Revelation 19- A major Key to understanding Revelations

[LTL]

There is absolutely ZERO persons that are believers, "going through the trib"

It gets worse.
Rev 20 underscores the martyrs that are the foolish virgins left behind after the pretrib rapture....AND HOW THEY DIE, AND WHEN THEY DIE.

P1,
What you have said above is a great summary of the pre-trib doctrine.
Pre-trib doctrine:
1) Believers do not go through the tribulation but are raptured beforehand.
2) Those left behind are individuals coming to Christ during the tribulation.

So let's equate this pre-trib doctrine to the early church.
1) The saints left Jerusalem per the diaspora
2) Titus destroyed Jerusalem

Notice that the saints did not leave the earth but were taken to safe places.
This pattern of God moving his people to a safe place is called an exodus and is found not only in Rev. 12:6 but also Rev. 12:14.

12:6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
12:14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

As you know, the exodus where Moses took his people from Egypt is the classic example. However, to show that the above verses are an exodus, we are given the name Moses, who is the hero and champion of the Savior in Rev. 15:3.

15:3And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

And I realize that you can not see the reference to the exodus in the name of Moses, because you are blind. But imagine if you will, that the latter-day Moses leads his people on an exodus. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

Such is the case for some saints in Rev. 12:6, and for others Rev. 12:14. They do not leave the earth.

And you suppose that you are better than these. The weight of your false pre-trib doctrine will come crushing down around your very souls. But is does not mean that your salvation is at risk. Only if your testimony is shaken and you take the mark of the beast. Of which many who fell into Lucifer's trap.

 

[ChristRoseFromTheDead]

Do pre-tribbers seriously think they are going to be taken off the earth if Jesus prayed for them not to be?

These things Jesus spoke, and lifted up his eyes unto the heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son that also your son should glorify you." John 17:1​

​

"I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you guard them from the evil." John 17:15​

 

[LTL]

Do pre-tribbers seriously think they are going to be taken off the earth if Jesus prayed for them not to be?

These things Jesus spoke, and lifted up his eyes unto the heaven, and said, "Father, the hour has come. Glorify your son that also your son should glorify you." John 17:1​

​

"I do not request that you take them out of the world, but that you guard them from the evil." John 17:15​

Brilliant.
Thank you, CRD

Belief is a very hard thing to overcome in the light of truth.
Jesus had that problem in dealing with the Pharisees.
Even Nicodemus, a seeker of truth, had difficulty in grasping the "born again doctrine" that is so clearly understood today.

And I remember the question regarding the "pre, mid, and post," tribulation raptures. Like, we each got to decide for ourselves which one is right. That question has been answered. And anyone believing that a pre-tribulation rapture from the earth is correct in the light of truth is living a pipe dream. And what is that truth?

1) Rev. 12:6 is an exodus
2) Rev. 12:14 is a harvest
3) And it is common sense that the saints must be taken from the earth before the wrath of God at the end of the seven years.

And these pre-trib guys have developed several weird concepts to justify the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine. Similar to the Pharisees justifying the crazy things they came up with. And both of these groups have done their best to hijack the Savior's doctrine into something that it is not.

There is no pre-tribulation rapture. Wow! These guys have bowls on their heads with aluminium foil.
Brethren, come back to us in the light of truth. Wash away Lucifer's trickery in the blood of Jesus Christ to live through the tribulation. Do not be afraid of that piece of trash, but confront your fears and strive to join with Jesus Christ at the post-tribulation rapture.

 

[Psalm1]

P1,
What you have said above is a great summary of the pre-trib doctrine.
Pre-trib doctrine:
1) Believers do not go through the tribulation but are raptured beforehand.
2) Those left behind are individuals coming to Christ during the tribulation.

So let's equate this pre-trib doctrine to the early church.
1) The saints left Jerusalem per the diaspora
2) Titus destroyed Jerusalem

Notice that the saints did not leave the earth but were taken to safe places.
This pattern of God moving his people to a safe place is called an exodus and is found not only in Rev. 12:6 but also Rev. 12:14.

