If Jesus returns in 2030

[tourist]

Therefore, if it is true that Jesus will return on September 30, 2030, then it follows that the Beast's reign must begin no later than June 2027. If the world has not changed dramatically by June 2027, then one can conclude that Jesus will not return in 2030.

I have already concluded that Jesus will not return on September 30, 2030. Even Jesus himself does not know the date of his return. Only the Father knows this.

 

[Yahshua]

You don't know what ad hominem means.

Quite sure...

Definition from google for your edification:

Ad hominem guilt by association is a logical fallacy where a person's argument or character is attacked based on their affiliation with a disreputable person, group, or idea, rather than the merits of the argument itself.

While often a type of ad hominem (personal attack), it is a distinct fallacy because it specifically relies on the guilt of others to condemn the target, rather than the target's own actions.

Structure:
Person A makes claim C.

Person A is associated with group B (viewed negatively).

Therefore, claim C is false


Not only are we currently focused on me instead of the argument right now (ad hominem), but you literally did exactly what the definition says. You have every opportunity to address the details of the argument, but you've chosen not to...which is fine...but you're still disqualifying yourself.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Quite sure...

Definition from google for your edification:

Ad hominem guilt by association is a logical fallacy where a person's argument or character is attacked based on their affiliation with a disreputable person, group, or idea, rather than the merits of the argument itself.

While often a type of ad hominem (personal attack), it is a distinct fallacy because it specifically relies on the guilt of others to condemn the target, rather than the target's own actions.

Structure:
Person A makes claim C.

Person A is associated with group B (viewed negatively).

Therefore, claim C is false


Not only are we currently focused on me instead of the argument right now (ad hominem), but you literally did exactly what the definition says. You have every opportunity to address the details of the argument, but you've chosen not to...which is fine...but you're still disqualifying yourself.

John told us to beware of the gnostics and avoid their teachings. It's just foolishness to give what they believed any credibility.

Ad hominem is when you focus on the man about matters unrelated to the subject under discussion. For example, "don't listen to so-and-so because he beats his wife" is ad hominem. However, "don't listen to so-and-so because he is known liar" is not ad hominem.

 

[Yahshua]

John told us to beware of the gnostics and avoid their teachings. It's just foolishness to give what they believed any credibility.

Ad hominem is when you focus on the man about matters unrelated to the subject under discussion. For example, "don't listen to so-and-so because he beats his wife" is ad hominem. However, "don't listen to so-and-so because he is known liar" is not ad hominem.

Just like a "guilt by association" ad hominem is a widely recognized form of Ad Hominem (I mean...I just gave an official definition that one can also look up), a one-year ministry of the Messiah was a widely accepted teaching, taught by the early church fathers, for about 400 years, I believe.

Avoid the gnostics, but don't falsely insinuate that they were the ones who established the teaching. That's like claiming that since the gnostics believed that the Messiah was born a man, we shouldn't also believe the Messiah was a man. The logic fails. Prove that they originated the teaching rather than adopted it from the early church fathers. If you can do that, then your counter-argument won't be fallacious.

But if you can't...well...

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

But the SIGNS of his coming does matter, otherwise he wouldn't have given the longest speech to answer the disciples.

He talked about signs, but He didn't use His burial as one. So watch for the signs He talks about. Not His burial. That is just a distraction and a waste of time.

 

[Cameron143]

do not understand your math --- 3 - 24 hour days is 72 hours. where is the 4th 24 hours or even a 12 hour day?

in the tomb say 2 minutes before sundown on our Wednesday
Raised to Life 2 minutes before sundown on our Saturday --- totals 72 hours

if you are counting Wednesday, Thursday, Friday and Saturday as four days -- then you are ignoring the fact -- 3 -12 hour days and 3 - 12 hour nights can only be 72 hours.

Even if you count it as 4 days from the tomb to the resurrection it's still must be 72 hours which means He could not be resurrected sunday morning,

sunday morning would be another 12 hours -- sun set (6 PM) to sunrise (6AM) is 12 hours -- that would be 3 days and 4 nights.

Lets count it from Friday afternoon at sundown using how we now count days and nights;

placed in the tomb at sundown on a Friday: not in the tomb during the light/day of Friday, at sundown
in the tomb Friday night -- 12 hours --6 pm to 6 am
Saturday day -- 12 hours - 6 am to 6 pm
Saturday night -- 12 hours - 6 pm to 6 am
resurrected before sunrise Sunday morning

that is one 12 hour day and 2 - 12 hour nights --36 hours

9 Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day?

