Is cessation an observation or theology?

[Genez]

I don't have Campbell's commentary. @Genez if you find any factual errors in the following, let me know. I asked for a critique of Campbell's commentary from CoPilot.

​

And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, ​

so that the image of the beast might even speak and might ​

cause those who would not worship the image of the beast ​

to be slain. Revelation 13:15​

It is staring you right in the face!
CoPilot is a forerunner to the Antichrist.

 

[presidente]

​

And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, ​

so that the image of the beast might even speak and might ​

cause those who would not worship the image of the beast ​

to be slain. Revelation 13:15​

It is staring you right in the face!
CoPilot is a forerunner to the Antichrist.

One year bar codes are supposed to be the mark of the beast, then chips used to find dogs. Now it is supposed to be CoPilot. Didn't you use AI in a response on the previous page?

Let's stick to the topic. Usage of the verb forms in the New Testament debunks your claims about them (which you might have gotten from that commentary. I haven't read it.)

 

[Gideon300]

Hello! Just a couple of Qs perhaps for friendly discussion

Are there Apostles today? If so, who are they? If not, would that mean Apostolic gifts have ceased?

If the gifts are in existence today in the same measure as the New testament times, why did the Canon close with the book of Revelation 1900 years ago? Wouldn't there be fresh revelation?

God Bless All

Today apostles are called missionaries. "Missionary is the Latin translation of the word the English Bible translates as apostle. The only reason the so-called apostolic gifts have ceased is doubt and unbelief. Derek Prince exercised the gifts of healing and deliverance routinely. There are many videos of meetings where he taught and ministered those gifts. I had the joy of attending one of his meetings. He commanded deliverance and prayed and some were healed.

Another true apostle was Watchman Nee. He founded hundreds of churches in China. He was himself healed of tuberculosis, which was almost always fatal in those days.

I've spoken to missionaries on leave from New Guinea. One was a staunch Baptist. He told me that he never believed that demons were real. That changed the first village he came to.

God knows the propensity of people to misunderstand His word and to be deceived. Apart from the gospels, much of the New Testament was directed at correcting false beliefs. The problem with the written word is that it is so generalised. The benefit of gifts is that God can reveal specifics in a situation. My wife has the gift of discernment of spirits. That's a real blessing when counseling someone with deep rooted problems. It may be that the problem is demonic, not the flesh. We've seen people transformed as the bondage they've suffered for years is broken.

The Word of God is Lord Jesus. He is the "Logos." The Bible is the "Logos" in writing. It is not the full revelation of God as there would not be enough books to contain. However, it is enough.

"Revelation" is God's specific word for His people. The Greek word is "Rhema". It was used in the context of a sculptor unveiling a masterpiece that was ready for public viewing.

A Greek man described it like this: "Logos" can be likened to an armoury. Every weapon you could want is there. Swords, shields, spears, bow and arrow and so on. When a battle was coming, each soldier would be given the appropriate weapons and armour. Not every battle and not every soldier was the same. The load out was the "Rhema". So it is God's word for a specific time and purpose.

It is vital that believers get to know God's word. If we do not know what is available to us, we don't know what weapon to choose. There is no point quoting that God will supply our every need if the person has a problem with unforgiveness. The former is the truth, but its irrelevant to the situation.​

 

[Gideon300]

​

And it was allowed to give breath to the image of the beast, ​

so that the image of the beast might even speak and might ​

cause those who would not worship the image of the beast ​

to be slain. Revelation 13:15​

It is staring you right in the face!
CoPilot is a forerunner to the Antichrist.

The apostle John was talking about antichrists about 2,000 years ago.

 

[Lamar]

I have no idea what you're babbling about and what any of this has to do with Pentecostals. All that I'm saying is that God's still actively at work through his Holy Spirit, He's still sovereign over world events, and there're still unprecedented supernatural events beyond any existing scientific explanations. The only thing matters is if you have an observant eye to see them and the wisdom to discern the times.

Did you even read the OP?

This whole discussion is about the claims of Pentecostals!

Also, no one is debating the following:

"God's still actively at work through his Holy Spirit"

"He's still sovereign over world events".

Again, the issue is Pentecostal claims of raising the dead, giving sight to the blind, speaking in unknown languages, understanding unknown tongues. IOW, physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit such as what was occurring during the New Testament.

Also, I cannot speak for Trust and Obey but I have a open mind and a open heart to the physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit. But simple claims of their existence is not how the Bible uses them to promote the Gospel of Jesus Christ

I suggest you either read or reread the OP.

 

[Genez]

You didn't ask it about his Greek scholarship and treatment of the Greek text. It also doesn't contradict what the AI said in my post.

Of course, you will have what appears to be a defense.

Yet... The fact of the matter remains?

