Is cessation an observation or theology?
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While that is true, one must consider the message and the fruit, rather than assuming the source.
There was fornication among those in the church in Corinth, mentioned in both epistles we have. Yet there were genuine spiritual gifts also, mentioned in I Corinthians.
You could find error in a Pentecostal denomination, but that does not mean that the Spirit does not do what the scriptures teach that the Spirit does.
You do not have to see airplanes fly for claims of flight to be true. If you want to find out, go research for yourself. If you are in a remote Area where airplanes do not fly you might want to believe 2 or 3 witnesses.
I would guess that actual miracles are more rare than seeing airplane fly overhead. You can discount and reject the claims of those who have experienced supernatural miracles and healing and things of that sort but that doesn't mean they don't exist.
Theologian and Bible commentator Craig keener wrote a book that started out as a footnote that turned into 1200 pages documenting miracles starting back in history through more recent times if you're interested in reading 'Miracles'.
His book attacks David humes approach to the topic of miracles which basically rejects miracles because it's supposedly is not part of the human experience which seems similar to what @Lamar is arguing. In Keener's book attacks the premise of that argument.
The fruit is not that good. Considering that in the days of mental institutions a very high percentage of patients had come out of the likes of the Pentecostal churches.
I have relatives who are "charismatic" and Christians in the family think they are mentally ill.
That is generalized anecdotal evidence. Fruit and messages should be judged specifically.
What is your source?
I through your claim into Copilot and it says:
There is no strong evidence that Pentecostal church attendance causes higher mental‑illness rates compared to other churches.
Large epidemiological studies show that religious attendance in general is associated with lower depression, anxiety, loneliness, and suicide risk — but they do not break out Pentecostals separately.So the big population‑level data does not show a mental‑health disadvantage for Pentecostal attenders.
Festus accused Paul of being mad. Paul also 'spoke in tongues more than ye all' as he wrote to the church in Corinth.
You read claims that Jesus, Peter, and Paul healed people. You read them in the Bible. Have you seen any of these healings with your own eyes?
I do not see any basis for differentiating between miraculous healings which comes in answer to PRAYER and that which comes from a special endowment called "the gift of healing" The assumption seems to be that the GIFT OF HEALING is when God delegates to certain individuals the supernatural ability to heal anyone anytime they wished.
Did anyone ever have this ability? Let us consider what Jesus said:
19 So Jesus replied, “Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son CAN DO NOTHING BY HIMSELF, UNLESS He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does. 20 The Father loves the Son and shows Him all He does. And to your amazement, He will show Him even greater works than these.…(John 5:19-20)
Did Jesus use HIS OWN power as the Second person of the Godhead to heal people? If that were the case, then He could indeed have healed anyone any time He wished. However, Jesus DENIED this image when He said He could do nothing by Himself (by His own initiative and power) UNLESS He SAW THE FATHER DOING IT. When He became human Jesus limited Himself to rely completely on the Father's wisdom, words and works.
Jesus' relationship with the Father mirrors our own dependence upon Him as the Vine:
I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing (John 15:5)
Consider one of the other spiritual gifts - prophecy. If a person is given the "gift of prophecy" does that mean he has a permanent live stream of prophetic words which are continually coming into the person's mind which he can "tap into" any time he wishes. That does not seem to be the case in the OT. When Balaam wanted to speak prophetic curses on Israel he found he was unable to speak anything bad about Israel. Even Elisha did not have unlimited access to the gift of prophecy. He only had supernatural knowledge when God gave it to him. It was the same with Elisha. When the widow came to seek his help and fell at his feet Gehazi wanted to push her away. Elisha said: “Leave her alone, for her soul is in deep distress, and the LORD has hidden it from me and has not told me.”
When Elisha was preparing to RECEIVE words of prophecy he had to be inspired which is why he called for a harpist:
15But now, bring me a harpist.” And while the harpist played, the hand of the LORD came upon Elisha 16 and he said, “This is what the LORD says: ‘Dig this valley full of ditches.’…(2 Kings 3:15)
Most of what Cessationists say about how the gifts operated relies on how they IMAGINE it did. Since they do not believe it ever happens they have little basis in experience to do anything but IMAGINE or SPECULATE.
So your default proposition is that God no longer heals anyone (supernaturally). This reminds me of Thomas who said he would not believe in the Resurrection unless he saw Christ and touched his wounds. Yet true believers since the beginning have put their faith in the resurrection. God is not inclined to perform miracles to prove Himself to skeptics. Yes I have experienced healing for which the supernatural working of God is the only explanation.
