The book of Job

[Genez]

So Job wasn't as bad as Satan, because Job repented of his sin?

Job was suffering in great agony.
He knew God allowed for it to happen.
Unlike Satan when God was punishing him, Job refused to curse God.

Satan at one point inspired Job's wife to tempt Job to do so.

Then Job took a piece of broken pottery to scrape himself while he sat among the ashes.

His wife said to him, “Do you still retain your integrity? Curse God and die!”

“You speak as a foolish woman speaks,” he told her.
“Should we accept only good from God and not adversity?”
Throughout all this Job did not sin in what he said.​

​

Job 2:8-10​

 

[Genez]

So Job wasn't as bad as Satan, because Job repented of his sin?

Job did not instigate what happened to him.

With Satan, he did instigate and chose to think evil towards the Lord.

 

[tttallison]

Job was suffering in great agony.
He knew God allowed for it to happen.
Unlike Satan when God was punishing him, Job refused to curse God.

Satan at one point inspired Job's wife to tempt Job to do so.

Then Job took a piece of broken pottery to scrape himself while he sat among the ashes.​

​

His wife said to him, “Do you still retain your integrity? Curse God and die!”​

​

“You speak as a foolish woman speaks,” he told her.​

“Should we accept only good from God and not adversity?”​

Throughout all this Job did not sin in what he said.​

​

Job 2:8-10​

Job didn't curse God with his lips, nor did Job bless God.

Is to not tell the truth the same thing as lying? Is to not bless God the same as cursing God?

In the immediate next chapter, after the second test, Job curses his day. It is interesting that the word for curse in the third chapter actually means curse, for it is not the same word as found in Satan's challenge, which in the Hebrew means to bless not.

 

[tttallison]

Job did not instigate what happened to him.

With Satan, he did instigate and chose to think evil towards the Lord.

What about God asking Job if he was going to take him for a servant forever?

 

[DavidLamb]

Job didn't curse God with his lips, nor did Job bless God.

Is to not tell the truth the same thing as lying? Is to not bless God the same as cursing God?

In the immediate next chapter, after the second test, Job curses his day. It is interesting that the word for curse in the third chapter actually means curse, for it is not the same word as found in Satan's challenge, which in the Hebrew means to bless not.

I disagree with your statement that Job did not bless God. He did:

(Job 1:20) Then Job arose, tore his robe, and shaved his head; and he fell to the ground and worshiped.
(Job 1:21) And he said: "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked shall I return there. The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; Blessed be the name of the LORD."

 

[DavidLamb]

What about God asking Job if he was going to take him for a servant forever?

I wonder what passage in Job you are thinking of. There is this verse:

(Job 41:4) Will he make a covenant with you? Will you take him as a servant forever?

But "he" and "him" refer to Leviathan. Job 41:4 is part of a passage which begins:

(Job 41:1) "Can you draw out Leviathan with a hook, Or snare his tongue with a line which you lower?

I can't find a verse where God asks Job if he was going to take him for a servant forever.

 

[tttallison]

I disagree with your statement that Job did not bless God. He did:

(Job 1:20) Then Job arose, tore his robe, and shaved his head; and he fell to the ground and worshiped.
(Job 1:21) And he said: "Naked I came from my mother's womb, And naked shall I return there. The LORD gave, and the LORD has taken away; Blessed be the name of the LORD."

Evidently you haven't read post 410 where the two tests were laid out. Job passed the first test when he blessed God, but Job didn't bless God after the second test.

I wonder what passage in Job you are thinking of. There is this verse:

(Job 41:4) Will he make a covenant with you? Will you take him as a servant forever?

But "he" and "him" refer to Leviathan. Job 41:4 is part of a passage which begins:

(Job 41:1) "Can you draw out Leviathan with a hook, Or snare his tongue with a line which you lower?

I can't find a verse where God asks Job if he was going to take him for a servant forever.

