Is Salvation instantaneous and permanent?

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Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭19‬ ‭

The Greek word for depart, (in context of let… depart), aphistémi, suggests a permanent separation - the fruit/evidrnce of what God has already done/established. Not something we are capable of. It is the finished work of Jesus Christ.

The Lord knoweth them that are his. We don’t always. We can recognize fruit in the lives of other believers, but who are we to question and scrutinize what God is doing in the lives of another? Let God be true, and every man a liar - Rom 3:4.
 
How is a "one on one" relation between the Creator and the Created happen?

Because Jesus the acceptable one , has a one on one intimate relationship with him and we’re “ in Christ “

“For
as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. ( that’s the source of any personal relationship we have with god being in christ ) There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-

“ In Christ “

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4‬ ‭KJV‬‬

In Christ


buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2:12-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?….. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:36,

“And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭22:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38


remission of sins is part of having a relationship with God he can’t have sin around him it is always destroyed when sinners approach and then with it see the ot .

so we need remission to approach him. It’s why John preceded Jesus to prepare them to receive the lord having thier sins remitted
 
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How is a "one on one" relation between the Creator and the Created happen?
(Super)naturally. Starts by receiving the gift of salvation and the only acceptable sacrifice for the forgiveness of sin (past, present, and future), the shed blood of Christ. From that moment on, it is a lifetime of Him showing Himself faithful in the details of daily life. He cannot and does not deny Himself.
 
no man is born again without baptism!
False. 1 Peter 1:23 - having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever.
mk 16:16 he who believes and is baptized shall be saved
Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary for salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief and not on a lack of baptism. *NOWHERE does the Bible say, "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism was absolutely required for salvation, then we would expect Jesus to mention it in the following verses. (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26) Yet what is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions NINE different times in each of these complete statements *BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism *Hermeneutics. If he who believes shall be saved, then he who believes and is baptized shall be saved as well.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Jn 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
In regard to the word "water" in John 3:5, there are those who would argue that the natural sense of the passage parallels water with being born out of a mother’s womb and with flesh based on the answer of Nicodemus to Jesus. Simply stated in that case, two births are necessary. The first is a physical, literal, "flesh" birth accompanied by amniotic "water" and the second is Spirit.

We also see in scripture that Jesus mentions "living water" in John 4:10, 14; 7:37-39 and in John 7:38-39, we read - "He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water. But this He spoke concerning the Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of living water and spiritual cleansing.

Now if "water" is defined as baptism, then we could just as justifiably say, "Out of his heart will flow rivers of living baptism" in John 7:38. If this sounds ridiculous, it is no more so than the idea that water baptism is the source or the means of becoming born again. So, to automatically read "baptism" into John 3:5 simply because it mentions "water" is unwarranted.

Furthermore, we also see in scripture that "water" is used in the Bible as an emblem of the word of God, and in such uses it is associated with cleansing or washing. (John 15:3; Ephesians 5:26) When we are born again, the Holy Spirit begets new life, and we are said to become "partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) The new birth is brought to pass through "incorruptible seed, by the word of God, which lives and abides forever" (I Peter 1:23) and the Holy Spirit accomplishes the washing of regeneration. (Titus 3:5)
titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

the laver of regeneration
In regard to Titus 3:5, the washing of regeneration is not accomplished by water baptism. The word "washing" in the Strong's Greek Concordance with Vine's Number 3067 - (Loutron) "a bath, a laver" is used *metaphorically of the Word of God, as the instrument of spiritual cleansing* (Ephesians 5:26; and Titus 3:5), of the "washing of regeneration." So, washing refers to spiritual washing or purification of the soul, accomplished by the word of God through the Holy Spirit at the moment of salvation.
 
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Seems to me this question has been around for 600 yrs. I am interested in how we the answer now.
The Lord Jesus, believed that salvation is a one time deal. There are many examples in the Bible, where the Lord Jesus saved people and declared them to be saved immedietley.

In Luke 23:43 ("Truly I say to you today, you will be with me in paradise") this is a profound demonstration of salvation by grace alone through faith alone. It highlights the immediate, personal, and secure nature of paradise upon death, showcasing that salvation is a gift from Christ, not earned or maintained by human merit.

The transformation from mocking (earlier) to believing (Luke 23:40-42) shows the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit opening the thief's eyes, illustrating that faith itself is a gift.
Jesus’ words ("Assuredly I say") provide a firm guarantee, offering assurance to believers that salvation is fully and finally secured by Christ's work, not held in uncertainty.

