Is cessation an observation or theology?

[JimiSurvivor]

Your assertion that, 'Cessationists deny that any supernatural miracles occur at all', is completely untrue. It is a 'straw man' argument. God does supernatural things all the time. What Cessationists claim is that God no longer uses healers and miracle workers today. He still performs healings and miracles in answer to prayer.

(A). You said: God no longer uses healers and miracle workers today. He still performs healings and miracles in answer to prayer.
What if the one who prays for the sick person has already prayed about it. OR what if the one God sends to pray has a word from God saying that the one they are going to pray for will be healed.

(B) If we assume your premise that miraculous healing came either through the charismatic gift or as an answer to prayer we encounter many possibilities. For instance does the person with the GIFT need to pray at all or can he use it without having to pray - as if the gift granted him the power to use it whenever and ON whomever they wished?

(C) Did even Jesus have this power? I believe that as a human Jesus did not use His own power at all but surrendered His humanity to do only what the Father led him to do using the Holy Spirit's power
He said: 19....“Truly, truly, I tell you, the Son can do nothing by Himself, unless He sees the Father doing it. For whatever the Father does, the Son also does. 20 The Father loves the Son and shows Him all He does. And to your amazement, He will show Him even greater works than these.…(John 5:19-20)

(D) What shall we say about Ananias? Do we assume he had a special gift of healing? You could posit that, but that idea expressed in the text. Ananaias was only told to "lay hands on him" and that Saul's sight would be healed.

(D) All that the Early Believers did could not fit into these narrow theological categories

(B) It seems to me that by using emotionally charged words like HEALERS and MIRACLE-WORKERS you are trying, not to explain or inform but to emotionally prejudice your audience against anyone who prays for the sick or deperately needs a miracle from God. It is the kind of smear used by propagandists instead of arguments.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

I thought to bring up Matt 13:57 and see the perfect opening for it placed here with the reference spelled out right before me.
"And they took offense at Him..." where 'offense' is 'skandalizo' which is summarized as a falling away. And there's nobody who argues that isn't currently happening.

'Skandalizo' can also mean falling temporarily not falling forever

 

[Kroogz]

Those who have already convinced themselves (usually by bad arguments) that manifestations of the Spirit don't occur today are unlikely to be convinced by any evidence.

I don't believe this is the argument for most believers.

The majority of believers believe that the Spirit works in miracles.

Most/many believers don't believe @Dino246 has the specific power/gift to heal/speak in tongues/work miracles AT WILL to cure a cancer ward of all their ailments.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

Hello Lamar. I was in a Pentecostal Church for eight years, I also visited other Charismatic leaning Churches during that time. I think the style might have a lot to do with it, in my experience it's exuberant loud worship and the same in preaching style, that some might label sensationalist. One of the last meetings I attended the Pastor stood up and almost in tears said he praised God for the mighty works being done amongst us. I asked another member what the mighty works were and he shrugged, I asked the Pastor after the meeting and he put his arm round my shoulders but didn't pinpoint what the mighty works were. I believe they also had a doctrine called 'act as if', or as the world might say fake it til you make it. I just couldn't hack the dystopian nature of it anymore. Sadly a few years down the line that church closed due to low numbers. I believe there can be genuine miracles and prophecies in a church, but I think sometimes the sensationalist style in some quarters can act against it, as you have to take much of what they say with a pinch of salt and eventually regular unsubstantiated or fantastical claims can lead to disillusionment. God Bless

I have seen this taught in "Word of Faith Churches" who believe that faith entails denying the existence of real sickness and medical disorders. Faith, essentially, means denial. As a result, they often discontinue their medications and treatment with disastrous results. I remember how, many years ago, how a Word-of-Faith teacher named Hobart Freeman was indicted for encouraging a 15year old parishioner to take the step of faith by abandoning her kidney treatments after which she died. Freeman himself who was diabetic went off insulin and, as a result lost both his legs and died.

Certain members of my family who accepted some Phema Faith doctrine have resisted their medications and went into cognitive decline. In the past, some of us used to compare it to chewing tobacco: "COPELAND-HAGIN" chew it but never swallow it.
As often as I can I will intervene and attempt to dissuade my family from following the false doctrines associated with that movement. Like many Christian groups they are especially opposed to the concept of mental illness which most assume to be of demonic origin. I don't doubt that much of the torment people with mental illness go through is from Satan. A great deal of it has genetic biological roots. Since I myself have a mental illness and have had to deal with it as a reality, I know how much God the word and the Holy Spirit can help. However, I know that I cannot overcome it by wishing it didn't exist.