That is the verse I was referring to. Perhaps you don't see Leviathan as Satan. I would have to assume that you don't see the serpent in the garden as Satan either.

Leviathan beholds all high things. Remember when Satan was observing the meeting between God and his sons? Was that a high thing? Is Satan king over all the children of pride?

 

[DavidLamb]

Evidently you haven't read post 410 where the two tests were laid out. Job passed the first test when he blessed God, but Job didn't bless God after the second test.


That is the verse I was referring to. Perhaps you don't see Leviathan as Satan. I would have to assume that you don't see the serpent in the garden as Satan either.

Leviathan beholds all high things. Remember when Satan was observing the meeting between God and his sons? Was that a high thing? Is Satan king over all the children of pride?

No, I don't see Leviathan as Satan. The bible is clear that the serpent is indeed the devil, Satan:

(Rev 12:9) So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

None of the 5 references to Leviathan, however, say that Leviathan is Satan.

 

[tttallison]

No, I don't see Leviathan as Satan. The bible is clear that the serpent is indeed the devil, Satan:

(Rev 12:9) So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

None of the 5 references to Leviathan, however, say that Leviathan is Satan.

There is nothing that says the serpent in the garden is Satan either.

Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Remember that leviathan beholds all high things, and that he is king over all the children of pride.

 

[DavidLamb]

There is nothing that says the serpent in the garden is Satan either.

Isa 27:1 In that day the LORD with his sore and great and strong sword shall punish leviathan the piercing serpent, even leviathan that crooked serpent; and he shall slay the dragon that is in the sea.

Remember that leviathan beholds all high things, and that he is king over all the children of pride.

But there is. I quote a verse from Revelation, that refers to that serpent being Satan/the devil. Perhaps you meant that there is nothing in Genesis 3 to indicate that the serpent was the devil. But God's word should be taken as a whole.

 

[tttallison]

But there is. I quote a verse from Revelation, that refers to that serpent being Satan/the devil. Perhaps you meant that there is nothing in Genesis 3 to indicate that the serpent was the devil. But God's word should be taken as a whole.

I agree with you that God's word should be taken as a whole. So why is it that you don't see the crooked serpent, the dragon of the sea who beholds all high things, who is king over all the children of pride, and is going to be dealt with at a latter day, as Satan? Is it because it doesn't bode well with the accepted narrative of Job?

 

[DavidLamb]

I agree with you that God's word should be taken as a whole. So why is it that you don't see the crooked serpent, the dragon of the sea who beholds all high things, who is king over all the children of pride, and is going to be dealt with at a latter day, as Satan? Is it because it doesn't bode well with the accepted narrative of Job?

Rather, it is because of what the bible says elsewhere about Leviathan:

(Psa 104:25) This great and wide sea, In which are innumerable teeming things, Living things both small and great.
(Psa 104:26) There the ships sail about; There is that Leviathan Which You have made to play there.

Is Satan made by God to play in the sea?

(Psa 74:13) You divided the sea by Your strength; You broke the heads of the sea serpents in the waters.
(Psa 74:14) You broke the heads of Leviathan in pieces, And gave him as food to the people inhabiting the wilderness.

Did God give Satan as food to the people inhabiting the wilderness?

 

[tttallison]

Rather, it is because of what the bible says elsewhere about Leviathan:

(Psa 104:25) This great and wide sea, In which are innumerable teeming things, Living things both small and great.
(Psa 104:26) There the ships sail about; There is that Leviathan Which You have made to play there.

Is Satan made by God to play in the sea?

(Psa 74:13) You divided the sea by Your strength; You broke the heads of the sea serpents in the waters.
(Psa 74:14) You broke the heads of Leviathan in pieces, And gave him as food to the people inhabiting the wilderness.

Did God give Satan as food to the people inhabiting the wilderness?

Are all high things established in the sea? Does the king over all the children of pride reside in the sea? Was the king of Tyrus Satan? And if not what was he doing in the garden of Eden? Was the Pharaoh a cedar in the garden of God? Is every tree a man? Is every leviathan Satan?