Absolutely false. We accept the testimony of the New Testament without seeing. Insisting that you'll be able to see every miracle before you believed it happened isn't reasonable for a Christian. You obviously haven't been reading my posts.
Also, it has to be stressed, JUST BECAUSE SOMETHING IS CLAIMED TO BE SUPERNATURAL, IT DOES NOT FOLLOW THAT IT IS SUPERNATURAL.
The Pentecostal Movement does not present the supernatural, it simply presents claims of the supernatural.
If God intended Chapter and Verse when He saw Matthew and John take notes He would have mentioned it.
The proposition of this discussion is claims of ongoing PHYSICAL SUPERNATURAL MANIFESTATIONS OF THE HOLY SPIRIT.
This is not about God proving Himself to skeptics.
The problem is he has misunderstood the argument in the first instance. No-one I learned from has argued the middle voice teaches "when" but indeed it is the very teaching of "how" tongues ends which sets it aside from how prophecy and knowledge end that gives rise to looking at more scripture as to what Paul is talking about. If those three gifts were to end at the return of Christ then they should all end the same way, they don't. The Greek teaches how they end are different.
The fact remains, the scriptures are all that is needed for maturing unto Christ. There is no word of knowledge or prophecy of future event that can be uttered that is not in the scriptures already. Indeed, if anyone tried to bring something new, then the majority of this forum would question it and ask for scriptural references to back it up.
The real question not asked...
If the temporary gifts of tongues and prophesy ceased?
Why do we see manifestations that claim to be them?
Those manifestations?
If there is real power involved?
And, we are to analyze them?
Are found in a fenced in area with a sign posted on it.
"Danger! Keep Out!"
I have personally witnessed to a professional hypnotist performing in a secular setting of a college campus.
Hypnotism produced the following...
People being slain in the spirit after he tapped them on their head.
People being filled "with love" for other people around them, they did not know.
Getting some people spontaneously laughing and getting the joy.
Getting some to speak in a make believe language.
And, getting others to translate for us.
Getting people to see and smell things that were not there....
Earlier in the performance?
He told us that only certain people can be hypnotized.
That we who are not hypnotizable?
We should simply watch, listen, and enjoy the evening.
I sat and watched to what was the equivalent to a secular Charismatic/Pentecostal revival.
I walked away that night having gained insight in what is deceiving some believers.
The safety net God has provided for some?
To believe the Word and not seek ways to rationalize it away.
Some may be brainwashed.
But, it is in many cases a real power that overtakes them.
Real power. That is why we are warned...
Prophesy was only one of the gifts.
Tongues also falls into such 'power enabling.'
I do not expect to win this argument.
I have no intention to.
It is only intended for those who have ears to hear.
grace and peace .....
If the temporary gifts of tongues and prophesy ceased?
Why do we see manifestations that claim to be them?
Those manifestations?
If there is real power involved?
And, we are to analyze them?
Are found in a fenced in area with a sign posted on it.
"Danger! Keep Out!"
I have personally witnessed to a professional hypnotist performing in a secular setting of a college campus.
Hypnotism produced the following...
People being slain in the spirit after he tapped them on their head.
People being filled "with love" for other people around them, they did not know.
Getting some people spontaneously laughing and getting the joy.
Getting some to speak in a make believe language.
And, getting others to translate for us.
Getting people to see and smell things that were not there....
Earlier in the performance?
He told us that only certain people can be hypnotized.
That we who are not hypnotizable?
We should simply watch, listen, and enjoy the evening.
I sat and watched to what was the equivalent to a secular Charismatic/Pentecostal revival.
I walked away that night having gained insight in what is deceiving some believers.
The safety net God has provided for some?
To believe the Word and not seek ways to rationalize it away.
1 Corinthians 13:8
Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease;
where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge,
it will pass away."
It is a very real power that sucks some in who are hypnotizable... Some may be brainwashed.
But, it is in many cases a real power that overtakes them.
Real power. That is why we are warned...
Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God,
because many false prophets have gone out into the world." 1 John 4:1
Prophesy was only one of the gifts.
Tongues also falls into such 'power enabling.'
I do not expect to win this argument.
I have no intention to.
It is only intended for those who have ears to hear.
grace and peace .....
The Greek says that some will end abruptly.
Others would fade out and gradually die out.
Now if it were about the gifts ending when Jesus returns?
Then all would be abrupted at once - like lightning!
Psychiatrists who reported this information to my pastor who taught on university campuses by invite.