Hebrews 10:10, 14 – “And by that will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all... For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified”.

Romans 8:1 – “There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”.
John 10:28-29 – “I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand”.

Ephesians 2:8-9 – “For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast”.

Romans 8:30 – “And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified”.

Titus 3:5 – “He saved us, not because of works done by us in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit”

No "Re-Salvation": Since Christ's sacrifice was "once for all," there is no need or possibility for salvation to be repeated. While justification is a one-time event (I am saved), sanctification is a progressive process (I am being saved) that follows from the new life given in justification.
Believers have secure assurance, not based on their own faithfulness, but on the unwavering promise of God.
 
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How is a "one on one" relation between the Creator and the Created happen?
Whenever the Creator manifests Himself to the creation and the creation accepts the Creators invitation. If this act was sincere then the creation will do their best to initiate continual contact and communication with the Creator.
 
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This was John the Baptist speaking!
I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” Mark 1:8​

Grace and peace .........
the initial grace of justification is by baptism!

all inclusive even though its not mentioned

the christian sacrament of baptismal regeneration water & the spirit, grace, life, fire!

whats the fire represent?

thks
 
I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

….“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word. For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter, Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. Then prayed they him to tarry certain days.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭10:44, 46-48‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him. And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭8:36-39‬ ‭KJV‬‬
Amen! and even Paul acts 22:16 was baptized not faith alone!

thks
 
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You could not be more wrong. The thief on the cross was not baptised. Some Australians were born again in an Indonesian prison. They were refused the opportunity to be baptised. Those men witnessed to other prisoners and began a fellowship. Even the prison guards were impressed. The men exhausted their appeals and were executed by firing squad. They were singing Amazing Grace as they were shot.

I knew nothing about baptism before I was born again. I was at sea on a warship. Even if I wanted to, baptism was not an option. Captain's duties do not include stopping the ship so I could be baptised.

Acts 10:43-45, 46-48
"All the prophets testify about Him that everyone who believes in Him receives forgiveness of sins through His name.” While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all who heard his message. All the circumcised believers who had accompanied Peter were astounded that the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out even on the Gentiles.…"

"Then Peter said, “Can anyone withhold the water to baptise these people? They have received the Holy Spirit just as we have!” So he ordered that they be baptised in the name of Jesus Christ.​

Water baptism followed salvation. Getting wet saves no one. The Holy Spirit does not fall on those who are spiritually dead. he will not dwell in an unclean vessel.
born again only by water and the Spirit! Jn 3:5

the thief not christian nor was the new covenant in effect. heb 9:16-17

baptism is required unless it is truly not possible, but of becomes possible it cannot be refused!

thks

eph 4:5 one baptism

Baptism implies water:

ez 36:25
Acts 8:36-38
acts 10:47
Jn 3:5
acts 22:16
1 cor 6:11
titus 3:5
heb 10:22

administered by the apostolic church:

mt 28:19
2 pet 1:11
2 cor 8:19

the only baptism is water baptism, the initial sacrament of the christian faith. water baptism includes, the supernatural gifts of faith, hope, & charity, sanctifying grace, and the life of the Spirit!

why all this water and washing?

((water))

John the baptist did not prepare the way by preaching faith alone!

Ex 36:25:27
Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

Jn 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
(we must be born into the family of God)

((washing))

acts 22:16
And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.
(saul becomes Paul a christian in baptism)


titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Hebrews 10:22
Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.

Revelation 1:5
And from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, and the first begotten of the dead, and the prince of the kings of the earth. Unto him that loved us, and washed us from our sins in his own blood,

Baptism is the grace of justification:

Ex 36:25:27
baptism, new heart capable of love, and the Spirit!

Jn 3:5 baptism water & the Spirit!

Rom 5:5 Holy Spirit received in baptism cast His love abroad in our hearts so we can fulfill God's will!

1 cor 12:13 Baptism, filled with the Spirit!


Ez36:25-27

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jn 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

titus 3:5
Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Rom 5:5
And hope maketh not ashamed; because the love of God is shed abroad in our hearts by the Holy Ghost which is given unto us.

1 cor 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

“My Witnesses” (Acts 1:8)

The sacrament of Baptism is required for salvation!

