The book of Job

[reneweddaybyday]

You have put Job on a pedestal of which only Christ belongs.

nope ... I just read what's written.

Job was a man of faith ... what Job went through was devastating.

Here's what God has to say about Job:

Ezekiel 14:12-14

12 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying,

13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:

14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

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[tttallison]

nope ... I just read what's written.

Job was a man of faith ... what Job went through was devastating.

Here's what God has to say about Job:

Ezekiel 14:12-14

12 The word of the LORD came again to me, saying,

13 Son of man, when the land sinneth against me by trespassing grievously, then will I stretch out mine hand upon it, and will break the staff of the bread thereof, and will send famine upon it, and will cut off man and beast from it:

14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.

.

You need to explain exactly what that means. Does that mean they were their own saviours? God asked Job if he thought his own right hand could save him.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You need to explain exactly what that means. Does that mean they were their own saviours?

no ... all three of them were men of faith.

Has God declared you righteous tttallison? If so, Who is your savior?

God asked Job if he thought his own right hand could save him.

and what was Job's answer?

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[tttallison]

no ... all three of them were men of faith.

Has God declared you righteous tttallison? If so, Who is your savior?



and what was Job's answer?

.

Job only became a man of faith because God didn't spare the rod. Job 9:34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Job 13:21 Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid.

Job did not answer God whether he thought his own right hand could save him. It was only after God introduced Job to the beast and the dragon: you know the dragon that is king over all the children of pride, and then asked Job if he was going to make a permanent contract with the serpent. It was only then that Job realized that God knew his heart, to which Job said that he abhorred himself, and repented in dust and ashes.

 

[christophernyc]

You can be my knew English teacher. I need all the help I can get.

You asked what my opinion of the KJB verse Job 2:5 using curse. That is fine. The opposite of bless is not bless, and it is understandable that someone used curse as the opposite of bless.

I would use "bless not" wherever the Hebrew bible used "barak lo". To bless not means to curse. During the first test Job blessed God to his face. During the second test Job did not bless God to his face.

We are left with the question: did Job bless God with his heart in the second test?

The opposite of bless is not "bless not". The opposite of bless is curse. You seem desperate to find fault where there is no fault.

It should not be ignored how Job is characterized by God, specifically as one who “fears God” and “shuns evil.” This is stated by the narrator of the story and also twice by God Himself. These two descriptors are fundamental to the definition of wisdom laid out in the fulcrum of the book.

Job 28:28
And unto man He [God] said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Job demonstrates the fact that he has this wisdom. He demonstrates it in the course of the two tests, which perfectly comports with God’s testimony about him.

In the first test Job demonstrates his fear of God when he says:

Job 1:21
Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

In the second test, Job is demonstrating that he shuns evil when he says:

Job 2:9-10
Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?

His wife is urging and tempting him to curse God AND HE REFUSES. He shuns this evil counsel and he avoids acting on it.

You once asked this question: who knows you better than your friends? Actually, who would know Job better than his friends? The answer: his wife. That’s who would know Job best. His friends traveled from afar to visit him, but his wife? She lived with him and knew how he lived on a day-to-day basis. Job’s wife would know him better than his friends visiting from afar.

That said, did you notice what Job’s wife asks Job during his second test? Let’s read it again. She asks, "Dost thou still retain thine integrity?” What does that tell us? It tells us that the person in the world who knows Job best recognizes that he is maintaining his integrity during the second test. Her remark here is proof of that fact.

So Job passes this second test because he does not curse God as satan falsely predicted.

 

[tttallison]

The opposite of bless is not "bless not". The opposite of bless is curse. You seem desperate to find fault where there is no fault.

It should not be ignored how Job is characterized by God, specifically as one who “fears God” and “shuns evil.” This is stated by the narrator of the story and also twice by God Himself. These two descriptors are fundamental to the definition of wisdom laid out in the fulcrum of the book.

Job 28:28
And unto man He [God] said, Behold, the fear of the Lord, that is wisdom; and to depart from evil is understanding.

Job demonstrates the fact that he has this wisdom. He demonstrates it in the course of the two tests, which perfectly comports with God’s testimony about him.

In the first test Job demonstrates his fear of God when he says:

Job 1:21
Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

In the second test, Job is demonstrating that he shuns evil when he says:

Job 2:9-10
Then said his wife unto him, Dost thou still retain thine integrity? curse God, and die. But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?