 

[Dino246]

I don't believe this is the argument for most believers.

The majority of believers believe that the Spirit works in miracles.

Most/many believers don't believe @Dino246 has the specific power/gift to heal/speak in tongues/work miracles AT WILL to cure a cancer ward of all their ailments.

Well, given that I don't believe that either (because that is not what Scripture teaches), what is the issue?

Given that Jesus didn't heal people by His own will either (He did the Father's will), I am wondering why anyone would challenge the operation of gifts in this manner.

 

[Mem]

'Skandalizo' can also mean falling temporarily not falling forever

Matt 11:6 speaks, "Blessed is he who does not fall away," and following other uses leads to Jn 16:1, "I have told you these things so that you will not fall away," and its cross-reference, Jn 14:29, "I have told you before it happens, so that when it does happen, you will believe."

'Skandalizo' can also mean falling temporarily not falling forever

I was thinking just today how I want to take the cheeks of a Jew between my palms, look him in the eye and tell him, 'The fate of the world depends on you! ...to, finally, say, "Blessed is He who comes in the Name of the Lord!"

 

[JimiSurvivor]

I don't believe this is the argument for most believers.

The majority of believers believe that the Spirit works in miracles.

Most/many believers don't believe @Dino246 has the specific power/gift to heal/speak in tongues/work miracles AT WILL to cure a cancer ward of all their ailments.

I agree I don't think any godly believer would claim to be able to heal anyone at anytime. Christ did not have that kind of independent power in His human form and I certainly do not think we do. He always depended on the Father. Miracles are God's work - not ours. While we can be USED by God we have to follow His lead in order to properly represent Him. I don't think God gives us any kind of a blessing or anointing that we can USE independently of Him.

When Elijah and Elisha did miracles they often told people to do odd things like pouring SALT in a well to heal it or throwing a branch in the water to make a lost axe float. I do not know why they did those things except that they must have heard God tell them to do it. Sometimes, there seemed to be a redemptive purpose such as when the prophet told Naaman to wash in the Jordan. The general was offended because the Jordan seemed like a muddy creek compared to the rivers in Syria. This was done to put Naaman in his place, to humble him so he could see God was not impressed with him.

 

[Anchorite]

Jesus did heal anyone at any time when they came to Him. Jesus also practiced remote healing by just speaking the word. There is no record of Jesus turning anyone away or saying “In your case, it is not God’s will to heal you. Your sickness is a test to make you more humble.”

Jesus often told people “thy faith hath made thee well.”

 

[JimiSurvivor]

I would hate to be in the position of telling some desperate person "No I am sorry. I cant pray for you" Nor would I tell them that I had no more faith that their petition was going to be answered than I would expect a WISH to be fulfilled if I dropped s penny in a wishing well. Some people have no more faith than that but didn't Christ tell us we have to believe?

James chapter 1 says: 6 But he must ask in faith, without doubting, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That man should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.…
Perhaps having faith for supernatural natural miracles has also ceased along with all the other gifts.

 

[Mem]

Heb 11:6

 

[Anchorite]

I would hate to be in the position of telling some desperate person "No I am sorry. I cant pray for you" Nor would I tell them that I had no more faith that their petition was going to be answered than I would expect a WISH to be fulfilled if I dropped s penny in a wishing well. Some people have no more faith than that but didn't Christ tell us we have to believe?

James chapter 1 says: 6 But he must ask in faith, without doubting, because he who doubts is like a wave of the sea, blown and tossed by the wind. 7 That man should not expect to receive anything from the Lord.…
Perhaps having faith for supernatural natural miracles has also ceased along with all the other gifts.

Cessationism is merely a theory. There is no scriptural basis for it.

Frauds and fakes make the gifts of the Spirit look ridiculous.

But who says all gifts of the Spirit have ceased? There was no time limit placed on them.


John 14:12

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


Mark 16

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


James 5

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

 

[TruthDefender]

I have seen this taught in "Word of Faith Churches" who believe that faith entails denying the existence of real sickness and medical disorders. Faith, essentially, means denial. As a result, they often discontinue their medications and treatment with disastrous results. I remember how, many years ago, how a Word-of-Faith teacher named Hobart Freeman was indicted for encouraging a 15year old parishioner to take the step of faith by abandoning her kidney treatments after which she died. Freeman himself who was diabetic went off insulin and, as a result lost both his legs and died.

