentecostals are suckers for another god.
One who promotes false doctrines.
And, they in effect, worship another god.
If a prophet, or one who foretells by dreams, appears among you and announces to you
a sign or wonder, and if the sign or wonder spoken of takes place, and the prophet says,
“Let us follow other gods” (gods you have not known) “and let us worship them." Deuteronomy 13:1-2
Even then God needed to warn against what we still see amongst ourselves today.
.
I see some real nasty prejudiced drivel and twisting of scripture in your posts here. Being emotional and making one's belly one's god aren't the same thing. Emotions directed toward God in praise or prayer, etc. is not condemned in scripture. Paul is describing himself as expressive of emotion in this very passage-- telling them while weeping, about those whose God is their bellies.
There is this trend in some evangelical subcultures of accusing anyone and everyone of 'idolatry' for any sinful... or suboptimal... attitude, when scripture does not identify such things as idolatry.
The burden of proof is on you to show that those who are emotionally expressive (like Paul is in this verse) make their belly their God, or that those who are emotionally expressive in praising God in prayer are making their belly their god, or whatever aspect of emotion you are concerned with in your accusations.
There is wisdom in the multitude of counsel. Let's consider other commentators.
This is a quote from John Chrysostom, who was a native speaker of Koine Greek. Based on our conversation, I would venture to guess he knew the language better than you do (or myself.)
"Let us build houses: where? On earth. Let us procure fields: on earth again. Let us get power: on earth again. Let us get glory: on earth again. Let us be rich: always on earth. These are the ones “whose god is their belly. ."
Philippians 3 - Catena Bible & Commentaries
Philippians 3 Patristic Commentaries | Catena Bible & Commentaries
catenabible.com
From Benson's notes:
"Whose God is their belly - Who worship their own appetites; or who live not to adore and honor God, but for self-indulgence and sensual gratifications; see Romans 16:18."
This is from Matthew Poole's commentary
"Whose God is their belly; the great business of these is, their sensuality, their good eating and drinking; they mind the pleasing of their carnal appetite, as if it were their God, 2 Peter 2:13,18 3:3; instead of our Lord Jesus Christ, really they serve their own belly, Romans 16:18, love their pleasures indeed more than God, 2 Timothy 3:4."
Anyway, your method in this conversation has to plug some idea into a word in the verse in the Bible that leads to your conclusion, whether it is reasonable given the context and Paul's overall theology that runs throughout his letters or not.... and on top of that uses Greek to do it... obscuring whether it is true or not from the average listeners by claiming something special about the Greek.... as if you were speaking from some special expertise. You don't happen to have a D.Min. degree do you?
Don't do this,
"whose god is their EMOTIONS, "
And don't swap out your INTERPRETATION for translation, especially when your interpretation doesn't fit Paul's theology.
Here is a dynamic equivalence (generally a bit lose for my tastes.)
NLT
Philippians 3:19 They are headed for destruction. Their god is their appetite, they brag about shameful things, and they think only about this life here on earth.
Here is also an NIV translation, dynamic equivalence, for another verse regarding the belly:
I Corinthians 16
18 For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people.
And don't substitute the word of God with your confused lies. You wrote,
No, it says when that which is perfect is come, that which is in part SHALL be done away. In the book of Revelation, the two witnesses still prophesy.
You grasp at straws and interpret scripture strangely to condemn others.
In the Old Testament, people would inquire of the Lord through prophets. Saul was ashamed to go to Samuel without a gift. His servant had a coin.
God's people were allowed to go to a prophet of the LORD, but they were forbidden from going to soothsayers.
Strewth. You are not hearing what is being said. I am not arguing grammar or voice or tense or anything of that nature. I am arguing two different words with two different meanings. The manner in which tongues cease and the manner in which prophecy and knowledge cease are different. One stops abruptly the other two fade away. If the perfect that is to come is Christ then all three should end the same way.
I am assuming nothing. I am seeing two different means of ceasing and wonder how can that be if they are all suppose to end with the Second Coming? And why only these three are said to end?
As for the rest of your post .. prophets prophesying ... who woulda thunk it.
Once again you miss the point. You even said it yourself. If someone gives a prophesy today we weigh it against scripture. Why? Because we have all the information God needs and wants us to have in order to mature to the fullness of Christ in the written word.
As far as maturity, I was speaking about the Church as a whole, not individuals within it. It was in respect to the information they had. When Paul wrote to the Corinthians, John had not written Revelation.
How do you even take that away from what I said? I never said anything like that. What I said was that while Christ hung on the Cross forsaken by God the Father, it was the word he had hidden in His heart, that which He valued above all else, that kept Him faithful. The hope that was set before Him because it is written.
Then I suggest you look up all the passages on stewardship and learn how to be more responsible with the goods you have been given.
Really? A bit childish don't you think? Knowing when the next famine will occur is not going to make you a more mature Christian.
I can identify the evangelists in the Church I attend? Why do I need to know more?
Do you have any evidence that any of these verbs or their aspect or whatever grammatical category indicates they end 'abruptly'? You seem to be reaching here.
I also notice cessationists have inconsistent beliefs about Greek grammar amongs themselves.
Those are three issues Paul addresses in the epistle. He says knowledge puffs up. He dealt with 'knowledge of the idol' earlier in chapter 8. In chapter 14, he will address issues related to how prophesying, tongues, and interpretation should be allowed and and administrated in the assembly. Then chapter 15 deals with the resurrection and the state of those who do not sleep at the coming of Christ.
Again the scriptures don't teach that. We have the scriptures so that we might be fully equipped, but that doesn't mean the scriptures are all we need to be fully equipped. We need stuff scripture says we need, like grace, faith, love, etc. We need the working of the Spirit.
What individual Christians in the whole today would you say are more mature than apostles like Paul, Peter, or John in the first century?
Lending and not getting back may not be a sign of poor stewardship, considering the beatitudes. I'm not sure if that's what happened.
But my point stands. That is a function prophecy performed that scripture does not.
Why do you think Agabus shared this revelation with the saints in Antioch? Could their deciding to respond to the revelation and share aid with the poor saints in Jerusalem have helped them become more mature Christians? Do you think God might have cared about the welfare of the poor saints in Jerusalem?
Do they tell you they are evangelists, and so you know? Or do other people call them evangelists?
Whatever gift Paul referred to (and we do not know if this was a reference to his ministry of doing the work of an evangelist) Timothy received it through prophecy.
I beg to differ. I've had too many real experiences to doubt them. And yes, there are some abominable demonic counterfeits. Satan wants to rob the church of gifts that are of great value. And I can assure you that I am not overly emotional. I'm more inclined to be intellectual, which is equally a problem. Logic and reason are inadequate when it comes to the things of God. Just ask Nicodemus.
People claiming to believe someone they met has some esoteric knowledge or that they saw someone get healed does not make them a reliable witness. It just makes them a claimant.
Example:
I have mentioned before that you seem rather dull. This is my claim and I sincerely believe this to be accurate.
But does this claim prove you are dull? Of course not. It is but a claim.
How can you be so dull as not to understand this?
How can someone ever ague a point with you?
When your ears keep distorting what was said?
You can not handle the Truth.
Truth triggers you.