I agree with you that God's word should be taken as a whole. Sometimes our bias leads us astray.

 

[DavidLamb]

Are all high things established in the sea? Does the king over all the children of pride reside in the sea? Was the king of Tyrus Satan? And if not what was he doing in the garden of Eden? Was the Pharaoh a cedar in the garden of God? Is every tree a man? Is every leviathan Satan?

I agree with you that God's word should be taken as a whole. Sometimes our bias leads us astray.

Regarding your first two questions, I agree with the commentator John Gill, who wrote:

"To which may be added, that this creature was found among the Troglodytes who lived near the Red sea, and not far from Arabia, where Job dwelt, and so might be well known by him: and besides, of all creatures, it is the most lively emblem of the devil, which all the ancient Christian writers make leviathan to be;"

Regarding the king of Tyrus, I found two bible references to him:

Jer_27:3 And send them to the king of Edom, and to the king of Moab, and to the king of the Ammonites, and to the king of Tyrus, and to the king of Zidon, by the hand of the messengers which come to Jerusalem unto Zedekiah king of Judah;
Ezk_28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Neither of those verses say that he is Satan, or that he was present in the Garden of Eden. (Tyrus was another name for Tyre.)

I could not think of a bible reference to Pharaoh being a cedar in the garden of God.

I don't believe that trees are men, although the bible often pictures men as being like trees. For example:

(Psa 1:3) He shall be like a tree Planted by the rivers of water, That brings forth its fruit in its season, Whose leaf also shall not wither; And whatever he does shall prosper.

 

[christophernyc]

There isn't a translation but their is a bible that says bless. Called the Hebrew Bible.

I believe the word you meant to use was “there”, not “their”.

It appears you use the KJV when quoting the bible. So what is your opinion about the KJV regarding Job 2:5?

Job 2:5 KJV
But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

What is your opinion regarding the KJV’s use of the word “curse” or similar derivative?

Also, what is your opinion regarding every other translation that uses the word “curse” in this verse?

Job 2:5 ESV
But stretch out your hand and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse you to your face.”

Job 2:5 NKJV
But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

Job 2:5 NASB
However, reach out with Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face!”

Job 2:5 JPS (Jewish Publication Society translated directly from Hebrew)
But put forth Thy hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, surely he will blaspheme Thee to Thy face.'

And there are so many more translations that are not posted here which say the same thing. So what is your opinion of these translations of Job 2:5? Please share.

And how do you explain the provision that the word “lo” also means “surely” or “verily” in Hebrew? Did you see that? This was pointed out to you before.

Original Word: לֹא
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: lo'
Pronunciation: lo
Phonetic Spelling: (lo)
KJV: X before, + or else, ere, + except, ig(-norant), much, less, nay, neither, never, no((-ne), -r, (-thing)), (X as though,(can-), for) not (out of), of nought, otherwise, out of, + surely, + as truly as, + of a truth, + verily, for want, + whether, without

NKJV: But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
TLV: But now, stretch out Your hand and strike everything he has, and he will certainly curse You to Your face!”
BSB: But stretch out Your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse You to Your face.”

Also, once again, have you considered the context?

In the first test, satan claims if Job loses his possessions he will curse God to His face. Then, in the second test, satan claims if Job is stricken physically then he will surely curse God to His face.

The intensity of the suffering satan suggests is escalating, and so it follows that his words would also escalate. It might be said in this way:

If Job loses his things, he will curse You to Your face. Then, if Job is afflicted in his own physical body, he will definitely curse You to Your face. The way the words are written support this logic.

In your version, it appears it would be summarized this way. If Job loses his things, he will curse You to Your face. Then, if Job is afflicted in his own physical body, he will not bless you to Your face.

Weird.

And how do you “not bless” someone to their face ? That phrasing doesn’t even make sense. How do you “not” do something TO someone’s face? It’s illogical. It would make much more sense if satan simply said Job will not bless You. But that’s not what it says, does it?