His wife is urging and tempting him to curse God AND HE REFUSES. He shuns this evil counsel and he avoids acting on it.

You once asked this question: who knows you better than your friends? Actually, who would know Job better than his friends? The answer: his wife. That’s who would know Job best. His friends traveled from afar to visit him, but his wife? She lived with him and knew how he lived on a day-to-day basis. Job’s wife would know him better than his friends visiting from afar.

That said, did you notice what Job’s wife asks Job during his second test? Let’s read it again. She asks, "Dost thou still retain thine integrity?” What does that tell us? It tells us that the person in the world who knows Job best recognizes that he is maintaining his integrity during the second test. Her remark here is proof of that fact.

So Job passes this second test because he does not curse God as satan falsely predicted.

The first verse of Lamentations 3:1 says, "I am the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath." You can apply this verse plus the next 17 verses of Lamentations chapter three to Job, as they express the woe of Job. This is a picture of the cup of woe that is first given to Jacob and then to Edom (Esau).

Lam 4:21-22 Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, that dwellest in the land of Uz; the cup also shall pass through unto thee: thou shalt be drunken, and shalt make thyself naked. The punishment of thine iniquity is accomplished, O daughter of Zion; he will no more carry thee away into captivity: he will visit thine iniquity, O daughter of Edom; he will discover thy sins.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?

Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Job, like Israel was perfect until iniquity was found in him. Job 34:29 When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only:

Job 34:23 For he will not lay upon man more than right; that he should enter into judgment with God.

Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.

Lam 3:36 To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not. Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?

 

[christophernyc]

The first verse of Lamentations 3:1 says, "I am the man that hath seen affliction by the rod of his wrath." You can apply this verse plus the next 17 verses of Lamentations chapter three to Job, as they express the woe of Job. This is a picture of the cup of woe that is first given to Jacob and then to Edom (Esau).

Lam 4:21-22 Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, that dwellest in the land of Uz; the cup also shall pass through unto thee: thou shalt be drunken, and shalt make thyself naked. The punishment of thine iniquity is accomplished, O daughter of Zion; he will no more carry thee away into captivity: he will visit thine iniquity, O daughter of Edom; he will discover thy sins.

Lam 3:38 Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?

Eze 3:20 Again, When a righteous man doth turn from his righteousness, and commit iniquity, and I lay a stumblingblock before him, he shall die: because thou hast not given him warning, he shall die in his sin, and his righteousness which he hath done shall not be remembered; but his blood will I require at thine hand.

Job, like Israel was perfect until iniquity was found in him. Job 34:29 When he giveth quietness, who then can make trouble? and when he hideth his face, who then can behold him? whether it be done against a nation, or against a man only:

Job 34:23 For he will not lay upon man more than right; that he should enter into judgment with God.

Lam 3:33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.

Lam 3:36 To subvert a man in his cause, the Lord approveth not. Who is he that saith, and it cometh to pass, when the Lord commandeth it not? Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good? Wherefore doth a living man complain, a man for the punishment of his sins?

Like I said, you seem desperate to find fault where there is no fault. Your response here is more of the same.

Yes, the Lamentations verses are strikingly similar. You’re right. But do you know what the difference is? The context.

Context.

We know why Judah suffers, don’t we? Jeremiah had been telling them repeatedly what their sins were and calling them to repentance. He warned them what would happen if they did not repent. So when they did not repent, they reaped the consequences that God foretold them through His prophet.

Is that Job’s story? Answer ———> No.

How do we know what Job’s story is and why he is suffering? We know by reading chapters 1 & 2. It’s written into the story. So there is no need to invent new ideas or fabricate details to force into the narrative.

Unlike Judah, Job is not suffering because of his sin. How do we know? We know because God says Job’s suffering came about “without cause”. This means Job, unlike Judah, is not suffering because of his sin.

It’s becoming increasingly shocking that you seem unable to accept that Job’s suffering is without cause, as God has testified in His own words.

To accuse Job of suffering because of his sin is to take the same position as his 3 friends. In the end, God rebukes them because they were wrong.

 

[tttallison]

Like I said, you seem desperate to find fault where there is no fault. Your response here is more of the same.

Yes, the Lamentations verses are strikingly similar. You’re right. But do you know what the difference is? The context.

Context.

