The book of Job

[ZNP]

I like your outline although I don't agree with most of it.

What I like best is your outline of Elihu as a spiritual man exhibiting truth. What I like least is your presentation of Job as a type of Christ.

Job is more a type of Edom. Job's name means hated. God said Jacob have I loved but Esau have I hated. What could be more biblical typical of good and evil than the two twin brothers,

Esau received a blessing that is repeated in the book of Job.

Gen 27:39 And Isaac his father answered and said unto him, Behold, thy dwelling shall be the fatness of the earth, and of the dew of heaven from above;

Job 29:19 My root was spread out by the waters, and the dew lay all night upon my branch.

The first verse in the book of Job tells us where Job is from, and it is the land of Uz. The bible also tells us where Edom is from, and it is the land of Uz. What is even more amazing is when we read the book of Lamentations, in the third chapter we find eighteen consecutive verses of the lamentation of Jacob that runs parallel with the lamentation of Job. And then we are told that the daughter of Edom is going to receive the same cup of woe that Jacob received.

Lam 4:21 Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Edom, that dwellest in the land of Uz; the cup also shall pass through unto thee: thou shalt be drunken, and shalt make thyself naked.

Lam 4:22 The punishment of thine iniquity is accomplished, O daughter of Zion; he will no more carry thee away into captivity: he will visit thine iniquity, O daughter of Edom; he will discover thy sins.

Job is more a type of Esau that a type of Christ. Job exalted himself above God and Jesus is God.

The spirit said, Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Elihu said, Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's?
God said, Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?

It is difficult to say that Job is a type of Christ, rather I would say the book is a type and shadow of Jesus Christ as our propitiation. That propitiation is not simply to make us sin free, rather it is to give us the ministry of reconciliation. In that sense it is a picture of Adam and all his children who were born into sin, becoming the second Adam and all of his children who were born again.

 

[tttallison]

It is difficult to say that Job is a type of Christ, rather I would say the book is a type and shadow of Jesus Christ as our propitiation. That propitiation is not simply to make us sin free, rather it is to give us the ministry of reconciliation. In that sense it is a picture of Adam and all his children who were born into sin, becoming the second Adam and all of his children who were born again.

The difference is Job suffered for his own sins, while Jesus suffered for our sins.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The difference is Job suffered for his own sins, while Jesus suffered for our sins.

what sin did Job commit before satan stole, killed, destroyed Job's children and holdings? ... or before satan smote Job with sore boils from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head?

God tells us three times that Job was "perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil" (Job 1:1; Job 1:8; Job 2:3). God tells us there was "no cause" in Job to move against him.

that is the whole point ... there was no sin in Adam or Eve before satan beguiled Eve. There was no sin in the Lord Jesus Christ when the devil tempted Him; no sin in the Lord Jesus Christ when satan incited the people at the time of the crucifixion.

you keep focussing on something that is not in the text in the Book of Job and you miss the whole point.

God has an adversary who will stop at nothing to destroy whatever God holds dear to Himself.

The adversary cannot do anything to God directly so he goes after God's creation. God is especially mindful of man ... so the adversary goes after man.

Job's friends believed the same as you ... even though Job told them he had not sinned. And Job held firm to his faith even though he thought he was dying (Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him – Job 13:15).

When Job said "I will maintain mine own ways before him", this was not self-justification or self-righteousness as some have claimed. Job clearly stated "yet will I trust Him (God)". This was standing firm in faith ... standing and withstanding in the face of what Job was going through. Job stood firm and steadfast in faith in what he knew from God ... just as we stand firm and steadfast in faith in what we know from God. That is not self-righteousness ... that is God holding true to His Word when the believer trusts His Word.

and just an fyi ... the word "Job" means "persecuted". And Job was definitely persecuted ... not by God, but by satan ... and Job stood and withstood firm in faith.


James 5:10-11

10 Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.

11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

.

 

[ZNP]

The difference is Job suffered for his own sins, while Jesus suffered for our sins.

the difference is that the word of God is a two edged sword. David is a type of Christ, and he was also a man who sinned and came short of the glory of God.

 

[tttallison]

what sin did Job commit before satan stole, killed, destroyed Job's children and holdings? ... or before satan smote Job with sore boils from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head?

.

Could you give me a definition of the meaning of sin?

 

[tttallison]

the difference is that the word of God is a two edged sword. David is a type of Christ, and he was also a man who sinned and came short of the glory of God.

David is a type of Job.

Comparison of David and Job


Similarity​

Psa 38:2 For thine arrows stick fast in me, and thy hand presseth me sore.

Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

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Psa 38:3 There is no soundness in my flesh because of thine anger; neither is there any rest in my bones because of my sin.

Job 30:17 My bones are pierced in me in the night season: and my sinews take no rest.

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Psa 38:6 I am troubled; I am bowed down greatly; I go mourning all the day long.

Job 23:15 Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. Job 30:28 I went mourning without the sun: I stood up, and I cried in the congregation.

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Psa 38:11 My lovers and my friends stand aloof from my sore; and my kinsmen stand afar off.

Job 19:19All my inward friends abhorred me: and they whom I loved are turned against me.

