Revelation 19- A major Key to understanding Revelations
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P1, you have gone off the deep end. Do you know what that means?
Are you able to understand simple English?
Shall we start over? Or do you wish to continue down the path of elementary doctrine?
You do not know what "going up into the clouds" means? Really?
Let's get back to the pre-trib false doctrine. Where you believe that you, are so righteous, that you will avoid the tribulation. Which, by the way, all the "not so righteous" will have to live through. P1, you are not so righteous, evidenced by your lack of understanding of the elementary doctrines of the kingdom.
Jesus went up into the sky. The clouds. Do you not know that clouds are in the sky? And when prophecy states that he comes in like manner, he comes back to the earth from the sky. The clouds. It is not that difficult to understand. But you want to argue the most simple things. Like, what is a bird? What is a cat? Surely you know these things. You know what "like manner" means. Surely the pre-trib community is not with you in this ignorance.
So let's pretend there is a pre-tribulation rapture. You are failing to meet the cut. Do you not know what that means? You are not qualifying. However, there is no pre-tribulation rapture. So you do not have to worry about that. There is however a mid-term harvest. and if you fail to meet that harvest, then there is a gathering during the 3.5-year judgment. So long, that is, if you do not take the mark of the beast. And you do not understand these deeper things of the gospel. Because, you can not grasp the elementary concepts such as Christ will return in like manner as he left. P1, you are better than this.
This is why nobody takes either of you seriously.
You are so busy with the personal juvenile put downs, you think it excuses verses that are an embarrassment to your failed doctrine
Note that postribs can not answer.
Instead they go to the page in their workbook that says ," in a failed debate, where you are painted into the failed postribber corner, invoke the personal juvenile attack postribber mode"
Lame.
That's like saying the white horses in Rev 19, have no heads.
" well it is not mentioned that they do"
When Moses came down from the mountain he had the tablets and the blueprints for the tabernacle.
Very precise.
God's precision.
His sword is Gods word.
It is precise and authenticates itself in vivid detail.
You= That bible is never to be invesstigated. It is gobbledygook.
What a disdain you have for pretribbers and God's word.
Could each person put a summary of their idea (post trib and pre trib)? I'm trying to learn and discern a lot here about revelation and where the "doctrines" have come from as you are both so sure of your word. I hope you have the time to do it among your other things and it would help a lot with my Bible study if you could.
Unfortunately the insulting and oneupmanship has rather got in the way and I don't think it's beneficial
Unfortunately the insulting and oneupmanship has rather got in the way and I don't think it's beneficial
Very good, S.
Regarding the placement of the rapture in the seven years of tribulation and judgment, here is a brief summary.
The Savior determines that it is time for his return. He is the rider of the white horse in Rev. 6:2 as revealed in Rev. 19:11. He had previously gone forth conquering death (Rev. 5:6), and now he is going forth to conquer Lucifer and wickedness from the earth. That is, he is going to take dominion over the earth.
The first thing that Jesus does in taking dominion over the earth is to destroy Babylon, the economic system. This is a system whereby the people have personal profit by serving other gods. Babylon has dominated the earth since the time of Adam.
Under Jesus' coming economic system, as shown in Rev. 21, the saints serve the eternal God and their reward is eternal life. This transfer from Babylon to New Jerusalem is given in the fourth storyline that I call the fall of Babylon storyline as shown in the follow chiasmus:
a) Ch. 17, Babylon is judged and burned (Rev. 17:1, Rev. 17:16).
b) Ch. 18, The 3.5-year tribulation begins where fallen Babylon gives way to the rule of the wicked upon the earth (Rev. 18:2). In response to the wicked who have taken over the earth after the fall of Babylon comes the call of the Savior for his army to embark on an exodus (Rev. 18:4).