12:6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
12:14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.

As you know, the exodus where Moses took his people from Egypt is the classic example. However, to show that the above verses are an exodus, we are given the name Moses, who is the hero and champion of the Savior in Rev. 15:3.

15:3And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, Lord God Almighty; just and true are thy ways, thou King of saints.

And I realize that you can not see the reference to the exodus in the name of Moses, because you are blind. But imagine if you will, that the latter-day Moses leads his people on an exodus. Wouldn't that be wonderful?

Such is the case for some saints in Rev. 12:6, and for others Rev. 12:14. They do not leave the earth.

And you suppose that you are better than these. The weight of your false pre-trib doctrine will come crushing down around your very souls. But is does not mean that your salvation is at risk. Only if your testimony is shaken and you take the mark of the beast. Of which many who fell into Lucifer's trap.

QUOTE
"....because you are blind..."

I show you 5 or 6 places where no saint or born again believer makes it through the trib.
You get schooled on verses you omit, or probably never knew they were there.
You answer none of them.
Instead you go to "talking point generalities", and call me names.

Really? You are already out of gas?

QUOTE
"And you suppose that you are better than these. The weight of your false pre-trib doctrine will come crushing down around your very souls"

I already heavily detailed the weight coming on your head as you and your non believing colleagues face the AC.
You really want the trib?
You want to "get through it" alive?
I just showed you the verses....but of course you are blind and could not respond at all.


You can not reconcile the bible verses I post.
In no way are you able to honestly debate.
Get in front of a mirror and repeat your lame accusations to your own bankrupt beliefs.

The bible blows your deal away decisively.
That is why you deflect into generalities and your workbook of twisted verses.

 

[aaravnayar5]

You have the wedding, you have the judgment, you have the end of the beast and the false prophet, you have the dragon locked up for a thousand years, you have the first resurrection, and you have the end of all living humanity that was not invited to the wedding. The only ones left on the earth are the dead who were not written in the book of life.

What think you?

That’s an interesting perspective. Revelation’s timeline can be difficult to piece together, but I’ve always understood the thousand years as a period where the earth is left desolate after Christ’s return, with the righteous resurrected and with Him, while the final judgment of the rest comes later. It really shows how serious the “book of life” language is throughout Scripture.

 

[Psalm1]

Brilliant.
Thank you, CRD

Belief is a very hard thing to overcome in the light of truth.
Jesus had that problem in dealing with the Pharisees.
Even Nicodemus, a seeker of truth, had difficulty in grasping the "born again doctrine" that is so clearly understood today.

And I remember the question regarding the "pre, mid, and post," tribulation raptures. Like, we each got to decide for ourselves which one is right. That question has been answered. And anyone believing that a pre-tribulation rapture from the earth is correct in the light of truth is living a pipe dream. And what is that truth?

1) Rev. 12:6 is an exodus
2) Rev. 12:14 is a harvest
3) And it is common sense that the saints must be taken from the earth before the wrath of God at the end of the seven years.

And these pre-trib guys have developed several weird concepts to justify the pre-tribulation rapture doctrine. Similar to the Pharisees justifying the crazy things they came up with. And both of these groups have done their best to hijack the Savior's doctrine into something that it is not.

There is no pre-tribulation rapture. Wow! These guys have bowls on their heads with aluminium foil.
Brethren, come back to us in the light of truth. Wash away Lucifer's trickery in the blood of Jesus Christ to live through the tribulation. Do not be afraid of that piece of trash, but confront your fears and strive to join with Jesus Christ at the post-tribulation rapture.

QUOTE
"And I remember the question regarding the "pre, mid, and post," tribulation raptures. Like, we each got to decide for ourselves which one is right. That question has been answered. And anyone believing that a pre-tribulation rapture from the earth is correct in the light of truth is living a pipe dream. And what is that truth?"