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Diversity​

Psa 38:21 Forsake me not, O LORD: O my God, be not far from me.

Job 10:20 Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little, Job 7:19 How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?
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Psa 38:18 For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin.
Psa 38:5 My wounds stink and are corrupt because of my foolishness.

Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

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[ZNP]

David is a type of Job.

Comparison of David and Job


Similarity​

Psa 38:2 For thine arrows stick fast in me, and thy hand presseth me sore.

Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Psa 38:3 There is no soundness in my flesh because of thine anger; neither is there any rest in my bones because of my sin.

Job 30:17 My bones are pierced in me in the night season: and my sinews take no rest.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Psa 38:6 I am troubled; I am bowed down greatly; I go mourning all the day long.

Job 23:15 Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. Job 30:28 I went mourning without the sun: I stood up, and I cried in the congregation.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Psa 38:11 My lovers and my friends stand aloof from my sore; and my kinsmen stand afar off.

Job 19:19All my inward friends abhorred me: and they whom I loved are turned against me.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Diversity​

Psa 38:21 Forsake me not, O LORD: O my God, be not far from me.

Job 10:20 Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little, Job 7:19 How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?
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Psa 38:18 For I will declare mine iniquity; I will be sorry for my sin.
Psa 38:5 My wounds stink and are corrupt because of my foolishness.

Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

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The New Testament says that Jesus is the Son of David, it says He has the throne of David, it says that Psalm 16 was written by David not of himself but of Jesus, and then Jesus points out that He is the greater David because David calls Him Lord even though He is descended from David.

 

[tttallison]

The New Testament says that Jesus is the Son of David, it says He has the throne of David, it says that Psalm 16 was written by David not of himself but of Jesus, and then Jesus points out that He is the greater David because David calls Him Lord even though He is descended from David.

No disagreement about David.

What did you think of the similarities and diversities between Job and David?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday said:

what sin did Job commit before satan stole, killed, destroyed Job's children and holdings? ... or before satan smote Job with sore boils from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head?​

Could you give me a definition of the meaning of sin?

you're the one who made the claim ...

tttallison said:​

The difference is Job suffered for his own sins, while Jesus suffered for our sins.​

please just answer the question.

Please provide chapter and verse wherein God tells us the sin Job committed before satan stole, killed, destroyed Job's children and holdings ... or before satan smote Job with sore boils from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head.

Thanks.

.

 

[christophernyc]

agree Job suffered without cause.

I do not believe "satan moved God against Job".

Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

the words "although thou movedst me" are translated from the Hebrew word sûṯ which means to incite, to urge, to allure, to entice, to instigate.

While satan urged God to afflict Job ... God did not do so in Job 1 or in Job 2.

satan was the one who moved against Job ...

in Job 1:11, satan told God to "put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath". God refused to do so, and told satan "all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand" (Job 1:12).

in Job 2, God told satan "he is in thine hand; but save his life" (Job 2:6) and in Job 2:7 we see that it was satan who "smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown".

and I understand concept of God "allowing" this or that but that is not the same as God doing what He tells us satan does.

.

Yes, I think you and I agree on the basics of this story, and I think we could have a healthy discussion about any differences or nuances each of us may have on a particular point. Would be happy to have that dialogue!

One of the challenges I see at present on this thread, however, is the erraticism of certain other opinions, striking out like wild lightning and maneuvering like ungrounded electricity.

 

[ZNP]

No disagreement about David.

What did you think of the similarities and diversities between Job and David?

direct correlation between the suffering each endured.

 

[christophernyc]

Have you read my statement where I explained that there was Satan's cause and there was God's cause. I have never seen where you addressed this point. If you had addressed this point you would not, or should not, be accusing me of rearranging the order of events.

Yes. I did see your statements, and yes, I did address them. Yes.

Did you read my responses? Did you address them?

In Post #451 you wrote:

451 God is talking about Satan's cause, and not God's cause.

In Post #452 I responded by characterizing this as an "untethered invention."

In Post #453 you wrote:

God said, Satan moved God against Job, and Satan's cause to have God move against Job was not justified.

And in Post #455 you wrote:

Again, the cause we are talking about is Satan's cause, not God's cause for allowing the test. Satan's cause was to win Job's soul, God's cause was to save Job's soul.

Then in Post #456 I stated, "God's cause" vs. "satan's cause". Where are you getting this from? It's like some kind of clever invention or fancy footwork to suit a preconceived notion. No, actually, "without cause" is just "without cause". Period. That's it."

Then again in Post #469, I stated, "Are you aware of the apparent contradictions in your positions regarding the foundation of Job's story? Perhaps you are very aware of these contradictions, and perhaps that is the reason for espousing this notion of "God's cause" vs. "satan's cause". Is that it? If so, I'll ask again, where are you getting this idea from? What are you basing this secret, hidden knowledge of "God's cause" vs. "satan's cause"? It's like some kind of fancy footwork so that you can have things both ways."

So when you say I did not address this point, is it because you did not read what I wrote? Is that what happened? I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and choosing to believe that you are not trying to be dishonest.