A day to God is 12 positions of the sun -- 12 "hours" of sun light.

3And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

4And God saw the light, that [it was] good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

You just mentioned 72 hours and showed that it included 4 days. You proved your own argument wrong. Further, 72 hours isn't mentioned in scripture. Nothing in scripture equates 3 days and 3 nights to a 72 hour period. Lastly, the Bible explicitly says that Jesus rose the 3rd day; not the 4th.

 

[Lovette]

Next, the account of Luke says "early in the morning" that the women went to the tomb to embalm Him but he was already gone.

Yeah, resurrected right on the cross, BEFORE he even was buried. Good luck with that.

When Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and laid it in his new tomb which he had hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a large stone against the door of the tomb, and departed. (Matt. 27:59-20)

 

[rewriter]

.... isn't that what I did? Provided evidence within is own writing that John 6:4 was added. Wouldnt that be an "edit"? Remove that one verse and it aligns with the other gospels.



We were trying to avoid any suppositions, and just taking evidence from the text given.



Agreed. Eyewitnesses knew exactly what He was doing and when. My argument isnt against the gospel of John or the eyewitness who penned it. My argument is that it was tampered with after the fact BECAUSE the eyewitness was so thorough in telling us exactly what the Messiah and other Jews did when feasts were near all throughout the account, which perfectly aligns with their strict ancient culture...except for John 6:4, breaking the established writing pattern of that very eyewitness In only one spot in the entirety of the account.

My argument is that it was edited at that one place later on, because the early church fathers said his ministry was "about one year". This all changed with Eusebius.


Give me some time with this. Im going to post summaries for each.


You're reading personal motive into my argument. John is fine except for the lone passage. I wouldn't have discovered it but for the fact of studying. And then I later discovered that many others found the same flaw too.

"Study to show thyself approved, rightly dividing the word of truth". It's no different than discovering how many italicized words added by the translators in an attempt to clarify the old language of the scriptures actually inadvertently change the meaning of verses and must be removed...unfortunately, later english editions have absorbed those added words as canon forever changing the meaning of verses.

The Word of God remains the untouched truth, preserved by the Almighty, but the Bible is flawed because of errors and changes. Like the translators mistakenly naming the feast of Unleavened Bread "Passover". It is our tasks to study and to dig through the human errors and the deception to show ourselves approved.

"It is the glory of God to conceal a matter, but the glory of kings to search it out" - Proverbs 25:2

Truth is the pearl of great price. We gotta dig.

One big problem is that the evidence for editing implies that chronologies were changed also. All it takes would be for the initial editor to move John 6:4 rather than for some later editor to insert it. And also, the verse is vague on timing. what does "nigh" means in this case. Chronologically it could mean coming in a short period of time, which would not mean that Jesus did not go to Jerusalem for the Passover until after He finished with what He wished to do in the immediate area, "I want to finish this, but then I will have to hurry to make Jerusalem for the festival"..

 

[memberofthebride]

You just mentioned 72 hours and showed that it included 4 days. You proved your own argument wrong. Further, 72 hours isn't mentioned in scripture. Nothing in scripture equates 3 days and 3 nights to a 72 hour period. Lastly, the Bible explicitly says that Jesus rose the 3rd day; not the 4th.

then explain how you get 3 days and 3 nights out of Friday night to sunday morning -- WHICH IS THE ONLY SIGN CHRIST IS THE CHRIST

in the tomb Friday night -- 12 hours --6 pm to 6 am
Saturday day -- 12 hours - 6 am to 6 pm
Saturday night -- 12 hours - 6 pm to 6 am

Show as I have above, how you get 3 days and 3 nights

38Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

utterly impossible to get 3 days and 3 nights from friday to sunday

please do not over look Christ stated a day has 12 hours

 

[Cameron143]

then explain how you get 3 days and 3 nights out of Friday night to sunday morning -- WHICH IS THE ONLY SIGN CHRIST IS THE CHRIST

in the tomb Friday night -- 12 hours --6 pm to 6 am
Saturday day -- 12 hours - 6 am to 6 pm
Saturday night -- 12 hours - 6 pm to 6 am

Show as I have above, how you get 3 days and 3 nights

38Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee. 39But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas: 40For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.

utterly impossible to get 3 days and 3 nights from friday to sunday

please do not over look Christ stated a day has 12 hours

You are being too literal.