St. Ambrose
St. Augustine
St. Justin Martyr
Tertullian
Pope St. Leo I
Origen
St. Cyril of Jerusalem
Fulgentius of Ruspe
Hippolytus
St. Irenaeus

Matt 16:18-19 binding on all Christians!

“Without the Sacrament of Baptism, no one is ever justified, If anyone says that Baptism is optional, that is, not necessary for salvation: let him be anathema." Council of Trent

Dogma: Divine Faith!


170. The Sacraments of the New Covenant are necessary for the salvation of mankind.
174. Baptism is a true Sacrament instituted by Jesus Christ.
175. The materia remota of the Sacrament of Baptism is true and natural water.
176. Baptism confers the grace of justification.
177. Baptism effects the remission of all punishments of sin, both the eternal and the temporal.
179. Baptism by water (Baptismus fluminis) is, since the promulgation of the Gospel, necessary
for all men without exception, for salvation. Mk 16:16


1 Corinthians 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.

Jude 1:1 Jude, the servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, to them that are sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ, and called: ref: ez 36:25


col 2:11-13

11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.

13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;

The Holy sacrament of Baptism is the basis of the whole Christian life, the initiation to life in the Spirit!
(2 cor 1:22 eph 1:13 2 pet 1:11)

Through Baptism we are freed from all past sin and reborn as sons of God; (acts 22:16) we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church!
(1 cor 12:13)

"Baptism is the sacrament of regeneration through water in the word." (Jn 3:5 titus 3:5)

Baptismal regeneration is the grace of justification then we abide in Christ (Jn 15:4) and practice the deeds of righteousness on the narrow road (mt 7:14) and endure to the end! (mt 10:22)


The Early Church Fathers were unanimous in affirming the necessity of baptism:

St. Justin Martyr (2nd century): “As many as are persuaded and believe that what we teach and say is true... are brought by us where there is water, and are regenerated in the same manner in which we were ourselves regenerated.”

St. Augustine: “No one becomes a member of Christ except by baptism.”
 
While we are wallowing in sin, it seems some sin cannot be forgiven. The sin of Adam and Eve have never been forgiven and we all are doomed to hell if we don't find salvation babies included. That is some serious sin.
all sin can be forgiven in this life!

Jn 20:23

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them...

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Precious Blood of Jesus, save us!

thks
 
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the initial grace of justification is by baptism!

all inclusive even though its not mentioned

the christian sacrament of baptismal regeneration water & the spirit, grace, life, fire!

whats the fire represent?

thks
Where did you hop off to?
Come back here.

Deal with this.

John the Baptist said the following!

"I baptize you with water, but he will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.” Mark 1:8

There is to be only one baptism in the Church age!
You keep pushing on us TWO!

One Lord, one faith, one baptism, One God and Father of all, who is above all,
and through all, and in you all.
Ephesians 4:5-6

Beware of religious tradition that acts as an anti-truth!
 
Amen! we must be born again into the spiritual and supernatural family of God by baptism!

water & the Spirit! Jn 3:5

thks
It makes you feel so good after you stop banging your head against the wall?

water & the Spirit! Jn 3:5

Water = human birth. Mother breaks water!

Spirit = spiritual birth. The Spirit begets our human spirit.

The Holy Spirit gives birth to our human spirit, resulting in spiritual life, while our physical life comes from human parents.
This concept is expressed in the Bible, particularly in John 3:6, which states, "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives
birth to spirit."
 
While we are wallowing in sin, it seems some sin cannot be forgiven. The sin of Adam and Eve have never been forgiven and we all are doomed to hell if we don't find salvation babies included. That is some serious sin.
all sin can be forgiven in this life!

Jn 20:23

Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them...

Interesting...


….“Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit,
he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.”
John‬ ‭3:5‬ ‭KJV‬‬

When your Mom went into labor to birth you? There was water!

Physical birth involves the mother breaking water.

Breaking water? = First birth.

The ancients watched birth taking place, unlike today where the mother is often taken first to a hospital where the birth is not seen.
unfortunately the verse says: quote

"water and the Spirit"

Jn 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

not born of water born again of the spirit alone or faith alone!

and many more
ex 36:25-27
Mk 16:16
mt 28:19
acts 2:38-39
acts 8:36-38
acts 22:16
1 cor 12:13
1 pet 3:20-21

thks
 
It makes you feel so good after you stop banging your head against the wall?

water & the Spirit! Jn 3:5

Water = human birth. Mother breaks water!