So if the entire premise for your own individual particular exclusive stand-alone interpretation hinges on the way you (and you only) read this verse, I would consider rethinking that interpretation if I were you.

Hope this helps.

 

[tttallison]

Regarding your first two questions, I agree with the commentator John Gill, who wrote:

"To which may be added, that this creature was found among the Troglodytes who lived near the Red sea, and not far from Arabia, where Job dwelt, and so might be well known by him: and besides, of all creatures, it is the most lively emblem of the devil, which all the ancient Christian writers make leviathan to be;"

Regarding the king of Tyrus, I found two bible references to him:

Jer_27:3 And send them to the king of Edom, and to the king of Moab, and to the king of the Ammonites, and to the king of Tyrus, and to the king of Zidon, by the hand of the messengers which come to Jerusalem unto Zedekiah king of Judah;
Ezk_28:12 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty.

Neither of those verses say that he is Satan, or that he was present in the Garden of Eden. (Tyrus was another name for Tyre.)

I could not think of a bible reference to Pharaoh being a cedar in the garden of God.

I don't believe that trees are men, although the bible often pictures men as being like trees. For example:

(Psa 1:3) He shall be like a tree Planted by the rivers of water, That brings forth its fruit in its season, Whose leaf also shall not wither; And whatever he does shall prosper.

Eze 28:12-19 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee (Job 41:21 His/leviathan/ breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.), and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Notice some similarities, in red and above, between the Pharoah and Job.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.

Job 17:6 He hath made me also a byword of the people; and aforetime I was as a tabret.
Job 19:19 All my inward friends abhorred me: and they whom I loved are turned against me.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[tttallison]

Eze 28:12-19 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire. Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. By the multitude of thy merchandise they have filled the midst of thee with violence, and thou hast sinned: therefore I will cast thee as profane out of the mountain of God: and I will destroy thee, O covering cherub, from the midst of the stones of fire. Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Thou hast defiled thy sanctuaries by the multitude of thine iniquities, by the iniquity of thy traffick; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the midst of thee, it shall devour thee (Job 41:21 His/leviathan/ breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.), and I will bring thee to ashes upon the earth in the sight of all them that behold thee. All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.

Notice some similarities, in red and above, between the Pharoah and Job.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.

Job 17:6 He hath made me also a byword of the people; and aforetime I was as a tabret.
Job 19:19 All my inward friends abhorred me: and they whom I loved are turned against me.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Continued----

Eze 31:3 Son of man, speak unto Pharaoh king of Egypt, and to his multitude; Whom art thou like in thy greatness? Behold, the Assyrian was a cedar in Lebanon with fair branches, and with a shadowing shroud, and of an high stature; and his top was among the thick boughs.
Eze 31:9 I have made him fair by the multitude of his branches: so that all the trees of Eden, that were in the garden of God, envied him.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

First Test Job 1:8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Second Test Job 2:3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? And still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
The difference is the first test has already taken place, and Job has passed. Two other things should be noted here. 1. That God did the moving, or is responsible for Job’s tribulation. 2. That Satan’s cause was unjust, Job passed. It does not mention God’s cause for allowing the test.

Incorrect that "God did the moving, or is responsible for Job's tribulation".

Job 1:9-12

9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.


vs 11 - satan wanted God to put forth His Hand.

vs 12 - God refused and told satan "all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand". satan then left the presence of the LORD.

next we read about the devastation to Job's family and his holdings through the hand of the Sabeans, Chaldeans, and natural disasters ... all instigated by satan, not God.


Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

although satan urged God to put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath (Job 1:11), it was satan who instigated the killing of Job's children as well as the devastation to Job's workers, herds, and land.

First Test Job 1:9-10 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house and about all that he hath on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hand, and his substance is increased in the land.
Second Test Job 2:4 And Satan answered the Lord, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

The difference is that the first test has taken place. The new test does not involve possessions, but Job himself.

satan's goal was to disrupt Job's relationship with God.