We know why Judah suffers, don’t we? Jeremiah had been telling them repeatedly what their sins were and calling them to repentance. He warned them what would happen if they did not repent. So when they did not repent, they reaped the consequences that God foretold them through His prophet.

Is that Job’s story? Answer ———> No.

How do we know what Job’s story is and why he is suffering? We know by reading chapters 1 & 2. It’s written into the story. So there is no need to invent new ideas or fabricate details to force into the narrative.

Unlike Judah, Job is not suffering because of his sin. How do we know? We know because God says Job’s suffering came about “without cause”. This means Job, unlike Judah, is not suffering because of his sin.

It’s becoming increasingly shocking that you seem unable to accept that Job’s suffering is without cause, as God has testified in His own words.

To accuse Job of suffering because of his sin is to take the same position as his 3 friends. In the end, God rebukes them because they were wrong.

Job can exalt himself above. God. Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Job can declare God evil. Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

Job can reprove God. Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

And yet you believe all these sins Job committed were OK!

It appears that no one within Job's gates of the city liked Job, and I don't believe that you would have liked him either, if you had lived under his rule.

Job 29:8 The young men saw me, and hid themselves: and the aged arose, and stood up. If you don't want to be in someone's presence you can't like them very much.

Job 16:20 My friends scorn me: but mine eye poureth out tears unto God.

Job 19:15 They that dwell in mine house, and my maids, count me for a stranger: I am an alien in their sight.

Job 19:16 I called my servant, and he gave me no answer; I intreated him with my mouth.

Job 19:18 Yea, young children despised me; I arose, and they spake against me.

Job 19:19 All my inward friends abhorred me: and they whom I loved are turned against me.

Job 19:22 Why do ye persecute me as God, and are not satisfied with my flesh?

Job 30:10 They abhor me, they flee far from me, and spare not to spit in my face.

Job 30:12 Upon my right hand rise the youth; they push away my feet, and they raise up against me the ways of their destruction.

Job 30:13 They mar my path, they set forward my calamity, they have no helper.

Job 30:14 They came upon me as a wide breaking in of waters: in the desolation they rolled themselves upon me.

Job cried out for pity, but no one pitied Job. That is not normal. Maybe Job just wasn't that likable? Most self-righteous people are not likable.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Job only became a man of faith because God didn't spare the rod.

See Job 1:1, Job 1:8, Job 2:3 ... Job was a man of faith before satan ever touched his family, his servants, livestock, property and, lastly, Job himself ... and please note, it was satan who attacked Job ... not God.

Job 9:34 Let him take his rod away from me, and let not his fear terrify me: Job 13:21 Withdraw thine hand far from me: and let not thy dread make me afraid.

that Job believed it was God Who afflicted him is understandable because he was not privy to what has been revealed to us ... that satan was the one who afflicted Job:

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

Job did not answer God whether he thought his own right hand could save him.

Job answered God in chapter 42 when God was finished speaking to Job.

It was only after God introduced Job to the beast and the dragon: you know the dragon that is king over all the children of pride, and then asked Job if he was going to make a permanent contract with the serpent. It was only then that Job realized that God knew his heart, to which Job said that he abhorred himself, and repented in dust and ashes.

what you and I know about leviathan in the spiritual sense is more than what Job knew spiritually about leviathan, even after God spoke to Job.

And what Job knew about leviathan in the physical sense is more than what you or I know physically about leviathan.

At some point in the past, there was an aquatic creature in existence which was known as leviathan. Also in existence was a land animal known as behemoth (Job 40:15). I do not believe the creatures still exist in our day and time ... or, if they do, I haven't seen any current credible information relating to them.

.

 

[christophernyc]

Job can exalt himself above. God. Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

Job can declare God evil. Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

Job can reprove God. Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.

And yet you believe all these sins Job committed were OK!

It appears that no one within Job's gates of the city liked Job, and I don't believe that you would have liked him either, if you had lived under his rule.

Job 29:8 The young men saw me, and hid themselves: and the aged arose, and stood up. If you don't want to be in someone's presence you can't like them very much.

Job 16:20 My friends scorn me: but mine eye poureth out tears unto God.

Job 19:15 They that dwell in mine house, and my maids, count me for a stranger: I am an alien in their sight.

Job 19:16 I called my servant, and he gave me no answer; I intreated him with my mouth.

Job 19:18 Yea, young children despised me; I arose, and they spake against me.

