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J
Hmmm...we shouldn't listen to Amy Grant because she made a mistake in younger years? Does that mean we shouldn't read/sing the Psalms? King David made the exactly same mistake.....
Broad generalizations are always dangerous. Some music found in christian music sales areas is indeed worshipful and intended as such, i.e. a quote from Jeremy Camp:
"I wanted to write songs that blessed people, but God spoke to my heart and said, Jeremy, write songs that bless Me and I'll take care of the people."
Even if the music is not worshipful, it is still better than most of the secular junk we COULD be listening to. Seems like it would fall into this category:
Phil 4:8 - Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.
Music is no different from so-called christian books and movies, or even some of the copy and paste blather that is posted in forums from time to time. It must ALL be washed through the Word. If it doesn't stand the test, dump it; but there's no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
Broad generalizations are always dangerous. Some music found in christian music sales areas is indeed worshipful and intended as such, i.e. a quote from Jeremy Camp:
"I wanted to write songs that blessed people, but God spoke to my heart and said, Jeremy, write songs that bless Me and I'll take care of the people."
Even if the music is not worshipful, it is still better than most of the secular junk we COULD be listening to. Seems like it would fall into this category:
Phil 4:8 - Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable--if anything is excellent or praiseworthy--think about such things.
Music is no different from so-called christian books and movies, or even some of the copy and paste blather that is posted in forums from time to time. It must ALL be washed through the Word. If it doesn't stand the test, dump it; but there's no need to throw the baby out with the bathwater.
H
same here, non-believers are tired of seeing hate in the church, and 'ignorant' (by ignorant I mean Christians who are oblivious to dif things, like music.. and stuff.) Their not gonna wanna be saved if you tell them they can't listen to christian hardcore.lol.Ignore rainacorn, I talked to other people in the chat-rooms,, and they said he's scared off a few people from this site. Show him love, but don't let anything he says get to you. Ranacorn, you have touched my heart, and I will be praying for you, bashing everything you see is not what a Christian is suppose to do, and rainacorn, when I said shut-up, I said 'shut-up, you can't even show me half a verse to back up your side' Jesus told people to be quiet 
rainacorn, I will no longer be commenting, but I will pray that the LOVE and KINDNESS of Jesus reaches out to you.
rainacorn, I will no longer be commenting, but I will pray that the LOVE and KINDNESS of Jesus reaches out to you.
H
the issue is not what you believe, the issue is that you are trying to make everyone else believe the way you do. Don't like Christian rap/etc, then don't listen to it, it's that simple.... religion kills, but a relationship with God heals. Jesus told the religious people that they were going to Hell. It's not about religion at all. No matter what we do as Humans, we can not please God, the bible says our rightfulness is filthy rags to God.so even if we didn't sin at all, we'd still be filthy rags, no one can earn salvation.it's a gift.
You know I am always reminded of this scenario in the bible where the slave girl followed Paul declaring that they were men of God.
It's a guiding story for my life that we live in a world where a lot of things and persons appear to be what they are not.
Here is this girl following men of God and declaring that they are men of God...What could be wrong with that? After all she was speaking the truth. they were men of God. But who was the source of her information?...
Ministry is a whole package. Its not just what you say or sing; its your life.It is why Christ said in Matt 5:37; let your yes be yes and your no be no, and that anything outside of that is from the evil one; it means let what you say and what you do be the same.
It's a guiding story for my life that we live in a world where a lot of things and persons appear to be what they are not.
Here is this girl following men of God and declaring that they are men of God...What could be wrong with that? After all she was speaking the truth. they were men of God. But who was the source of her information?...
Ministry is a whole package. Its not just what you say or sing; its your life.It is why Christ said in Matt 5:37; let your yes be yes and your no be no, and that anything outside of that is from the evil one; it means let what you say and what you do be the same.
S
First of all, it would be nice if you meshed your posts into one - two tops - as opposed to spamming the thread with multiple, redundant ones.
Second, you're being hypocritical, and even defaulted to mercy, as rainacorn somewhat previously pointed out.
Third, I don't recall rainacorn exactly "bashing" anybody's taste in music. And this comment can be directed towards anybody posting that has made that assumption.