c) THE CHIASMUS CENTER,
Ch. 19, The saints of the exodus arrive at their destination, where they participate in the marriage (Rev. 19:1-8). It is here that the 144,000 (Rev. 7) become sealed as the Savior's army (Rev. 14:1), going forth to harvest the saints of God (Rev. 14:14-16) and destroy the beast and his false prophet in the winepress (Rev. 14:14-20, Rev. 19:19-21), ending the 3.5-year tribulation. After the victory over the beast (Rev. 15:2), the 3.5-year judgment begins (Rev. 11:3), where the Savior's army goes forth to judge the remaining population of the earth. This army is given prescribed guidelines whereby they are to judge (Rev. 16:2-7).
b) Ch. 20, And with the battle of Armageddon (Rev. 16:16), the 3.5-year judgment ends. It is here that the two witnesses, as well as the saints of God, are taken off the earth in a rapture (Rev. 11:11-12). And with the destruction of the wicked in Armageddon, and the saints being taken off the earth in a rapture, Satan is bound for a thousand years (Rev. 20:1-3). Then comes the first resurrection proper (Rev. 20:4-6) during the thousand years, followed by the release of satan after the thousand years are over (Rev. 20:7-9). Satan is then cast into hell with the beast and false prophet, and then comes the judgment of the spiritually dead.
a) Ch. 21, New Jerusalem, having with the eternal economy of God, descends to the earth.
S, as you can see, there is an exodus, harvest, and rapture, in that order, as shown in the fall of Babylon storyline.
The event ending the 3.5-year tribulation is the winepress as described in Rev. 19:11-21 and Rev. 14:17-20. It is here that the beast and his false prophet are sent to hell (Rev. 19:20 and Rev. 20:10). And this ends the saga of the fall of Babylon, and the world being taken over by the beast and false prophet.
After the winepress, the saints await the 3.5-year judgment (Rev. 15:2).
At the end of the 3.5-year judgment, another group of wicked men gather around Jerusalem city, similar to what the beast and false prophet had done, and this is the gathering to Armageddon proper (Rev. 16:16).
As the Savior destroys these wicked, then it is similar to what happened 3.5-years earlier when Jesus in the winepress had destroyed the beast and false prophet.
So while the Savior conducted the winepress, he also conducts the wrath of God 3.5-years later. In both cases, the wicked are destroyed. But in this second case, the wrath of God, all the remaining populations of the earth are removed. So the saints must be taken off the earth before the wrath of God ending as shown in Chapter Eleven.
16:19And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell:
and great Babylon came in remembrance before God,
to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
Thus, God threw down Babylon with the fierceness of his wrath (Rev. 18:21) to be found no more at all. And in Rev. 16:19 he is remembering what he did to Babylon and is now doing the same thing to these wicked people at the end of the seven years.
18:21And a mighty angel took up a stone like a great millstone, and cast it into the sea, saying, Thus with violence shall that great city Babylon be thrown down, and shall be found no more at all. (This is referencing back to when Babylon was destroyed in Chatper Seventeen.)
And in his wrath he is doing the same thing to the population of the earth at the end of the seven years in Rev. 16:19.
Here is a chronology of these three destructions.
1) Babylon is destroyed (Rev. 17:16), be of good cheer because the saints of Rev. 6:9-11 have been avenged (Rev. 18:20). Babylon has been completely wiped out. (Rev. 18:21)
2) The beast and false prophet are destroyed in the winepress (Rev. 14:17-20, Rev. 19:19:21)
3) The entire population of the earth is wiped out (Rev. 16:19), and this destruction is similar to the absolute destruction of Babylon conducted previously.
Therefore, Babylon came into remembrance (Rev. 16:19).
What your beliefs are as to whether the rapture is before or after the tribulations and the verses that back them up. It would help me discern a lot
The "rapture" is at the resurrection and before the bowls of wrath are poured out. There is no scriptural basis for a sneaky pre-trib rapture. It was invented in the 1800s to make the heresy of dispensationaism work (also invented in the 1800s). I normally don't get involved in discussions on the rapture other than to make a comment now and then, so i really don't have a goto list of scripture that you're looking for.
However, if you have questions about it I'm sure things will come to my mind that I can help you with. One thing you need to ask yourself is why would God remove his people from the earth before his glorious and loud return that every eye will see when he prayed for the father not to do so.
I ask not that you take them out of the world, but that you guard them from the evil. John 17:15