Job 19:19 All my inward friends abhorred me: and they whom I loved are turned against me.

Job 19:22 Why do ye persecute me as God, and are not satisfied with my flesh?

Job 30:10 They abhor me, they flee far from me, and spare not to spit in my face.

Job 30:12 Upon my right hand rise the youth; they push away my feet, and they raise up against me the ways of their destruction.

Job 30:13 They mar my path, they set forward my calamity, they have no helper.

Job 30:14 They came upon me as a wide breaking in of waters: in the desolation they rolled themselves upon me.

Job cried out for pity, but no one pitied Job. That is not normal. Maybe Job just wasn't that likable? Most self-righteous people are not likable.

Do you, or do you not, accept the terms of the story as written in chapters 1 & 2? Do you, or do you not, accept God’s testimony about Job? Before launching into the rest of the narrative with what and how Job suffers, do you, or do you not, accept that Job’s suffering came about “without cause” as God has stated?

Yes or no?

 

[tttallison]

Do you, or do you not, accept the terms of the story as written in chapters 1 & 2? Do you, or do you not, accept God’s testimony about Job? Before launching into the rest of the narrative with what and how Job suffers, do you, or do you not, accept that Job’s suffering came about “without cause” as God has stated?

Yes or no?

I can't answer yes or no because your premise is false. God is talking about Satan's cause, and not God's cause. It was Satan that set the parameters. In the first test the parameters were if Job lost his wealth he would curse God. Job did not curse God, but blessed God. Satan's cause for having God move against Job was without cause. In the second test Satan moved the parameters. In the second test Satan said touch his health and he will (English translation-"curse you"/Hebrew-bless not you.)

After the second test God does not exonerate Job as God had in the first test. In chapters one and two we are given two methods of sinning. The first method was with the heart.

Job 1:5 And it was so, when the days of their feasting were gone about, that Job sent and sanctified them, and rose up early in the morning, and offered burnt offerings according to the number of them all: for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed God in their hearts. Thus did Job continually.

The second method was with the lips.

Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

Don't we have to ask ourselves whether Job sinned with his heart after the second test? Especially since Job blessed God the first time, but failed to bless God after the second test.

God's cause for allowing the two tests was to give Job an opportunity to repent. Job's heart reproached him in the end, and Job saw the light and repented. Very satisfying story.

Satan was perfect in the beginning, just like Job, until iniquity was found in him. Same thing for Israel, and the same thing for David.

Job cursed God's creation with his lips. Do you remember when Job did his cursing?

 

[christophernyc]

I can't answer yes or no because your premise is false. God is talking about Satan's cause, and not God's cause. It was Satan that set the parameters. In the first test the parameters were if Job lost his wealth he would curse God. Job did not curse God, but blessed God. Satan's cause for having God move against Job was without cause. In the second test Satan moved the parameters. In the second test Satan said touch his health and he will (English translation-"curse you"/Hebrew-bless not you.)

Thank you. Whether you realize it or not, you have answered the question.

No, you do not accept God’s testimony about Job.

God says Job’s suffering is without cause, meaning Job committed no sin to incur it. Yet you say there is a cause, and that Job is to blame for his suffering because of his sin.

God says that Job is blameless and upright, one who fears God and shuns evil. Yet you have attributed sin to Job and laid accusations against him.

One of the reasons I believe our interpretations differ so much is because the fundamental facts of the story are not the same. I can trace my interpretation back to the words that have been written in the text. However, when I try to trace your interpretation back, I am forced to rely on untethered inventions such as “God’s cause” vs. “satan’s cause” and suspend my disbelief that “upright and blameless” actually means “self-righteous and proud” and despite God always referring to Job as “My servant” Job is really somehow a lost soul, with no relationship to God.

I believe you believe in your conclusions, but you have evidently altered the entire premise of the story to get there.

Don't we have to ask ourselves whether Job sinned with his heart after the second test? Especially since Job blessed God the first time, but failed to bless God after the second test.

Not really, no.

As previously mentioned, Job is demonstrating exactly what God has testified about him. God says Job is one who “fears God and shuns evil.” In the first test, Job is showing his fear of God after he loses his possessions.

Job 1:21
And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

In the second test, Job is demonstrating that he shuns evil when his wife urges him to curse God. He utterly rejects this notion.

Job 2:10
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?