Spirit = spiritual birth. The Spirit begets our human spirit.

The Holy Spirit gives birth to our human spirit, resulting in spiritual life, while our physical life comes from human parents.
This concept is expressed in the Bible, particularly in John 3:6, which states, "Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives
birth to spirit."
So the eleven disciples went to Galilee to the mountain Jesus had designated. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Is your point Jesus told is disciple to go into the world an impregnate women so they can "baptise" their children via birth? As a result of the first Gospel sermon, Peter did NOT say only believe because you were baptised at birth. If that was the message of the Holy Spirit, that is what he would have said under your dogma. What the Holy Spirit speaking through Peter and the other Apostles said you MUST repent and be baptised "in water" for the forgiveness of your sins.

When the Ethiopian eunuch was taught the gospel of Jesus, his immediate request was to be baptised (which by your definition of being born of water, he already had been.) Philip said to him, "If you believe you can be baptised." Thus born again via baptismal water.

In Romans 6:1-11, Paul presents baptism as a, if not the, definitive, spiritual, and existential union with Christ’s death and resurrection, initiating a new life that renders the believer dead to sin and alive to God. It is portrayed as a profound, transformative reality, not merely a symbolic gesture. Union with Christ (vv. 3-4): Baptism is described as being "baptized into Christ Jesus" and "baptized into his death". This indicates a mystical, actual union where the believer shares in the reality of Christ's death and resurrection. Death to Sin and New Life: By being buried with Christ in baptism, the old self is "crucified" or "dead" to sin. Just as Christ was raised, the baptized person is empowered to walk in "newness of life". Eschatological Reality: This new life is not merely future but an present experience of a future reality—believers are already living in the resurrection power.Ethical Application: Because of this union, Paul argues that Christians must count themselves dead to sin and no longer let it reign, using baptism as the foundation for Christian holiness. If water baptism is from birth, then none of these people needed water baptism.

That fat monk Luter, poisoned the well on doing "anything" even praying for salvation. Massive numbers of people who do not even know who he was spout his theology as God's gospel. Salvation is when you claim it is in your mind. Any act in real life associated with your Christianity invalidates your Christian conversion which is forever and only a mind game. Obedience to God is a sign you do not understand Luter's plan of salvation which you so eloquently conveyed. Obedience is works. Prayer is works essentially church attendance is works.
 
Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭19‬ ‭

The Greek word for depart, (in context of let… depart), aphistémi, suggests a permanent separation - the fruit/evidrnce of what God has already done/established. Not something we are capable of. It is the finished work of Jesus Christ.

The Lord knoweth them that are his. We don’t always. We can recognize fruit in the lives of other believers, but who are we to question and scrutinize what God is doing in the lives of another? Let God be true, and every man a liar - Rom 3:4.


Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Seek ye the LORD while he may be found, call ye upon him while he is near: let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭55:3, 6-7‬ ‭KJV‬‬




If it’s not something we can do why does god always call for and instruct man to repent and live , lest they perish and be destroyed ?


“I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.”
‭‭Luke‬ ‭13:3‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“and saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭1:15‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭3:19‬ ‭

“Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:37-38,

Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
‭‭2 Timothy‬ ‭2‬:‭19‬ ‭

The Greek word for depart, (in context of let… depart), aphistémi, suggests a permanent separation - the fruit/evidrnce of what God has already done/established. Not something we are capable of. It is the finished work of Jesus Christ.

The Lord knoweth them that are his. We don’t always. We can recognize fruit in the lives of other believers, but who are we to question and scrutinize what God is doing in the lives of another? Let God be true, and every man a liar - Rom 3:4.
Amen! and even Paul acts 22:16 was baptized not faith alone!

thks
True saving includes the action is the thing .

“Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? ( complete )

And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, ( see Abraham acted right after God had already called him righteous for believing what he said to him ) and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.

Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.”
‭‭James‬ ‭2:22-24, 26‬ ‭KJV‬‬

We can say “ we’re saved by faith not works “ bit faith will always act upon Gods word because they believe him

If a person believed this … What would they do ?

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If I hear Jesus saying this why wouldn’t I believe it ? And if I did believe what he’s saying wouldn’t I act upon it in faith believing it’s true ?

aid I heard this and believed what Peter is saying …. Wouldn’t I respond with the deed ?

“Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,

and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

And with many other words did he testify and exhort, saying, Save yourselves from this untoward generation. Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:38-41‬ ‭KJV‬‬

See it took them accepting what Peter was saying both the instruction “ what shall we do Peter ?…. “Repent and be baptized in Jesus name for remission of sins and you’ll receive the Holy Ghost . For the promise is to you and all gods will call ( unknown exhortation regarding baptism ) and then those who received what he said got baptized and we’re added to the church


see it’s the hearing and belief first and then the action matters but if there’s no hearing and believing the word the action wouldn’t make any difference . Our actions need to come from faith ( hearing the word and believing ) that will always lead to the action of belief is true and of the right word ( the word of Christ in the gospel as well as his apostles afterwards )

surely we need to act on our belief but moves us to action is to hear what he said and trust him believing it’s true and he’s correct about the things of God and salvation . We’re saved by grace through faith ……but without the actions faith is dead and an empty voice bearing no fruit ehos end is to be burned
 
So the eleven disciples went to Galilee to the mountain Jesus had designated. 17 When they saw him, they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 Then Jesus came up and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And remember, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Is your point Jesus told is disciple to go into the world an impregnate women so they can "baptise" their children via birth? As a result of the first Gospel sermon, Peter did NOT say only believe because you were baptised at birth. If that was the message of the Holy Spirit, that is what he would have said under your dogma. What the Holy Spirit speaking through Peter and the other Apostles said you MUST repent and be baptised "in water" for the forgiveness of your sins.

When the Ethiopian eunuch was taught the gospel of Jesus, his immediate request was to be baptised (which by your definition of being born of water, he already had been.) Philip said to him, "If you believe you can be baptised." Thus born again via baptismal water.

In Romans 6:1-11, Paul presents baptism as a, if not the, definitive, spiritual, and existential union with Christ’s death and resurrection, initiating a new life that renders the believer dead to sin and alive to God. It is portrayed as a profound, transformative reality, not merely a symbolic gesture. Union with Christ (vv. 3-4): Baptism is described as being "baptized into Christ Jesus" and "baptized into his death". This indicates a mystical, actual union where the believer shares in the reality of Christ's death and resurrection. Death to Sin and New Life: By being buried with Christ in baptism, the old self is "crucified" or "dead" to sin. Just as Christ was raised, the baptized person is empowered to walk in "newness of life". Eschatological Reality: This new life is not merely future but an present experience of a future reality—believers are already living in the resurrection power.Ethical Application: Because of this union, Paul argues that Christians must count themselves dead to sin and no longer let it reign, using baptism as the foundation for Christian holiness. If water baptism is from birth, then none of these people needed water baptism.

That fat monk Luter, poisoned the well on doing "anything" even praying for salvation. Massive numbers of people who do not even know who he was spout his theology as God's gospel. Salvation is when you claim it is in your mind. Any act in real life associated with your Christianity invalidates your Christian conversion which is forever and only a mind game. Obedience to God is a sign you do not understand Luter's plan of salvation which you so eloquently conveyed. Obedience is works. Prayer is works essentially church attendance is works.
Not to mention Jesus says “ unless you’re born of water and spirit you can’t enter the kingdom …… Paul says flesh and blood can’t inherit the kingdom of God …….

Yet ……. When the gospel begins ….. baptism for repentance and remission of sins in water by John who was sent by God to do that very thing ….this place will go anywhere to avoid sinple doctrine teaching people what to actually do because so many have the idea “ we don’t need to do anything God said we need to do we’re already saved anyways “
 
Amen! and even Paul acts 22:16 was baptized not faith alone!

thks
What’s really neat about Paul is how very much he taught about baptism for remission of sins !!

“Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.

knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. For he that is dead ( died with Jesus in baptism ) is freed from sin. Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.(
notice how many people explain this isn’t possible )

( don’t do this ) Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin:



( do this instead ) but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭6:3-4, 6-7, 11-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬


baptism is such deep and rich doctrine that hold a lot of power to remit sins dominion through the death burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ but mostly it’s hard to even talk about baptism even if you say “ look what the Bible says look what Paul’s saying look what Jesus said look what Peter said ……..

here you mostly get people explaining contrary and opposite things that conflict with what those men of God taught and did and taught the chrich to do


today the flood of “ wonderful amazing grace alone books “ has blinded a lot of people to sinply reading and accepting what the Bible says about things