The OP drew the line and pointed directly at it. I don't understand where the egregious misunderstanding is stemming from. This thread has nothing to do with people's musical taste, as far as I have read; let alone their taste in "Christian artists". It has more to do with the meaning - or lack thereof - in the lyrical content, the commercialism, and the genre subjugation by lyrical content vs other genre-defining elements.
And I do believe it had something to do with llamas, as well.
Second, you're being hypocritical, and even defaulted to mercy, as rainacorn somewhat previously pointed out.
Third, I don't recall rainacorn exactly "bashing" anybody's taste in music. And this comment can be directed towards anybody posting that has made that assumption.
The OP drew the line and pointed directly at it. I don't understand where the egregious misunderstanding is stemming from. This thread has nothing to do with people's musical taste, as far as I have read; let alone their taste in "Christian artists". It has more to do with the meaning - or lack thereof - in the lyrical content, the commercialism, and the genre subjugation by lyrical content vs other genre-defining elements.
And I do believe it had something to do with llamas, as well.
A
First of all, it would be nice if you meshed your posts into one - two tops - as opposed to spamming the thread with multiple, redundant ones.
Second, you're being hypocritical, and even defaulted to mercy, as rainacorn somewhat previously pointed out.
Third, I don't recall rainacorn exactly "bashing" anybody's taste in music. And this comment can be directed towards anybody posting that has made that assumption.
The OP drew the line and pointed directly at it. I don't understand where the egregious misunderstanding is stemming from. This thread has nothing to do with people's musical taste, as far as I have read; let alone their taste in "Christian artists". It has more to do with the meaning - or lack thereof - in the lyrical content, the commercialism, and the genre subjugation by lyrical content vs other genre-defining elements.
And I do believe it had something to do with llamas, as well.
Second, you're being hypocritical, and even defaulted to mercy, as rainacorn somewhat previously pointed out.
Third, I don't recall rainacorn exactly "bashing" anybody's taste in music. And this comment can be directed towards anybody posting that has made that assumption.
The OP drew the line and pointed directly at it. I don't understand where the egregious misunderstanding is stemming from. This thread has nothing to do with people's musical taste, as far as I have read; let alone their taste in "Christian artists". It has more to do with the meaning - or lack thereof - in the lyrical content, the commercialism, and the genre subjugation by lyrical content vs other genre-defining elements.
And I do believe it had something to do with llamas, as well.
yes its all about the llamas
Rainacorn take heart I and Siberian_Khatru understand why you made the thread and I think a call for discernment and THINKING about what you are listening to is wise and very Biblical since we are to take EVERY thought captive into obedience to God. Self control should extend not only to actions but also to thoughts one meditates upon.
J
2 Samuel 6 - 16 As the ark of the LORD was entering the City of David, Michal daughter of Saul watched from a window. And when she saw King David leaping and dancing before the LORD, she despised him in her heart.
17 They brought the ark of the LORD and set it in its place inside the tent that David had pitched for it, and David sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings before the LORD. 18 After he had finished sacrificing the burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD Almighty. 19 Then he gave a loaf of bread, a cake of dates and a cake of raisins to each person in the whole crowd of Israelites, both men and women. And all the people went to their homes.
20 When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, “How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, going around half-naked in full view of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!”
21 David said to Michal, “It was before the LORD, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the LORD’s people Israel—I will celebrate before the LORD. 22 I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor.” 23 And Michal daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.
Just a little wisdom re: guarding our words when we talk about how others praise/worship.
17 They brought the ark of the LORD and set it in its place inside the tent that David had pitched for it, and David sacrificed burnt offerings and fellowship offerings before the LORD. 18 After he had finished sacrificing the burnt offerings and fellowship offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD Almighty. 19 Then he gave a loaf of bread, a cake of dates and a cake of raisins to each person in the whole crowd of Israelites, both men and women. And all the people went to their homes.
20 When David returned home to bless his household, Michal daughter of Saul came out to meet him and said, “How the king of Israel has distinguished himself today, going around half-naked in full view of the slave girls of his servants as any vulgar fellow would!”