In Job 2, satan claimed "skin for skin" ... which meant that Job was fine with the death of his children and his possessions so long as he was spared. This is nothing but the empty claim of the false accuser who continuously accuses those who believe God. satan is referred to as the "accuser of the brethren" according to Revelation 12:10 and satan accuses day and night.

First Test Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.
Second Test Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.
The difference here is that Satan gives his new reason why Job will fail.

satan attempted to persuade God to do something ... which God declined to do. God did not kill Job's children, his servants, his herds (Job 1:14-19) ... satan was behind all the death and destruction ... nor did God afflict Job with sore boils from the soles of his feet to the top of his head ... that was all satan's doing (Job 2:7).

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

in Job 1 and in Job 2, it was satan who wrought devastation in the life of Job.

First Test Job 1:20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, and said, Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.

Second Test Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes. (Notice that Job does not bless God. This was what Satan had said, that Job would "not bless" [lo-barak] God to his face.)

After the first test Job prostrated himself before God and worshipped God. Job mentioned his mother’s womb in a neutral manner, and then blessed the name of the Lord.

After the second test Job sat down and said nothing.

Job 2:8 is only the beginning of satan's attack on Job. The end came when God finally responded to Job (Job 38:1-42:12).

There is no meeting between God and Satan that is recorded after the second test. After the first test God said to Satan in regards to Job, “--There is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil, and still he holded fast his integrity,--” (Job 2:3)

After the second test we do not have God commending Job to Satan, why not?

Three times God said Job was "a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil".

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

it is obvious that satan was aware of Job based on satan's comments in Job 1:9-10 and Job 2:4-5. satan thought Job would cave. However, Job's mindset was such that he declared "though he slay me, yet I will trust him". If only Job had known that his suffering was not from God, but was from the adversary of God, he might not have uttered some of the things he uttered, which you believe to be sinful on his part.

And, again, I ask you tttallison ... how would you respond if your friends claimed you were being punished by God because you had sinned, yet you knew you had not sinned? What would you say to your friends?

Would you let the lies stand and be repeated without any clarification on your part?

Would you deny the lies (which would affirm truth)?

Would you confirm the lies (which would then be a lie on your part)?

.

 

[tttallison]

I believe the word you meant to use was “there”, not “their”.

It appears you use the KJV when quoting the bible. So what is your opinion about the KJV regarding Job 2:5?

Job 2:5 KJV
But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

What is your opinion regarding the KJV’s use of the word “curse” or similar derivative?

Also, what is your opinion regarding every other translation that uses the word “curse” in this verse?

Job 2:5 ESV
But stretch out your hand and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse you to your face.”

Job 2:5 NKJV
But stretch out Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”

Job 2:5 NASB
However, reach out with Your hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh; he will curse You to Your face!”

Job 2:5 JPS (Jewish Publication Society translated directly from Hebrew)
But put forth Thy hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, surely he will blaspheme Thee to Thy face.'

And there are so many more translations that are not posted here which say the same thing. So what is your opinion of these translations of Job 2:5? Please share.

And how do you explain the provision that the word “lo” also means “surely” or “verily” in Hebrew? Did you see that? This was pointed out to you before.

Original Word: לֹא
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: lo'
Pronunciation: lo
Phonetic Spelling: (lo)
KJV: X before, + or else, ere, + except, ig(-norant), much, less, nay, neither, never, no((-ne), -r, (-thing)), (X as though,(can-), for) not (out of), of nought, otherwise, out of, + surely, + as truly as, + of a truth, + verily, for want, + whether, without

NKJV: But now, stretch out Your hand and touch all that he has, and he will surely curse You to Your face!”
TLV: But now, stretch out Your hand and strike everything he has, and he will certainly curse You to Your face!”
BSB: But stretch out Your hand and strike his flesh and bones, and he will surely curse You to Your face.”