To fulfill the sign of Jonah, Jesus' body need only be in the grave parts of 3 successive days.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

taught by the early church fathers

Unsubstantiated. The list I saw was fairly short and were names I didn't recognize besides a couple. Irenaeus was a well-known father who didn't believe it

 

[Yahshua]

Yeah, resurrected right on the cross, BEFORE he even was buried. Good luck with that.

When Joseph had taken the body, he wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and laid it in his new tomb which he had hewn out of the rock; and he rolled a large stone against the door of the tomb, and departed. (Matt. 27:59-20)

I'm trying to keep everyone's POV straight. By this response, are you arguing that there was a Good Friday crucifixion? As a reminder, I'm one of those who argue that there was a Wednesday crucifixion, followed by three subsequent nights and days of burial (spanning a High Sabbath), then a weekly Sabbath resurrection and the presentation of firstfruits on the first day of the new week.

 

[PaulThomson]

Then you created an inconsistent definition for "in the heart of the land", one night at Pilate's court on trial, the other two in the tomb, that ain't gonna work. That's something you made up to justify your unwarranted theory. You can't add an orange and two apples and count it as three apples.

Also, the Passover Feast was the burial of Jesus, that's the real fulfillment of the Passover, not the last supper.

Type into a search engine, “What is the heart to Korea?", or What is the heart of Israel?” You will get Seoul and Jerusalem. It means “What is the place that is most central to the life of the country?” gE means land, country, earth, ground. I am not making up a definition. It is certainly not an inconsistent definition.

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country (LXX ek tEs gEs), and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land (LXX eis tEn gEn) that I will shew thee:

BTW, Jesus was not judged by Pilate overnight. He was judged by the Jews overnight and taken to Pilate in the morning. Jerusalem was on the Temple Mount. Caiaphas’ house, the Sanhedrin, Pilate’s palace, Herod’s Jerusalem residence, Golgotha and Gethsemane were all on the Temple Mount. Jesus did not leave the temple mount from His trial before Caiaphas until His ascension to the father on Resurrection Sunday. That was novel for Jesus during His ministry, since He would always spend the nights outside Jerusalem, because the Jewish leaders were looking for opportunities to kill Him.

 

[memberofthebride]

You are being too literal.

To fulfill the sign of Jonah, Jesus' body need only be in the grave parts of 3 successive days.

even with this attempt to negate what Christ said, you are forgetting 3 parts of a night

I am done --

 

[Lovette]

Type into a search engine, “What is the heart to Korea?", or What is the heart of Israel?” You will get Seoul and Jerusalem. It means “What is the place that is most central to the life of the country?” gE means land, country, earth, ground. I am not making up a definition. It is certainly not an inconsistent definition.

Gen 12:1 Now the LORD had said unto Abram, Get thee out of thy country (LXX ek tEs gEs), and from thy kindred, and from thy father's house, unto a land (LXX eis tEn gEn) that I will shew thee:

BTW, Jesus was not judged by Pilate overnight. He was judged by the Jews overnight and taken to Pilate in the morning. Jerusalem was on the Temple Mount. Caiaphas’ house, the Sanhedrin, Pilate’s palace, Herod’s Jerusalem residence, Golgotha and Gethsemane were all on the Temple Mount. Jesus did not leave the temple mount from His trial before Caiaphas until His ascension to the father on Resurrection Sunday. That was novel for Jesus during His ministry, since He would always spend the nights outside Jerusalem, because the Jewish leaders were looking for opportunities to kill Him.

All irrelevant. Jesus also prophesized that He'd be risen (from the dead) in three days, which indicates he must be dead for three full 12-hour night, since night precedes day. Not being on trial for one night and buried for two nights, but DEAD for three full nights. The temple of his body was not destroyed when he was at Pilate's court.

Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” But He was speaking of the temple of His body. (Jn. 2:21)

 

[Lovette]

I'm trying to keep everyone's POV straight. By this response, are you arguing that there was a Good Friday crucifixion? As a reminder, I'm one of those who argue that there was a Wednesday crucifixion, followed by three subsequent nights and days of burial (spanning a High Sabbath), then a weekly Sabbath resurrection and the presentation of firstfruits on the first day of the new week.