21 David said to Michal, “It was before the LORD, who chose me rather than your father or anyone from his house when he appointed me ruler over the LORD’s people Israel—I will celebrate before the LORD. 22 I will become even more undignified than this, and I will be humiliated in my own eyes. But by these slave girls you spoke of, I will be held in honor.” 23 And Michal daughter of Saul had no children to the day of her death.
Just a little wisdom re: guarding our words when we talk about how others praise/worship.
rainacorn
In the future it may be more beneficial to choose your words more carefully. At this point it appears as though you intentionally stated things in an aggressive manner. What purpose would you have in doing so? I don't think many people would have argued against the idea that music shouldn't be judged by its label. That said, things that christian labels are willing to produce is 99.9% of the time more righteous in content than comparable secular music.
I'm going to try and summarize your points in my own words. If I am misunderstanding any point, please try to rephrase it, or agree that it is accurate. I'd like to address some of these, but so far it seems like you've spent a lot of time claiming that others are presenting arguments against points you haven't attempted to make.
- Christian music is music produced by a christian record label; similarly christian musicians are those who are currently(or were before crossing over) on a christian record label.
- Christian Music is blah at best and largely copy-cat work of secular artists, so isn't appealing; They don't have good high-quality, original, musicality.
- Christian musicians(especially cross-over artists) lead sinful lives, or water down their message to get signed to a major label.
- Some(many?) Christian musicians are exploiting christians(or God?) to become rich.
- Christian music is no better than secular music "by every measure" and may even be sinful by leading christians astray.
If we can agree on these, I will address them in my next post.
In the future it may be more beneficial to choose your words more carefully. At this point it appears as though you intentionally stated things in an aggressive manner. What purpose would you have in doing so? I don't think many people would have argued against the idea that music shouldn't be judged by its label. That said, things that christian labels are willing to produce is 99.9% of the time more righteous in content than comparable secular music.
I'm going to try and summarize your points in my own words. If I am misunderstanding any point, please try to rephrase it, or agree that it is accurate. I'd like to address some of these, but so far it seems like you've spent a lot of time claiming that others are presenting arguments against points you haven't attempted to make.
- Christian music is music produced by a christian record label; similarly christian musicians are those who are currently(or were before crossing over) on a christian record label.
- Christian Music is blah at best and largely copy-cat work of secular artists, so isn't appealing; They don't have good high-quality, original, musicality.
- Christian musicians(especially cross-over artists) lead sinful lives, or water down their message to get signed to a major label.
- Some(many?) Christian musicians are exploiting christians(or God?) to become rich.
- Christian music is no better than secular music "by every measure" and may even be sinful by leading christians astray.
If we can agree on these, I will address them in my next post.
R
Accurate enough, I suppose. I personally believe "Christian music" is any music made by a Christian, whether or not is is labeled as such, but for the purposes of this thread, I'm addressing mainly the music that comes through Christian labels and their traditional CCM type outlets.
Over generalization. I would say there is quite a bit of contemporary Christian music that copies the work of secular artists. I'm not sure if anyone remembers this, but Christian stores used to put posters out that would list all the biggest mainstream artists of the day and next to it would be their 'Christian equivalents.' Replacement versions just for Christians! It's a method/strategy still in practice today, although I haven't seen those posters in a while.
That is not to say ALL CCM is copycat stuff. My point since the beginning is that you cannot generalize "Christian" artists. You have to take them on their own merits both in quality of the work they produce and their sincerity in their message.
Some do. Not all. Not even most.
The Amy Grant example came out of a conversation I was having with someone. They held her up on some kind of pedestal because she's a Christian artist. When I mentioned she cheated on her then husband with her now husband THEY REFUSED TO BELIEVE ME. They even accused me of lying and having something against her personally. I don't have anything against her, but I do think it's pretty stupid to think someone is totally flawless just because you like their music.
Sadly, when what I said was confirmed, this woman THREW OUT her Amy Grant cds. She said she could never listen to her the same way again. People like that exist. You may not be one of them, but they do exist.
Yes, some. You have this one correct. It's not always the musicians themselves but rather the pressure from their 'handlers.' The INDUSTRY isn't Christian- the audience is. But it is, on occasion, a calculated move by the artist. It's like Bon Jovi suddenly releasing a Country album. He's not a country boy...he's from New Jersey. But Country sells better than 80s rock or even Adult Contemporary. He's a businessman.