Both responses by Job align directly with God’s testimony about Job, that he is one who fears God and shuns evil. Both responses by Job comport and confirm with what has been written in the text.

 

[tttallison]

Thank you. Whether you realize it or not, you have answered the question.

No, you do not accept God’s testimony about Job.

God says Job’s suffering is without cause, meaning Job committed no sin to incur it. Yet you say there is a cause, and that Job is to blame for his suffering because of his sin.

God says that Job is blameless and upright, one who fears God and shuns evil. Yet you have attributed sin to Job and laid accusations against him.

One of the reasons I believe our interpretations differ so much is because the fundamental facts of the story are not the same. I can trace my interpretation back to the words that have been written in the text. However, when I try to trace your interpretation back, I am forced to rely on untethered inventions such as “God’s cause” vs. “satan’s cause” and suspend my disbelief that “upright and blameless” actually means “self-righteous and proud” and despite God always referring to Job as “My servant” Job is really somehow a lost soul, with no relationship to God.

I believe you believe in your conclusions, but you have evidently altered the entire premise of the story to get there.



Not really, no.

As previously mentioned, Job is demonstrating exactly what God has testified about him. God says Job is one who “fears God and shuns evil.” In the first test, Job is showing his fear of God after he loses his possessions.

Job 1:21
And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.

In the second test, Job is demonstrating that he shuns evil when his wife urges him to curse God. He utterly rejects this notion.

Job 2:10
But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil?

Both responses by Job align directly with God’s testimony about Job, that he is one who fears God and shuns evil. Both responses by Job comport and confirm with what has been written in the text.

Actually I do accept God's testimony, just not your distorted view of it. God said, Satan moved God against Job, and Satan's cause to have God move against Job was not justified. Why, because Job blessed God after losing everything. I accept that, but then that was only the first test.

Job blew it on the second test. Job no longer blessed God. In the first test God said Job had not sinned, but in the second test God states that Job did not sin with his lips. It is not an accident that God used this terminology. We are shown earlier in the text that there are two methods of sinning. One with the lips and one with the heart.

Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Notice the last clause, in red, in the above verse, for Job acknowledges it in the verse below.

Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

After the second test God does not state that it was without cause, Satan's, or God's.

 

[christophernyc]

God said, Satan moved God against Job, and Satan's cause to have God move against Job was not justified. Why, because Job blessed God after losing everything.

Yeah, did you notice the sequence of events? satan challenges God about Job, then Job loses his possessions, then Job reacts to his loss (1:21). That’s the order.

Then satan appears before God a second time, and God says:

Job 2:3
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

The movement against Job that God is referring to is in Job 1:11 before Job loses his possessions and thereby prior to Job responding to those losses. That’s the order. See? God characterizes the movement against Job which occurs before his suffering in chapter 1 as “without cause”, not after.

In your version of events you are saying God is characterizing Job’s suffering as “without cause” because of Job’s response in 1:21. That doesn’t make any sense. It’s illogical. Job’s response took place after he loses his possessions. You cannot cheat and rearrange the order of how things played out any way you want to suit your interpretation.

Job blew it on the second test. Job no longer blessed God. In the first test God said Job had not sinned, but in the second test God states that Job did not sin with his lips. It is not an accident that God used this terminology. We are shown earlier in the text that there are two methods of sinning. One with the lips and one with the heart.

God says Job is blameless and upright, one who fears God and shuns evil. After the first test, Job demonstrates his fear of God in 1:21. Then after the second test Job demonstrates how he shuns evil by refusing to curse God at the urging of his wife. Job’s reactions to both tests comport and confirm God’s testimony about Job. This is the text supporting the text.

Also notice that after both attacks on Job, it is written that he has “maintained his integrity”. Both times.

Isa 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

Yeah, once again: context. This verse from Isaiah is from a different context that you are simply cutting and pasting onto Job’s story. Unfortunately for your interpretation, this is not God’s testimony about Job and it contradicts how God has characterized Job.

 

[tttallison]

Yeah, did you notice the sequence of events? satan challenges God about Job, then Job loses his possessions, then Job reacts to his loss (1:21). That’s the order.

Then satan appears before God a second time, and God says:

Job 2:3
And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

The movement against Job that God is referring to is in Job 1:11 before Job loses his possessions and thereby prior to Job responding to those losses. That’s the order. See? God characterizes the movement against Job which occurs before his suffering in chapter 1 as “without cause”, not after.