But the question remains: where are you getting this idea from? Have you answered that question?

Where did you get the idea of "God's cause" vs. "satan's cause"? Where does that notion exist anywhere in the text?

Do you have any answer? Can you answer the question? Or are you avoiding it?

 

[tttallison]

reneweddaybyday said:

what sin did Job commit before satan stole, killed, destroyed Job's children and holdings? ... or before satan smote Job with sore boils from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head?​

you're the one who made the claim ...

tttallison said:​

The difference is Job suffered for his own sins, while Jesus suffered for our sins.​

please just answer the question.

Please provide chapter and verse wherein God tells us the sin Job committed before satan stole, killed, destroyed Job's children and holdings ... or before satan smote Job with sore boils from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head.

Thanks.

.

God doesn't tell us when Job sinned, but God does tell us Job sinned. I would think it was right after the second test, since God has nothing good to say about Job after the second test, until Job repents in the final chapter.

 

[tttallison]

direct correlation between the suffering each endured.

Thank you for your honesty.

What do you think about the diversity between David and Job? Where David asks God not to leave him, but stay close to him, and where Job tells God to leave him alone and depart from him. And then we see the confession of David for his sins, while Job declares his innocence.

 

[tttallison]

Yes. I did see your statements, and yes, I did address them. Yes.

Did you read my responses? Did you address them?

In Post #451 you wrote:


In Post #452 I responded by characterizing this as an "untethered invention."

In Post #453 you wrote:


And in Post #455 you wrote:


Then in Post #456 I stated, "God's cause" vs. "satan's cause". Where are you getting this from? It's like some kind of clever invention or fancy footwork to suit a preconceived notion. No, actually, "without cause" is just "without cause". Period. That's it."

Then again in Post #469, I stated, "Are you aware of the apparent contradictions in your positions regarding the foundation of Job's story? Perhaps you are very aware of these contradictions, and perhaps that is the reason for espousing this notion of "God's cause" vs. "satan's cause". Is that it? If so, I'll ask again, where are you getting this idea from? What are you basing this secret, hidden knowledge of "God's cause" vs. "satan's cause"? It's like some kind of fancy footwork so that you can have things both ways."

So when you say I did not address this point, is it because you did not read what I wrote? Is that what happened? I am giving you the benefit of the doubt and choosing to believe that you are not trying to be dishonest.

But the question remains: where are you getting this idea from? Have you answered that question?

Where did you get the idea of "God's cause" vs. "satan's cause"? Where does that notion exist anywhere in the text?

Do you have any answer? Can you answer the question? Or are you avoiding it?

Since when is it an invention for two persons to have different reasons for the same action? Satan set the parameters when he said Job would curse God, first, for the removal of God's hedge, and second, for touching of Job's body. It is only for the first test that God said Satan's cause was unjust. When Job fails God has no reason to respond to Satan. God had not stated what God"s reason was for allowing the test, but we can assume that it was to save Job's soul.

 

[ZNP]

Thank you for your honesty.

What do you think about the diversity between David and Job? Where David asks God not to leave him, but stay close to him, and where Job tells God to leave him alone and depart from him. And then we see the confession of David for his sins, while Job declares his innocence.

I think you can find the same correlation with everyone who has ever had a ministry.

 

[tttallison]

I think you can find the same correlation with everyone who has ever had a ministry.

Don't you think the heart of the one who tells God to depart from him is dark? Do you think this ever applied to David, even when his son died?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

God doesn't tell us when Job sinned, but God does tell us Job sinned. I would think it was right after the second test, since God has nothing good to say about Job after the second test, until Job repents in the final chapter.

since you agree that there was no sin on the part of Job before satan let loose on Job, do you agree that sin was not the cause for satan's attack? ... do you agree that satan's attack upon Job was without cause?

what verse do you rely on that "God does tell us Job sinned"?

Thanks.

.

 

[ZNP]

Don't you think the heart of the one who tells God to depart from him is dark? Do you think this ever applied to David, even when his son died?

Everyone who has ever moved out in faith has had that experience.

 

[tttallison]

since you agree that there was no sin on the part of Job before satan let loose on Job, do you agree that sin was not the cause for satan's attack? ... do you agree that satan's attack upon Job was without cause?

what verse do you rely on that "God does tell us Job sinned"?

Thanks.

.

You state that I agree that there was no sin on the part of Job before the dialogue started, but it is not a simple answer, and this is why I asked you for your definition of sin. If your definition of sin is disobedience to God my answer would be no, because Job was without knowledge, and his fear of God was taught by the precept of men, as Job had stated. If you believe breaking any of the ten commandments is sin, then my answer would have to be yes. Job sinned when his pride led him to exalt himself above God, and that didn't just start after the testing.

I believe Job's lost state was the reason God unleashed Satan. You can't have a personal relationship with someone when you don't know who. or where they are, or how to be just with them. Job said he was without hope, and told God to go away.

Satan's reason for the attack was without cause in the first test, but not without cause in the second test.

You want to know what verse I rely on that God tells us Job sinned? Job 35:2 Thinkest thou this to be right, that thou saidst, My righteousness is more than God's? There are many others.