It's a smart move from a business perspective, as is getting into Christian music. They both inspire fan loyalty (and therefore income) in ways no other genre does.
Yes. Again, I think just because you call something Christian does not make it so. Music is music. It's a completely level playing field, as far as I'm concerned. God is not limited to one record label over another. Music that glorifies Him can be sold or discovered literally anywhere, not just Mardel.
Unfortunately, not everyone feels this way. There are plenty of people who will buy and defend ANY artist if they are labeled as Christian. There are also those who will completely reject an artist without even hearing them if they know they are 'secular.' I think that's silly and it's not properly applying discernment. It's lazy and dangerous.
I can't continue on with these threads. If you check the dates it's been going on for months now. I said what I wanted to say and I'm done with it. It's my opinion. You're totally free to disagree with me, just don't twist my words.
Over generalization. I would say there is quite a bit of contemporary Christian music that copies the work of secular artists. I'm not sure if anyone remembers this, but Christian stores used to put posters out that would list all the biggest mainstream artists of the day and next to it would be their 'Christian equivalents.' Replacement versions just for Christians! It's a method/strategy still in practice today, although I haven't seen those posters in a while.
That is not to say ALL CCM is copycat stuff. My point since the beginning is that you cannot generalize "Christian" artists. You have to take them on their own merits both in quality of the work they produce and their sincerity in their message.
Some do. Not all. Not even most.
The Amy Grant example came out of a conversation I was having with someone. They held her up on some kind of pedestal because she's a Christian artist. When I mentioned she cheated on her then husband with her now husband THEY REFUSED TO BELIEVE ME. They even accused me of lying and having something against her personally. I don't have anything against her, but I do think it's pretty stupid to think someone is totally flawless just because you like their music.
Sadly, when what I said was confirmed, this woman THREW OUT her Amy Grant cds. She said she could never listen to her the same way again. People like that exist. You may not be one of them, but they do exist.
Yes, some. You have this one correct. It's not always the musicians themselves but rather the pressure from their 'handlers.' The INDUSTRY isn't Christian- the audience is. But it is, on occasion, a calculated move by the artist. It's like Bon Jovi suddenly releasing a Country album. He's not a country boy...he's from New Jersey. But Country sells better than 80s rock or even Adult Contemporary. He's a businessman.
It's a smart move from a business perspective, as is getting into Christian music. They both inspire fan loyalty (and therefore income) in ways no other genre does.
Yes. Again, I think just because you call something Christian does not make it so. Music is music. It's a completely level playing field, as far as I'm concerned. God is not limited to one record label over another. Music that glorifies Him can be sold or discovered literally anywhere, not just Mardel.
Unfortunately, not everyone feels this way. There are plenty of people who will buy and defend ANY artist if they are labeled as Christian. There are also those who will completely reject an artist without even hearing them if they know they are 'secular.' I think that's silly and it's not properly applying discernment. It's lazy and dangerous.
I can't continue on with these threads. If you check the dates it's been going on for months now. I said what I wanted to say and I'm done with it. It's my opinion. You're totally free to disagree with me, just don't twist my words.
Alright, here we go then, as promised, I'll address some points!
- Christian music is music produced by a christian record label; similarly christian musicians are those who are currently(or were before crossing over) on a christian record label.
I was just trying to define christian music as it seemed you were doing here. It seems that you were intending to be more general in your claim of over-generalization, so I'll try and address both christian labels and christian artists in each of the following points.
- Christian Music is blah at best and largely copy-cat work of secular artists, so isn't appealing; They don't have good high-quality, original, musicality.
I seem to have misunderstood this originally; I'll respond to your current statement:
My point since the beginning is that you cannot generalize "Christian" artists. You have to take them on their own merits both in quality of the work they produce and their sincerity in their message.
The problem here is that you are asking us to judge artists. Biblically speaking, we are neither qualified nor capable of judging people beyond the result that their actions have on others (Matthew 7). I will agree that some level of discernment is required when accepting the lyrics of individual songs; however to judge an artist based on very limited interaction with them, and without a true understanding of their affect on others, is not beneficial to anyone involved.