Also, once again, have you considered the context?

In the first test, satan claims if Job loses his possessions he will curse God to His face. Then, in the second test, satan claims if Job is stricken physically then he will surely curse God to His face.

The intensity of the suffering satan suggests is escalating, and so it follows that his words would also escalate. It might be said in this way:

If Job loses his things, he will curse You to Your face. Then, if Job is afflicted in his own physical body, he will definitely curse You to Your face. The way the words are written support this logic.

In your version, it appears it would be summarized this way. If Job loses his things, he will curse You to Your face. Then, if Job is afflicted in his own physical body, he will not bless you to Your face.

Weird.

And how do you “not bless” someone to their face ? That phrasing doesn’t even make sense. How do you “not” do something TO someone’s face? It’s illogical. It would make much more sense if satan simply said Job will not bless You. But that’s not what it says, does it?

So if the entire premise for your own individual particular exclusive stand-alone interpretation hinges on the way you (and you only) read this verse, I would consider rethinking that interpretation if I were you.

Hope this helps.

You can be my knew English teacher. I need all the help I can get.

You asked what my opinion of the KJB verse Job 2:5 using curse. That is fine. The opposite of bless is not bless, and it is understandable that someone used curse as the opposite of bless.

I would use "bless not" wherever the Hebrew bible used "barak lo". To bless not means to curse. During the first test Job blessed God to his face. During the second test Job did not bless God to his face.

We are left with the question: did Job bless God with his heart in the second test?

 

[tttallison]

Incorrect that "God did the moving, or is responsible for Job's tribulation".

Job 1:9-12

9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.


vs 11 - satan wanted God to put forth His Hand.

vs 12 - God refused and told satan "all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand". satan then left the presence of the LORD.

next we read about the devastation to Job's family and his holdings through the hand of the Sabeans, Chaldeans, and natural disasters ... all instigated by satan, not God.


Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

although satan urged God to put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath (Job 1:11), it was satan who instigated the killing of Job's children as well as the devastation to Job's workers, herds, and land.





satan's goal was to disrupt Job's relationship with God.

In Job 2, satan claimed "skin for skin" ... which meant that Job was fine with the death of his children and his possessions so long as he was spared. This is nothing but the empty claim of the false accuser who continuously accuses those who believe God. satan is referred to as the "accuser of the brethren" according to Revelation 12:10 and satan accuses day and night.





satan attempted to persuade God to do something ... which God declined to do. God did not kill Job's children, his servants, his herds (Job 1:14-19) ... satan was behind all the death and destruction ... nor did God afflict Job with sore boils from the soles of his feet to the top of his head ... that was all satan's doing (Job 2:7).

Job 1:12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

in Job 1 and in Job 2, it was satan who wrought devastation in the life of Job.





Job 2:8 is only the beginning of satan's attack on Job. The end came when God finally responded to Job (Job 38:1-42:12).





Three times God said Job was "a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil".

Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.

Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

it is obvious that satan was aware of Job based on satan's comments in Job 1:9-10 and Job 2:4-5. satan thought Job would cave. However, Job's mindset was such that he declared "though he slay me, yet I will trust him". If only Job had known that his suffering was not from God, but was from the adversary of God, he might not have uttered some of the things he uttered, which you believe to be sinful on his part.

And, again, I ask you tttallison ... how would you respond if your friends claimed you were being punished by God because you had sinned, yet you knew you had not sinned? What would you say to your friends?

Would you let the lies stand and be repeated without any clarification on your part?

Would you deny the lies (which would affirm truth)?

Would you confirm the lies (which would then be a lie on your part)?

.

What is truth: is it not perception?

David said, in his rashness-------

Psa 7:8The LORD shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.
Psa 26:1[[A Psalm of David.]] Judge me, O LORD; for I have walked in mine integrity: I have trusted also in the LORD; therefore I shall not slide.

David said this in his old age.

Psa 143:2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

You have put Job on a pedestal of which only Christ belongs.