No, I'm the one who's arguing for a Thursday crucifixion. Wednesday doesn't work because it'd be four nights from Wednesday evening to Sunday morning.

 

[PaulThomson]

All irrelevant. Jesus also prophesized that He'd be risen (from the dead) in three days, which indicates he must be dead for three full 12-hour night, since night precedes day. Not being on trial for one night and buried for two nights, but DEAD for three full nights. The temple of his body was not destroyed when he was at Pilate's court.

Jesus answered and said to them, “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.” Then the Jews said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and will You raise it up in three days?” But He was speaking of the temple of His body. (Jn. 2:21)

Are you aware of “Jewish inclusive reckoning”? You appear not to know about it.

Yes, our Lord’s body died on Friday afternoon. From 3 pm to nightfall is one Jewish day, by “Jewish inclusive reckoning”. Another day following that, the sabbath. And another part day, considered one day by “Jewish inclusive reckoning”. So He sat up in the tomb "in three days."

 

[Lovette]

Are you aware of “Jewish inclusive reckoning”? You appear not to know about it.

I am, that's why Sunday morning, beginning of the day is counted as the third day, no need for full 12 hours.

Yes, our Lord’s body died on Friday afternoon. From 3 pm to nightfall is one Jewish day, by “Jewish inclusive reckoning”. Another day following that, the sabbath. And another part day, considered one day by “Jewish inclusive reckoning”. So He sat up in the tomb "in three days."

No that doesn't work. First, he was when the next day has already come at evening sundown; second, even if from 3 pm to 6 pm counts as a day, still, a night is missing, in your reasoning there' may be three days, but only two nights from Friday afternoon to Sunday morning. Jesus must be DEAD, with a destroyed body, for three full nights.

 

[PaulThomson]

I am, that's why Sunday morning, beginning of the day is counted as the third day, no need for full 12 hours.

No that doesn't work. First, he was when the next day has already come at evening sundown; second, even if from 3 pm to 6 pm counts as a day, still, a night is missing, in your reasoning there' may be three days, but only two nights from Friday afternoon to Sunday morning. Jesus must be DEAD, with a destroyed body, for three full nights.

IMO You are confusing three different prophecies as if they are all about the same time period.

1. IMO the “as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale…” prophecy is not about Jesus being buried for three days and three nights, but about Jesus being in the heart of the land (i.e. on the Temple Mount, which was the heart of Israel) for three days and three nights, and was fulfilled by His arrest at midnight 14 Nisan and His confinement to the Temple Mount until He ascended from it to the Father on the morning of 16 Nisan at 9 am at the same time as the first-fruit sheaf was being waved before the Lord in the temple: one part night (14th Nisan) + one full day (14th Nisan) + one full night (15th Nisan) + one full day 15th Nisan) + one full night (16th Nisan) + one part day (16th Nisan) = "three days and three nights" by Jewish inclusive reckoning.

2. IMO the prophecy that if they destroyed this temple (His body), He would raise it up again after three days, is about the death of His body on 14th Nisan at 3 pm and His standing it up again alive on Resurrection Sunday morning, after three days by inclusive reckoning (on the 16th Nisan).

3. IMO the prophecies like those of Matt. 20:18-19, that He would be handed over to the Jews, condemned to death, delivered to the Gentiles, mocked, flogged and crucified, and raised the third day are about His arrest at midnight in Gethsemane to be delivered to the chief priests in the night of the 14th Nisan and His resurrection during dawn on the 16th Nisan. (Three Jewish days by inclusive reckoning.) .
Mat 20:18
“See, we are going up to Jerusalem. And the Son of Man will be delivered over to the chief priests and scribes, and they will condemn him to death
Mat 20:19
and deliver him over to the Gentiles to be mocked and flogged and crucified, and he will be raised on the third day.”

1 starts after Jesus is brought back across the Brook Kidron and ends with His ascension to the Father.
2 starts with Jesus’ death on the cross and ends with His standing up in the tomb.
3 starts with Jesus arrest in Gethsemane and ends with His standing up in the tomb.

 

[Lovette]

IMO You are confusing three different prophecies as if they are all about the same time period.

Your opinion is erroneous, these three prophecies are the same, the bible is consistent.