In your version of events you are saying God is characterizing Job’s suffering as “without cause” because of Job’s response in 1:21. That doesn’t make any sense. It’s illogical. Job’s response took place after he loses his possessions. You cannot cheat and rearrange the order of how things played out any way you want to suit your interpretation.



God says Job is blameless and upright, one who fears God and shuns evil. After the first test, Job demonstrates his fear of God in 1:21. Then after the second test Job demonstrates how he shuns evil by refusing to curse God at the urging of his wife. Job’s reactions to both tests comport and confirm God’s testimony about Job. This is the text supporting the text.

Also notice that after both attacks on Job, it is written that he has “maintained his integrity”. Both times.



Yeah, once again: context. This verse from Isaiah is from a different context that you are simply cutting and pasting onto Job’s story. Unfortunately for your interpretation, this is not God’s testimony about Job and it contradicts how God has characterized Job.

Again, the cause we are talking about is Satan's cause, not God's cause for allowing the test. Satan's cause was to win Job's soul, God's cause was to save Job's soul. Your statement in the beginning of this reply is not very clear in regards to timing.

You speak of integrity and we should define it. The dictionary defines it as strict adherence to a moral code. The moral code here should be God's commandments. which are based on loving the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and your neighbor as yourself.

We both agree that Job kept his integrity after the first test, when he blessed God. But we don't agree on the second test, when Job did not bless God.

God never exonerated Job on integrity after the second test. You believe Job exonerated himself based on a question his wife asked, and Job's reply, which was to state that we receive evil at the hands of God.

Bildad said, Job 8:3 Doth God pervert judgment? or doth the Almighty pervert justice?
Elihu said, Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.
Job said, Job 19:6 Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net.
When Job said, "overthrown me", it was the same Hebrew word that was translated as pervert, in Bildad's statement, and Elihu's statement.
Job said, Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.
Job said, Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.
Job said, Job 9:24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he?
Job said, Job 3:1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day. (The Hebrew word spoken here is not bāraḵ, but qālal, which actually means curse.

When did Job lose his integrity?

It would seem as if you are saying biblical doctrine should not be applied to Job; unless it is found in the book of Job.

 

[christophernyc]

You didn't address how you rearranged the sequence of events in your version of the story. Why?

Again, the cause we are talking about is Satan's cause, not God's cause for allowing the test. Satan's cause was to win Job's soul, God's cause was to save Job's soul. Your statement in the beginning of this reply is not very clear in regards to timing.

"God's cause" vs. "satan's cause". Where are you getting this from? It's like some kind of clever invention or fancy footwork to suit a preconceived notion. No, actually, "without cause" is just "without cause". Period. That's it.

You speak of integrity and we should define it. The dictionary defines it as strict adherence to a moral code. The moral code here should be God's commandments. which are based on loving the Lord thy God with all your heart, mind, and soul, and your neighbor as yourself.

The story of Job spoke of integrity. It's written into the text. It's not my opinion or something I am inserting into the narrative. God says Job has kept his integrity, and Job's wife says he has kept his integrity. Both instances are confirmation that Job kept his integrity. Both times. Both tests. Again, my interpretation traces back to what is written.

You believe Job exonerated himself based on a question his wife asked, and Job's reply, which was to state that we receive evil at the hands of God.

You did not provide the full verse here. Job's wife urges him to curse God, which he adamantly refuses to do. In his actions, by refusing to curse God, he "shuns evil", which is a characteristic God pointed out about Job. That is how Job passes the second test. His refusal to curse God, which also coincides with satan's false prediction that Job will curse God if he suffers physically. Again, this is the text is supporting the text, comporting, confirming.

When did Job lose his integrity?

Yeah, he doesn't. You have accused him of that, for sure, but Job endures his trial, serves God's purpose by proving satan wrong, and is then more than fully restored by God in the end.

James 5:10,11
Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience. Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

According to apostle James, Job endures his trial and is patient in his affliction. Enduring in your faith while suffering is part of the main theme of what James writes in his letter to believers. James highlights Job as a clear example of this theme, identifying Job as a faithful follower of God who endures in his faith through his trial until the end.

However, contrary to James, in your account, Job is persevering and enduring in what?? His "rebellion"? His "self-righteousness"? His "lack of integrity"? If that were the case, I seriously doubt James would affirm Job and his endurance and patience, much less mention Job at all.