I have been in the rapture timing debate for many years.
These types of reckless baseless theories with nothing backing them up is about 90% of your camp's foundation.

You are not honest.
You will not reconcile verses.

I got a news flash for you.
The bible debunks your deal.
I am forcing you to go against the word of God.
That is why you divert.

 

[Psalm1]

That’s an interesting perspective. Revelation’s timeline can be difficult to piece together, but I’ve always understood the thousand years as a period where the earth is left desolate after Christ’s return, with the righteous resurrected and with Him, while the final judgment of the rest comes later. It really shows how serious the “book of life” language is throughout Scripture.

Yes.
It is what happens

 

[Psalm1]

P1, the things you are claiming are inaccurate.
Because you hold to a pre-trib false doctrine.
Thus, anything you come up with to support the false doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture has putrefying holes (Isa. 1:6) that can be easily exposed. Because it supports false doctrine.

And the sad thing is that when saints have that false doctrine as their only option, and then find themselves in the tribulation proper, they will feel betrayed. And many of the weaker saints will loose their eternal lives when they cave to Lucifer for the mark of the beast. So I am fighting for their souls and debunking your immature and selfish pre-tribulation false doctrine.

And I must say that many of my friends hold to this pre-tribulation false doctrine. And I do not argue with them but know what is coming to test their testimonies. But for you I am working to show the greater light. So that anyone reading this will know the truth.

Your doctrine is so lame and false

Your doctrine says the rapture is the saints going up after the trib, and meet Jesus in the air, but never go to heaven.
Instead they do a supposed, made up uturn back to earth.
Your teachers made that up out of thin air.
The result...you must change every rapture verse.
It is appalling. and the reason you divert into generalities is because you guys are so embarrassed

 

[Psalm1]

P1,
There is "not" a pre-tribulation rapture.
You will not escape the tribulation.
The verses you rely upon are about other things.
Sorry to be the bearer of bad news.
You have been deceived by Lucifer.

Prove it.
Post the verses I reference and reconcile them.
Little boys hide and call their opponent names out of fear.

 

[Psalm1]

Very good.
What is the hour of temptation?
It is the mark of the beast.
Thus, the individuals spoken to in Rev. 3:10 will be spared from the trial of the mark of the beast, in the tribulation.
Meaning, they will go into the tribulation but not into the time of the mark of the beast.
At that time, they will be taken on an exodus (Rev. 12:6), and not taken off the earth in a rapture.
Again, the pre-tribulation false doctrine is destroyed.

And Luke 21:36
Watch ye therefore, (watch)
and pray always, (and pray)
that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things (that you may be accounted to God worthy to escape these things)
that shall come to pass, (that shall come to pass)
and (and)
to stand before the Son of man.

Many will be accounted worthy to escape the things referenced in this chapter and verse.
But like Christ asking to be spared the bitter cup, it was not and will not be so.
Therefore, the greater desire is to be worthy to stand before Jesus Christ, having salvation (Rev. 12:11).

Stay with me, and you will learn how to read scripture.

In just minutes, after Jesus declares that escape verse, and it's condition, The word of God goes on to describe the 7yr trib, "Jacobs trouble". Ahem..."The hour of temptation".
So vivid and clear.
But you need it to Not MEAN the obvious.

Your doctrine diverts from What Jesus was pointing to.
As if you think people can not see the obvious.
The penalty for changing Revelation is severe.
Sobering.
You better do serious heart and mind search.
Those verses I posted about the AC killing every believer, that you cast down and reframe is a huge red flag.

 

[Psalm1]

It is not they, but I myself.
And just because you have not heard this before does not negate its truth. You have been taught the doctrine of the various Christian churches. And now that we are going into the tribulation, I am teaching you the doctrine of Jesus Christ. Learn to read the metaphors for your safety and security in the doctrine of Jesus Christ. Come into the light of Jesus Christ.

Show him a postrib rapture verse.
You missed a golden opportunity to show him a single postrib rapture verse.
You do have one ????
I have never seen one.
Surely you can give us one????