- Christian musicians(especially cross-over artists) lead sinful lives, or water down their message to get signed to a major label.
I seem to have misunderstood this as well. You pointed out both Amy Grant and Stryper as leading sinful lives and seemed to be holding them up as examples of why christian music was no better than secular music. Conceded.
- Some(many?) Christian musicians are exploiting christians(or God?) to become rich.
This is where your argument really starts to fall apart. You claim to hate something that God actually "supports." In Phillipians we see clearly stated:
I will agree that taken in conjunction with songs that are NOT spreading the word, the selfish motives do become nearly as bad as secular musics'. That said, I don't see convincing evidence that most christian songs do not contain explicit biblical concepts or at least christian world-views.
So, if you wish to argue that there are a few grey sheep mixed in, I won't disagree. But to support a claim that there are wolves mixed in will take much more support than you have thus far provided.
- Christian music is no better than secular music "by every measure" and may even be sinful by leading christians astray.
This is where things really start getting complicated and where I must adamantly disagree with you. As you mentioned in a previous post, the vast majority of people listening to christian music are people who are already christian. Even if the music labels are "greedy sons of guns" christians do follow a much more strict moral compass than the rest of the world. Can some thing slip through under the radar? Certainly, but in general christian music will be less worldly. When you compare the mellowest secular music with the most "racy" christian music, you can just barely call them equal. If you look at the average secular music, you see so much that you would never find in a christian song... Sex, pimps and ho's, drugs, degradation, hate, violence, blasphemy. As for christian songs being sinful, I think you would be incredibly hard pressed to provide evidence that an artist knowingly and willing created a song with the intent purpose of misleading christians. We do live in Satan's world, I'm sure he's busy trying to find ways to mislead, but would I dare judge a christian artist, or christian music based on these specks of sin that push their way through? Absolutely not.
I will concede that there could be songs produced by secular labels that are righteous. I will concede that there are songs produced by christian labels that aren't fervently righteous. But given a random christian label song and random secular label song, the chances of the christian label song being righteous is just too high to claim that they are no better. Christian music is ABSOLUTELY better than secular music using the one measure that truly counts: is it seeking righteousness?
- Christian music is music produced by a christian record label; similarly christian musicians are those who are currently(or were before crossing over) on a christian record label.
I was just trying to define christian music as it seemed you were doing here. It seems that you were intending to be more general in your claim of over-generalization, so I'll try and address both christian labels and christian artists in each of the following points.
- Christian Music is blah at best and largely copy-cat work of secular artists, so isn't appealing; They don't have good high-quality, original, musicality.
I seem to have misunderstood this originally; I'll respond to your current statement:
My point since the beginning is that you cannot generalize "Christian" artists. You have to take them on their own merits both in quality of the work they produce and their sincerity in their message.
The problem here is that you are asking us to judge artists. Biblically speaking, we are neither qualified nor capable of judging people beyond the result that their actions have on others (Matthew 7). I will agree that some level of discernment is required when accepting the lyrics of individual songs; however to judge an artist based on very limited interaction with them, and without a true understanding of their affect on others, is not beneficial to anyone involved.
- Christian musicians(especially cross-over artists) lead sinful lives, or water down their message to get signed to a major label.
I seem to have misunderstood this as well. You pointed out both Amy Grant and Stryper as leading sinful lives and seemed to be holding them up as examples of why christian music was no better than secular music. Conceded.
- Some(many?) Christian musicians are exploiting christians(or God?) to become rich.
This is where your argument really starts to fall apart. You claim to hate something that God actually "supports." In Phillipians we see clearly stated:
I will agree that taken in conjunction with songs that are NOT spreading the word, the selfish motives do become nearly as bad as secular musics'. That said, I don't see convincing evidence that most christian songs do not contain explicit biblical concepts or at least christian world-views.
So, if you wish to argue that there are a few grey sheep mixed in, I won't disagree. But to support a claim that there are wolves mixed in will take much more support than you have thus far provided.
- Christian music is no better than secular music "by every measure" and may even be sinful by leading christians astray.