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, ​

but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ​

​

On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, ​

and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ ​

And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers ​

of lawlessness.’​

Matthew 7:21-23

They thought that they had it all wrapped up.
I would be very careful when an invisible power is overtly working in you...

Case closed.

 

[Genez]

One year bar codes are supposed to be the mark of the beast, then chips used to find dogs. Now it is supposed to be CoPilot. Didn't you use AI in a response on the previous page?

They all are!

For it is preparatory time.

Now is the time when the Antichrist must line up what is needed to battle it out for only seven years time.
God allows for it, so believers can see it, and make themselves ready for the Rapture by growing in grace and knowledge continuously.

 

[Fillan]

No there's not, apostle is technically defined as the original disciples who'd personally met and followed Lord Jesus, after that, all were disciples. Cessationalism's fatal error is its denial of divine intervention through miracles, signs, wonders and other supernatural events.

Hello Lovette, thanks for your reply. Good to meet you. I would agree that apostles were a special calling, the Epistles that the Apostles wrote were considered to be the very word of God, on the same level as God himself speaking, they are part of the closed Canon of scripture that has not been added to in 1900 years. And the Apostles performed many miracles, healing at will all who came (Acts 5:15-16, Acts 28:9). Would it seem that the Apostolic Gift has ceased, if there is nothing like that today?

I would also agree that God still performs supernatural events today, when the need arises. God Bless You

 

[presidente]

but I have a open mind and a open heart to the physical supernatural manifestations of the Holy Spirit.

I will resist the urge to tie ha ha ha or LOL to this post.

But what you type here is not consistent with your other posts in this thread.

 

[Mem]

The passage, "but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away" follows Paul's statement, "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part," and those follow the statement of prophecies and tongues ceasing and knowledge diminishing (1Cor 13:8-9)." All of this leads into with "Love never fails" within the entire context of the subject of love.
Paul declares himself that "we" (who, at the least, are his contemporaries), but isn't this he is speaking of that which we are reading when we read the letters? Part and partial knowledge and prophecy just as he claimed?

And if it is bookended within the context of love, how relevant to the message would the subject matter be if it isn't primarily the exact context of the revelation?

If Paul is talking about perfect love, in regard to the completeness of body of Christ, then I think we can clearly see that has not come yet.

 

[Genez]

The passage, "but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away" follows Paul's statement, "For we know in part, and we prophesy in part," and those follow the statement of prophecies and tongues ceasing and knowledge diminishing (1Cor 13:8-9)."

We need to get the timeline as to when Paul wrote that.

I Corinthians circa 50-55 AD

At the time of I Corinthians?
Most of the NT had not yet been written!
That is why... They only could know in part!
That is why they need the gifts to fill in the blanks.

An over all timeline?"

Epistles of Paul

I_Thessalonians circa 51-54 AD - 52 AD from Corinth

II Thessalonians circa 51-54 AD - 53 AD from Corinth

Galatians circa 58-61 AD - 55 AD from Ephesus

I Corinthians circa 50-55 AD - 55 AD from Ephesus

II Corinthians circa 57-60 AD - 57 AD from Philippi

Romans circa 58-61 AD - 58 AD from Corinth
just before heading for Jerusalem

Ephesians circa 62-64 AD - 62 AD from Rome
- Paul (Prison Epistle)
Updated Ephesians

Colossians circa 62-64 AD - 62 AD from Rome
- Paul (Prison Epistle)

Philemon circa 62-64 AD - 62 AD from Rome
- Paul (Prison Epistle)

Philippians circa 62-64 AD - 63 AD from Rome
- Paul (Prison Epistle)

I Timothy circa 65-66 AD - 65 AD from Macedonia

Titus circa 65-66 AD - 66 AD from Macedonia

II Timothy circa 67 AD - 67 AD from Rome


Acts of the Apostles

Acts circa 58-65 AD - by Luke

Epistles of Peter

I_Peter circa 60-65 AD - by Peter

II Peter circa 66 AD - by Peter

Epistles of John

I John circa 90-95 AD - by John

II John circa 90-95 AD - by John

III_John circa 90-95 AD - by John

Revelation circa 90-96 AD - by John

Other Epistles

James circa 45 AD - by James
(maybe the half-brother of Jesus)

Jude circa 66-80 AD - by Jude
(maybe also a half-brother of Jesus)

Revelation circa 90-96 AD
That was when the perfect (completed) arrived!

 

[Mem]

We need to get the timeline as to when Paul wrote that.

I Corinthians circa 50-55 AD

At the time of I Corinthians?
Most of the NT had not yet been written!
That is why... They only could know in part!
That is why they need the gifts to fill in the blanks.

An over all timeline?"