Don't divert or go in to your generalized beliefs.
Post a verse.

 

[Psalm1]

P1, the things you are claiming are inaccurate.
Because you hold to a pre-trib false doctrine.
Thus, anything you come up with to support the false doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture has putrefying holes (Isa. 1:6) that can be easily exposed. Because it supports false doctrine.

And the sad thing is that when saints have that false doctrine as their only option, and then find themselves in the tribulation proper, they will feel betrayed. And many of the weaker saints will loose their eternal lives when they cave to Lucifer for the mark of the beast. So I am fighting for their souls and debunking your immature and selfish pre-tribulation false doctrine.

And I must say that many of my friends hold to this pre-tribulation false doctrine. And I do not argue with them but know what is coming to test their testimonies. But for you I am working to show the greater light. So that anyone reading this will know the truth.

Here is what you label inaccurate

Acts one
" like manner" is reframed into "not like manner"
The virgin parable in mat 25 changed to steer the reader away from what it CLEARLY says.
The 2 escape verses changed in hopes to divert from what they say.
"The gathering before the flood" in mat 24, is deliberately muddied up as if there is no pretrib gathering in Noah.

The gathering in Luke 17 where Jesus uses Lot as a picture of a pretrib rapture is either omitted or muddied up.

All 100% spot on.

Try and take them one at a time and show me your corrections.

Get a bible.
Show us where the word of God is inaccurate.

 

[LTL]

Yes.
It is what happens

The Sabbath day is not desolate.
Man has been upon the earth for six thousand years, and now the earth will rest in the day of the Lord. This does not mean the earth is desolate.

Day 1
Day 2
Day 3
Day 4, Jesus Christ comes to the earth
Day 5
Day 6, The last 3.5-years remove Lucifer from power over the earth. This is the tribulation
Day 7, The first 3.5 years remove the wicked from the earth. This is the judgment

The earth is never desolate. From where are you guys getting these crazy ideas? First, a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine, and now an earth desolate doctrine. The problem is that you have done this to the Savior's church for years. Propagating crazy and false doctrines.

The Savior is not desolate, and neither is his Sabbath. Wake up!

 

[LTL]

Here is what you label inaccurate

Acts one
" like manner" is reframed into "not like manner"
The virgin parable in mat 25 changed to steer the reader away from what it CLEARLY says.
The 2 escape verses changed in hopes to divert from what they say.
"The gathering before the flood" in mat 24, is deliberately muddied up as if there is no pretrib gathering in Noah.

The gathering in Luke 17 where Jesus uses Lot as a picture of a pretrib rapture is either omitted or muddied up.

I
Here is the "like manner" verse that you referenced.
Acts 1:11
"Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven."

The verse explains that Jesus Christ will come to the earth in like manner as he left the earth. There is no ambiguity in this verse. It is very clear. I do not understand how you relate this verse to a pre-tribulation rapture.

II
Matt. 25 The Virgin Parable
Matt. 15:6, "And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him."

The question that is answered in the parable pertains to how we are to meet the Savior. First, we are to have our lamps lighted.

Matt. 25:1-5, Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom. 2And five of them were wise, and five were foolish. 3They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them: 4But the wise took oil in their vessels (homes) with their lamps. 5While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.

Some of the virgins did not have oil in their homes to refill their lamps. Notice in the parable that the foolish had oil in their lamps, and when the lamps ran out of oil, they could not refill. However, the wise who were burning the lamps just like the foolish were burning their lamps, had oil in their homes. Therefore, the wise could refill their lamps with oil.

Matt. 25:7-10
7Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps. 8And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out. 9But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves. 10And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.

As you can see in the above verses, the dividing line between the wise and foolish virgins has to do with oil that could be purchased. The wise had oil in their homes before the Savior's coming, but the foolish had not. Thus, to go to the marriage, the virgins must have oil in their homes for their lamps.