Certain members of my family who accepted some Phema Faith doctrine have resisted their medications and went into cognitive decline. In the past, some of us used to compare it to chewing tobacco: "COPELAND-HAGIN" chew it but never swallow it.
As often as I can I will intervene and attempt to dissuade my family from following the false doctrines associated with that movement. Like many Christian groups they are especially opposed to the concept of mental illness which most assume to be of demonic origin. I don't doubt that much of the torment people with mental illness go through is from Satan. A great deal of it has genetic biological roots. Since I myself have a mental illness and have had to deal with it as a reality, I know how much God the word and the Holy Spirit can help. However, I know that I cannot overcome it by wishing it didn't exist.

Not all mental illness is from Satan! Many Psych problems are from life experiences.

 

[TruthDefender]

Cessationism is merely a theory. There is no scriptural basis for it.

Not at all.

Frauds and fakes make the gifts of the Spirit look ridiculous.

But who says all gifts of the Spirit have ceased? There was no time limit placed on them.

“Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭13‬:‭8‬-‭10‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The perfect is the culmination of the word of God = the Bible

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

 

[Mem]

Cessationism is merely a theory. There is no scriptural basis for it.

Frauds and fakes make the gifts of the Spirit look ridiculous.

But who says all gifts of the Spirit have ceased? There was no time limit placed on them.


John 14:12

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.


Mark 16

17 And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues;

18 They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.


James 5

14 Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord:

15 And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him.

16 Confess your faults one to another, and pray one for another, that ye may be healed. The effectual fervent prayer of a righteous man availeth much.

I assume that the gift of healing is tested in the same way as the gift of prophecy. If it doesn't happen, then some necessary component must be missing. In the case of false prophecy, the missing component is God having said. I not only just want to believe Eph 3:20, written within a context of Paul's prayer for the Ephesians which begins Eph 3:16 and ends with Eph 3:19, "that you may be filled with all the fullness of God," I do believe it.

 

[Anchorite]

Not at all.


“Love never fails. But whether there are prophecies, they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; whether there is knowledge, it will vanish away. For we know in part and we prophesy in part. But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part will be done away.”
‭‭I Corinthians‬ ‭13‬:‭8‬-‭10‬ ‭NKJV‬‬

The perfect is the culmination of the word of God = the Bible

Other theologians say the perfect is Jesus. When Christ returns, the gifts will cease, because not needed.

It makes no sense for healings and miracles to cease just because the Bible canon is complete. People still get sick and have disabilities. Why would God withdraw the gift blessings when the canon was culminated?

If the perfect has already come, you would not know it, for knowledge will vanish away.

 

[Mem]

Php 4:19, and we won't stopping 'needing' until we are perfect so, as long as we have needs, God will supply all of them, according to His riches in glory in Christ Jesus.
Luke 9:11

 

[TruthDefender]

Other theologians say the perfect is Jesus. When Christ returns, the gifts will cease, because not needed.

Other theologians say a lot of things that aren’t true, because they twist doctrine to fit their man made dogma.

Think about it, when Christ returns we won’t have to worry about such things, because all things will be rolled up like a scroll. The perfect is His word, which we have.

It makes no sense for healings and miracles to cease just because the Bible canon is complete. People still get sick and have disabilities. Why would God withdraw the gift blessings when the canon was culminated?

Why would the apostles end?

If the perfect has already come, you would not know it, for knowledge will vanish away.

The knowledge we have is from the word.

 

[Anchorite]

Other theologians say a lot of things that aren’t true, because they twist doctrine to fit their man made dogma.

Cessationism is twisted doctrine and man made dogma, with no scriptural support.

It negates many proclamations by Jesus.

John 14:12

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

 

[Kroogz]

Well, given that I don't believe that either (because that is not what Scripture teaches), what is the issue?

Given that Jesus didn't heal people by His own will either (He did the Father's will), I am wondering why anyone would challenge the operation of gifts in this manner.

I would never challenge miracles.......I would sure challenge a believer thinking they are miracle workers,

 

[Kroogz]

Cessationism is twisted doctrine and man made dogma, with no scriptural support.

It negates many proclamations by Jesus.

John 14:12

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

Well, You guys need to start clearing the cancer wards of dying victims then.......Or you may need to LEARN what John 14:12 really means.