Epistles of Paul

I_Thessalonians circa 51-54 AD - 52 AD from Corinth

II Thessalonians circa 51-54 AD - 53 AD from Corinth

Galatians circa 58-61 AD - 55 AD from Ephesus

I Corinthians circa 50-55 AD - 55 AD from Ephesus

II Corinthians circa 57-60 AD - 57 AD from Philippi

Romans circa 58-61 AD - 58 AD from Corinth
just before heading for Jerusalem

Ephesians circa 62-64 AD - 62 AD from Rome
- Paul (Prison Epistle)
Updated Ephesians

Colossians circa 62-64 AD - 62 AD from Rome
- Paul (Prison Epistle)

Philemon circa 62-64 AD - 62 AD from Rome
- Paul (Prison Epistle)

Philippians circa 62-64 AD - 63 AD from Rome
- Paul (Prison Epistle)

I Timothy circa 65-66 AD - 65 AD from Macedonia

Titus circa 65-66 AD - 66 AD from Macedonia

II Timothy circa 67 AD - 67 AD from Rome


Acts of the Apostles

Acts circa 58-65 AD - by Luke

Epistles of Peter

I_Peter circa 60-65 AD - by Peter

II Peter circa 66 AD - by Peter

Epistles of John

I John circa 90-95 AD - by John

II John circa 90-95 AD - by John

III_John circa 90-95 AD - by John

Revelation circa 90-96 AD - by John

Other Epistles

James circa 45 AD - by James
(maybe the half-brother of Jesus)

Jude circa 66-80 AD - by Jude
(maybe also a half-brother of Jesus)

Revelation circa 90-96 AD
That was when the perfect (completed) arrived!

So then, when do we start noticing perfect love. That would be a nice miracle.

 

[Genez]

So then, when do we start noticing perfect love. That would be a nice miracle.

You must notice it in yourself first.
When you can begin to not take the offense of others in a personal way.

When you can be relaxed to love them in a non-personal way.

Phileo is personal love.
Agape is impersonal love.

 

[Mem]

You must notice it in yourself first.
When you can begin to not take the offense of others in a personal way.

Anyone that is one with me would do nothing to hurt me, because it would be to them as hurting themself, and vice versa.

 

[Genez]

Anyone that is one with me would do nothing to hurt me, because it would be to them as hurting themself, and vice versa.

Paul who was filled with agape love, never took insults "personally."

And... His love for Timothy and Titus was phileo love.

 

[legion]

"Because the scripture shows that God empowered people to do miracles and gave spiritual gifts in the past, that proves that He does not do so today?"

This is a false dichotomy, im assuming you know this.

 

[Mem]

Paul who was filled with agape love, never took insults "personally."

And... His love for Timothy and Titus was phileo love.

1 Cor 12:26 leads up to 1Cor 13. I don't expect any part of my body should insult any other part of my body. So, if indeed the insult does come, then it only shows that 'member' has no part in me. That is, unless perfect love is yet to come. Peter himself did not answer Jesus' with agape when He inquired, "Do you agape me?" he answered with Philéo love, and Jesus met him there. After all, He Is agape love.

 

[legion]

Anyone that is one with me would do nothing to hurt me, because it would be to them as hurting themself, and vice versa.

This isn't true... some times you have to let some one feel the pain before you can help them. Ever tried to help a drug addict, or see one come down from heroine.... the term is "Tough Love"

 

[Mem]

This isn't true... some times you have to let some one feel the pain before you can help them. Ever tried to help a drug addict, or see one come down from heroine.... the term is "Tough Love"

That's what I keep hearing. However, I'm not convince it was exactly the 'tough love' that was the instrument of deliverance as much as a turn to Christ' agape love that actually does heal them.

 

[presidente]

Of course, you will have what appears to be a defense.

Yet... The fact of the matter remains?

“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, ​

but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. ​

​

On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, ​

and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ ​

And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers ​

of lawlessness.’​

Matthew 7:21-23

They thought that they had it all wrapped up.
I would be very careful when an invisible power is overtly working in you...

Case closed.

And Christ also said, "Behold, I send unto you prophets, wise men, and scribes" and Ephesians 4 tells us that He ascended and gave gifts to men, which included prophets among other roles. I Corinthians 14 gives commandments of the Lord for church meetings, including 'let the prophets speak two or three and let the other judge' and 'for ye may all prophesy' and '... when you come together, every one of you has a psalm, has a doctrine, has a tongue, has an interpretation. Let all things be done unto edifying."

And proper Biblical doctrine includes what I just mentioned and the verses you referred to as well. Prophesying and casting out demons doesn't guarantee that those who do so are righteous or have eternal salvation. But Christ, the Prophet like unto Moses, the great miracle Worker, the One who cast out so many demons was not condemning prophesying, casting out demons, or working miracles in these verses.

The verse you quote is not a justification for your cessationism or the misinterpretation of verb forms in I Corinthians 13.