Matt. 25:11-12
11Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us. 12But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not. 13Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

In the end it came down to who had oil in their homes vs. who had to go out to purchase oil. The oil represents food. Thus, those saints who have food in their homes to survive the fall of Babylon are set to go and meet the Savior. Since the tribulation begins with the fall of Babylon, and the saints must have food in their homes during the fall of Babylon, then they are the saints who are prepared to go out to meet the Savior upon his return. No pre-tribulation rapture.

 

[LTL]

III
The two escape verses are a fallacy.

IV
Matt. 25:37-41, Noah
37But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Remember that Noah went into the ark and closed the door. Then he was lifted up on the waters of salvation.

38For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, 39And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

Thus, after Noah enter into the ark came the flood. Likewise, when the sign of the fall of Babylon comes, we are to go into our homes for the destruction of Babylon. Afterwards is the exodus, where those who are called will be taken, as shown in Rev. 12:6. Noah did not leave the earth in a pre-tribulation rapture but was protected in his home, which was the Ark.

40Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 41Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 42Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

In verse 40 we see what is taking place after Babylon has fallen. Life goes on, and people work with food to survive. In the end we are told to watch for the Savior's coming. Some people suppose that the Savior's coming is that one event where he descends to the earth. But there is more to it than that. There is home preparation, like that of Noah, who prepared food for the survival of his animals as well as his family. It is common knowledge that we prepare to meet the Savior, which includes surviving through the fall of Babylon with food in our homes. There is no pre-tribulation rapture.

V
Luke 17:28-37, Lot
28Likewise also as it was in the days of Lot; they did eat, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they builded;

Remember that Lot was pulled into his home by the angel. Then, after a stay in his home with his family, he went out of Sodom.

29But the same day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven, and destroyed them all. 30Even thus shall it be in the day when the Son of man is revealed.

After Lot was in his home, and then went out of Sodom, came destruction upon the cities. Thus, there will be the fall of Babylon forcing the saints into their homes, with their food. And then they will be taken out on an exodus.

31In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.

Verse 31 tells us that at the time of the exodus we are to leave the stuff in the house. The house where we were staying with our food. This is the exodus. The next verse shows the exodus with Lot's wife who wanted to return to the stuff in her home.

32Remember Lot's wife. 33Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it. 34I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.

In Verse 32 we see that some saints will be taken and others left. And why? Because only select individuals are called to be servants to Jesus Christ, as shown in Rev. 14:1. Thus, on one side of the world some will be sleeping, and the other side of the world some will be working in the field. The taking of the servants to the exodus is all at one time. However, as explained in Verse 37 this is not a rapture from the earth as some suppose.

35Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. 36Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

37And they answered and said unto him, Where, Lord? And he said unto them, Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together.

Wheresoever the body of the church is, there will the eagles be gathered. The eagles are the servants of Jesus Christ. Thus, the servants of Jesus Christ are gathered to the body of the church. This again is Rev. 12:6.

6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

I realize that the idea of an exodus is foreign to many of you. Especially, since the false doctrine of the pre-trbulation dominates the Savior's church. Nevertheless, I stand as a witness to you that first comes the exodus, then comes the harvest of saints, then comes the rapture from the earth before the wrath of God at the end of the seven years.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

the false doctrine of the pre-trbulation dominates the Savior's church.

Highly doubtful, since Most internet postings seem to be about pre-wrath/post-trib, eh?

The Rightly Divided dispensationalists remain with the pre-trib, because Biblically,
With God's Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly Divided, we see:

God's Great GRACE ( Pre-trib ) Departure!

----------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:

The Bible: The BIG Picture

Amen.

 

[LTL]

Highly doubtful, since Most internet postings seem to be about pre-wrath/post-trib, eh?

I misspoke where I said, "the false doctrine of the pre-trbulation dominates the Savior's church."

I meant to say, "the false doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture dominates the Savior's church."
We are in the pre-tribulation now, and it is very real.