It would seem as if you are saying biblical doctrine should not be applied to Job; unless it is found in the book of Job.

Not really. Why would you think that?

What I would say is when the terms of the story are already provided for the reader, then I don't need to go cherry-picking verses from other contexts which may not apply to that story. A great example is one that you brought up already regarding Lamentations. We know why Judah was suffering because it's written into the story. Jeremiah had warned them of their sins, and when they refused to obey, they suffered the consequences.

In Judah's case I would not argue they were innocent in the midst of their suffering or that it was without cause. Why?? Because we are told in the text why they are suffering, and we are told the cause.

In Job's case, you can argue that Job was innocent in the midst of his suffering and that it was without cause. Why?? Because we are told in the text why he is suffering, and we are told it is without cause.

See?

I don't think it's difficult to understand.

Are you not able or willing to accept the story of Job and its terms as it's written?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Job said, Job 19:6 Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net.
When Job said, "overthrown me", it was the same Hebrew word that was translated as pervert, in Bildad's statement, and Elihu's statement.

reading Job 19:6 as a standalone verse leads to an incorrect assumption.

Job 19:1-6

1 Then Job answered and said,

2 How long will ye vex my soul, and break me in pieces with words?

3 These ten times have ye reproached me: ye are not ashamed that ye make yourselves strange to me.

4 And be it indeed that I have erred, mine error remaineth with myself.

5 If indeed ye will magnify yourselves against me, and plead against me my reproach:

6 Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net.

Job was responding to the claims his friends made (that Job was being punished by God for a sin he had committed and for which Job had not repented). In Job 18:21, Bildad inferred Job was wicked and did not know God.

vs 2 – in his replies to Job (Job 8:2, 18:2), Bildad asked Job "how long ...". Job finally responded to Bildad with "how long will ye vex my soul, and break me in pieces with words?"

vs 3– Job complained his friends reproached him and made themselves strangers now that he was no longer prosperous as he had been in the past ... folks like this are referred to as "fair weather friends".

vs 4 – Job told his friends "let's say I had sinned" (not admitting that he had sinned, but just for argument's sake) ... then he bears his error and they should not add to his troubles with their reproaches.

vs 5 – Job's friends magnified themselves in their reproach of Job, notwithstanding Job having professed his innocence in this situation.

vs 6 – If, as stated in vs 5, Job's friends were magnified in their false accusations against Job, then he was "overthrown" by God and caught in a net.

There was no sin committed by Job which resulted in his affliction ... you know it and I know it because we were told in the first chapters of Job that it was satan who attacked Job for no other reason than that God had told satan Job was "a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil".

Job and his friends did not know anything about satan and if his friends had been aware of satan's shenanigans, I'm sure Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, and Elihu would have comforted Job rather than falsely accuse Job of sin he had not committed.

.

 

[tttallison]

reading Job 19:6 as a standalone verse leads to an incorrect assumption.

Job 19:1-6

1 Then Job answered and said,

2 How long will ye vex my soul, and break me in pieces with words?

3 These ten times have ye reproached me: ye are not ashamed that ye make yourselves strange to me.

4 And be it indeed that I have erred, mine error remaineth with myself.

5 If indeed ye will magnify yourselves against me, and plead against me my reproach:

6 Know now that God hath overthrown me, and hath compassed me with his net.

Job was responding to the claims his friends made (that Job was being punished by God for a sin he had committed and for which Job had not repented). In Job 18:21, Bildad inferred Job was wicked and did not know God.

vs 2 – in his replies to Job (Job 8:2, 18:2), Bildad asked Job "how long ...". Job finally responded to Bildad with "how long will ye vex my soul, and break me in pieces with words?"

vs 3– Job complained his friends reproached him and made themselves strangers now that he was no longer prosperous as he had been in the past ... folks like this are referred to as "fair weather friends".

vs 4 – Job told his friends "let's say I had sinned" (not admitting that he had sinned, but just for argument's sake) ... then he bears his error and they should not add to his troubles with their reproaches.

vs 5 – Job's friends magnified themselves in their reproach of Job, notwithstanding Job having professed his innocence in this situation.

vs 6 – If, as stated in vs 5, Job's friends were magnified in their false accusations against Job, then he was "overthrown" by God and caught in a net.