This is where things really start getting complicated and where I must adamantly disagree with you. As you mentioned in a previous post, the vast majority of people listening to christian music are people who are already christian. Even if the music labels are "greedy sons of guns" christians do follow a much more strict moral compass than the rest of the world. Can some thing slip through under the radar? Certainly, but in general christian music will be less worldly. When you compare the mellowest secular music with the most "racy" christian music, you can just barely call them equal. If you look at the average secular music, you see so much that you would never find in a christian song... Sex, pimps and ho's, drugs, degradation, hate, violence, blasphemy. As for christian songs being sinful, I think you would be incredibly hard pressed to provide evidence that an artist knowingly and willing created a song with the intent purpose of misleading christians. We do live in Satan's world, I'm sure he's busy trying to find ways to mislead, but would I dare judge a christian artist, or christian music based on these specks of sin that push their way through? Absolutely not.
I will concede that there could be songs produced by secular labels that are righteous. I will concede that there are songs produced by christian labels that aren't fervently righteous. But given a random christian label song and random secular label song, the chances of the christian label song being righteous is just too high to claim that they are no better. Christian music is ABSOLUTELY better than secular music using the one measure that truly counts: is it seeking righteousness?
A
lightiningclap you still totally misunderstood her words.
I'll keep it simple for you.
she said that the music is what should be judged not the artist or their lives and that people should use their brains to compare it to scripture and God's word not their emotions to determine if it is Godly or not.
She held Amy Grant as someone a person she knows basically worshpped because they liked her music but refused to see reality and the truth of her life. Rainacorn, unlike you and your words actually was sadden when her friend throw away cds she liked because of the artist personally sins.
she again and again declares the merit or dismerit should be found in the music and words themselves and NOT in the label or the artist sing it. that discernment should be used for ALL songs from ANY artist whether they are Christian declaring or not. That there are some secular songs that hold more merit to pointing people to living godly lives then some self proclaimed Christian ones.
I believe God can be found in all genres of music, but not all who proclaim themselves Christian are truly worshiping God in Spirit and in Truth.
I like Amy Grant's songs and don't care that she is a sinner because we are all sinners and we need to pray and repent and help one another overcome the sin not condemn and shun others.
I'll keep it simple for you.
she said that the music is what should be judged not the artist or their lives and that people should use their brains to compare it to scripture and God's word not their emotions to determine if it is Godly or not.
She held Amy Grant as someone a person she knows basically worshpped because they liked her music but refused to see reality and the truth of her life. Rainacorn, unlike you and your words actually was sadden when her friend throw away cds she liked because of the artist personally sins.
she again and again declares the merit or dismerit should be found in the music and words themselves and NOT in the label or the artist sing it. that discernment should be used for ALL songs from ANY artist whether they are Christian declaring or not. That there are some secular songs that hold more merit to pointing people to living godly lives then some self proclaimed Christian ones.
I believe God can be found in all genres of music, but not all who proclaim themselves Christian are truly worshiping God in Spirit and in Truth.
I like Amy Grant's songs and don't care that she is a sinner because we are all sinners and we need to pray and repent and help one another overcome the sin not condemn and shun others.
Ana,
If you would like to present your own points, I will willingly address them. The majority of this post, however seems to be without merit. Rainacorn has already explained this many times. It's clear as can be, but that isn't all that she has explained. Though this thread may boil down to "don't judge a book by its cover" there have been many other opinions and points brought up throughout. I have already agreed that it is not good to judge christian songs by the label that produced it. If you missed that before, here it is again:
Note: Rainacorn seems like a perfectly intelligent person, I do believe that she can defend her statements quite well on her own. I haven't made wild accusations, but have attempted to address things in a straightforward, systematic manner. Be careful that you don't fall into the illusion of asymmetrical insight.
If you would like to present your own points, I will willingly address them. The majority of this post, however seems to be without merit. Rainacorn has already explained this many times. It's clear as can be, but that isn't all that she has explained. Though this thread may boil down to "don't judge a book by its cover" there have been many other opinions and points brought up throughout. I have already agreed that it is not good to judge christian songs by the label that produced it. If you missed that before, here it is again:
Note: Rainacorn seems like a perfectly intelligent person, I do believe that she can defend her statements quite well on her own. I haven't made wild accusations, but have attempted to address things in a straightforward, systematic manner. Be careful that you don't fall into the illusion of asymmetrical insight.