Also, I noticed your reference to 1 Thessalonians 4:18, and here is the preceding chiasmus to that verse.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord (we say unto you from Jesus Christ),
a) that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (that we who are both physically and spiritually alive in Jesus Christ and remain)
b) shall not prevent them which are asleep. (shall not prevent those who have passed over from mortality alive in Christ)

c) THE CHIASMUS CENTER
16For the Lord himself (because Jesus Christ himself)
shall descend from heaven (1, shall descend to the earth)
with a shout, (2, with a command)
with the voice of the archangel, and (3, with the voice of the archangel)
and with the trump of God: (4, and with the trump of God)

b) and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (those who have passed over from mortality and are spiritually alive in Christ rise first)
a) 17Then we which are alive and remain (then we which are physically and spiritually alive and remain)
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Thus, we who are alive and remain, as in stay loyal to the Savior and remain in mortality, will rise second. The word "remain" references the tribulation that the saints have gone through. Those who are alive in Christ, but do not remain, contrasted to those who are alive in Christ, but do remain. Those who do not remain rise first, and those who do remain rise second.

This is the great and glorious return of Jesus Christ to the earth. Millions of saints will be in the sky at the same time. Both those who have died the mortal death and those who have not.

 

[Psalm1]

The Sabbath day is not desolate.
Man has been upon the earth for six thousand years, and now the earth will rest in the day of the Lord. This does not mean the earth is desolate.

Day 1
Day 2
Day 3
Day 4, Jesus Christ comes to the earth
Day 5
Day 6, The last 3.5-years remove Lucifer from power over the earth. This is the tribulation
Day 7, The first 3.5 years remove the wicked from the earth. This is the judgment

The earth is never desolate. From where are you guys getting these crazy ideas? First, a pre-tribulation rapture doctrine, and now an earth desolate doctrine. The problem is that you have done this to the Savior's church for years. Propagating crazy and false doctrines.

The Savior is not desolate, and neither is his Sabbath. Wake up!

Baloney
What you are doing is not from God.
Stop acting like it us because you say so.

 

[Psalm1]

Baloney
What you are doing is not from God.
Stop acting like it us because you say so.

Some pretrib rapture haters here have such tipsy weak arguments.
Their propaganda and damage to the church has been going on for years.
They can not defend bible bullet points and resort to generalities and accusations.
Name calling tactics always follows these individuals.
No honest debate.

 

[Psalm1]

I misspoke where I said, "the false doctrine of the pre-trbulation dominates the Savior's church."

I meant to say, "the false doctrine of the pre-tribulation rapture dominates the Savior's church."
We are in the pre-tribulation now, and it is very real.

Also, I noticed your reference to 1 Thessalonians 4:18, and here is the preceding chiasmus to that verse.

15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord (we say unto you from Jesus Christ),
a) that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (that we who are both physically and spiritually alive in Jesus Christ and remain)
b) shall not prevent them which are asleep. (shall not prevent those who have passed over from mortality alive in Christ)

c) THE CHIASMUS CENTER
16For the Lord himself (because Jesus Christ himself)
shall descend from heaven (1, shall descend to the earth)
with a shout, (2, with a command)
with the voice of the archangel, and (3, with the voice of the archangel)
and with the trump of God: (4, and with the trump of God)

b) and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (those who have passed over from mortality and are spiritually alive in Christ rise first)
a) 17Then we which are alive and remain (then we which are physically and spiritually alive and remain)
shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. 18Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Thus, we who are alive and remain, as in stay loyal to the Savior and remain in mortality, will rise second. The word "remain" references the tribulation that the saints have gone through. Those who are alive in Christ, but do not remain, contrasted to those who are alive in Christ, but do remain. Those who do not remain rise first, and those who do remain rise second.

This is the great and glorious return of Jesus Christ to the earth. Millions of saints will be in the sky at the same time. Both those who have died the mortal death and those who have not.

Nope.
reread it without the postrib goggles.

What a coincidence.....it fits pretrib rapture perfectly.
What a coincidence!