There was no sin committed by Job which resulted in his affliction ... you know it and I know it because we were told in the first chapters of Job that it was satan who attacked Job for no other reason than that God had told satan Job was "a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil".

Job and his friends did not know anything about satan and if his friends had been aware of satan's shenanigans, I'm sure Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, and Elihu would have comforted Job rather than falsely accuse Job of sin he had not committed.

.

What do we really have here? We have a potsherd striving with three of his potsherd friends.

Job 40:2 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it. (In this verse we have God saying Job was striving with God, and reproving God. Now listen to what God says about someone who does that.)

Isa 45:9 Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? (This is the perfect picture of what is happening here. Job, called a potsherd by God, for striving with God, is striving with his three potsherd friends. Job, in his correct analysis, has stated that God has sent these three potsherds as witnesses against Job. How fitting is this? You strive with God and you have woe to pay, but wait there is more.)

Look at the second clause in Isaiah chapter forty five verse nine. "Shall the clay/Job say to God who fashioned him, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands." And then the following verse. Isa 45:10 "Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?" This is what Job was doing when he cursed his day.

Job 3:1-3 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day. And Job spake, and said, Let the day perish wherein I was born, and the night in which it was said, There is a man child conceived. Job 3:11 Why died I not from the womb? why did I not give up the ghost when I came out of the belly? (You can say poor Job and totally ignore the reason God stated for Job's woe, the reason being Job strove and reproved God.)

One other thing. You are blaming Satan for what happened to Job, while both Job and God said it was God doing the moving. Was God wrong?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

What do we really have here?

I explained that reading Job 19:6 as a standalone verse leads to an incorrect assumption ... then explained to you the verse in the context within which it was written. Instead of responding to what was written, you redirect to other issues.

Job, called a potsherd by God

where in the Book of Job did God call Job a "potsherd"?

You are blaming Satan for what happened to Job

who smote Job with sore boils from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head?

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

while both Job and God said it was God doing the moving. Was God wrong?

God lowered His hedge ...

"all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand" (Job 1:12) ... resulting in the loss of life of Job's children, servants, herds,

"he is in thine hand; but save his life" (Job 2:6) ...

satan moved against Job, killed his children, his servants, his herds, then smote Job with boils.

Job has an excuse for his understanding because he was not privy to the discussion between God and satan ... you do not have any excuse because God has made you aware of satan's deeds.

You can claim God was the One who did what God clearly states satan did ... but you would be wrong.

.

 

[tttallison]

I explained that reading Job 19:6 as a standalone verse leads to an incorrect assumption ... then explained to you the verse in the context within which it was written. Instead of responding to what was written, you redirect to other issues.





where in the Book of Job did God call Job a "potsherd"?





who smote Job with sore boils from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head?

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.





God lowered His hedge ...

"all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand" (Job 1:12) ... resulting in the loss of life of Job's children, servants, herds,

"he is in thine hand; but save his life" (Job 2:6) ...

satan moved against Job, killed his children, his servants, his herds, then smote Job with boils.

Job has an excuse for his understanding because he was not privy to the discussion between God and satan ... you do not have any excuse because God has made you aware of satan's deeds.

You can claim God was the One who did what God clearly states satan did ... but you would be wrong.

.

Your are choosing to ignore the omniscience of God. God is in control. God presented Job to Satan with the knowledge of the outcome of this action.

God put Job on a pedestal which lasted until the second test. After the second test God is completely silent. Have you intellectually investigated the two tests? Do you even acknowledge the two tests?

Have you wondered why the two tests are identical, word for word, except where there has been a change?

Have you wondered why God was completely silent on the outcome of the second test?

Have you wondered why God did not exonerate Job after the second test?

Have you wondered why Job cursed the creation of the creator?

Have you noticed that the Hebrew word Job uses for curse actually means curse, and is not the word Satan used which means bless?

Have you wondered why Job charged God foolishly when he said God would laugh at the trial of the innocent?

Have you wondered why Job said God covered the faces of the judges, indicating that God was unjust?

Have you wondered why the first thing God said to Job was that Job was without knowledge?

Have you wondered why God said Job contended with God, instructed God, and reproved God?

Have you wondered why God asked Job if he was condemning God so that he might be righteous?

Have you wondered why Job said he didn't know who God was?

Do you not realized that the bible had one author, and that each book embellishes the other?

etc, etc, etc.