The book of Job

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tttallison said:
What I presented was that Job represented Edom as Jacob represented Israel. Gen 25:30 And Esau said to Jacob, Feed me, I pray thee, with that same red pottage; for I am faint: therefore was his name called Edom. Gen 36:1 Now these are the generations of Esau, who is Edom. Jacob's name was changed to Israel, and Esau's name was changed to Edom. Gen 35:10 And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel.

Isn't that amazing, Obadiah hit the nail right on the head. Job 41:4 Will he make a covenant with thee? wilt thou take him for a servant
for ever? Job 41:34 He beholdeth all high things: he is a king over all the children of pride.

It was Job's pride in his own righteousness that brought Job down. Job 40:8 Wilt thou also disannul my judgment? wilt thou condemn me, that thou mayest be righteous?
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And what I presented is that there is no place in the Bible where God referred to Esau as being righteous and perfect and none like him in all the earth. That does not fit. There is no place in the Bible where we see Esau offering burnt offerings to God for his children lest they had sinned. Nor is there any prophecy in the Bible where Esau receives a double blessing.

I have also pointed out that Job is compared to the New Testament ministry by James in chapter 5. Born again Christians who have been given the ministry of reconciliation are not likened to Esau.
 
Mem said:
The employment of this tactic proliferates throughout the discussion forum.
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What is wrong with that tactic? Where is the answer to this statement, or doesn't it fit the narrative? God asked Job if he was going to take the king of pride for a servant forever and make a covenant with him. Why did God say this to Job? What would you think if God said that to you?
 
tttallison said:
It was Job's pride in his own righteousness that brought Job down.
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not according to Job 1:8-12 ...

Job 1:8-12

8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

9 Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

10 Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

12 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.


not according to Job 2:3-7

3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

4 And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

6 And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.

7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.


satan accused Job ... God stayed the hand of satan from killing Job ... satan afflicted Job ... Job withstood satan's onslaught ...

.
 
tttallison said:
What is wrong with that tactic? Where is the answer to this statement, or doesn't it fit the narrative? God asked Job if he was going to take the king of pride for a servant forever and make a covenant with him. Why did God say this to Job? What would you think if God said that to you?
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All the cross-refences to Ezekiel 33:14, with concern to the Message of the Watchman, offers insight into those questions.

And Ezek 33:13's subject is in concern to a righteous man, so I have reservations about any equation of Job to Esau, although that Jacob pretended to be Esau to receive the blessing of the firstborn (did Jacob necessarily need to do all that in order to receive it, especially that it was promised in the first place? Rebecca's idea seems to me reminiscent of Sarah's).

and look at Ezek 33:17, doesn't this sound strikingly similar to Job's claim?

Effectively, isn't call God unjust calling him evil? And doesn't declaring God evil effectively declaring evil as good?
 
tttallison said:
What is wrong with that tactic? Where is the answer to this statement, or doesn't it fit the narrative? God asked Job if he was going to take the king of pride for a servant forever and make a covenant with him. Why did God say this to Job? What would you think if God said that to you?
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The whole point of the passage is that under no circumstances could this occur. There is no way Job could "take the king of pride for a servant forever" ... nor could Job "make a covenant with him". that is why God said "this to Job".

God pointed out the impossibility of taking leviathan and training leviathan to be a servant ... or making an agreement with leviathan.

Job understood ...

.
 
tttallison said:
God asked Job if he was going to take the king of pride for a servant forever and make a covenant with him. Why did God say this to Job? What would you think if God said that to you?
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If you're alluding to God having made a covenant with him taken him and taking him to be his servant forever, I have reservations about that interpretation of it also. The cross-references to Exo 23:32 offer a summary of what that involves. It's taking upon yourself that particular ideology, and isn't 'making him a servant' forever employing his services, indefinitely, as a primary way of life? So, if God asked me this, He would effectively be asking me, "Is this the way you're going?" and "Are you not returning from this idea?
 
Mem said:
All the cross-refences to Ezekiel 33:14, with concern to the Message of the Watchman, offers insight into those questions.

And Ezek 33:13's subject is in concern to a righteous man, so I have reservations about any equation of Job to Esau, although that Jacob pretended to be Esau to receive the blessing of the firstborn (did Jacob necessarily need to do all that in order to receive it, especially that it was promised in the first place? Rebecca's idea seems to me reminiscent of Sarah's).

and look at Ezek 33:17, doesn't this sound strikingly similar to Job's claim?

Effectively, isn't call God unjust calling him evil? And doesn't declaring God evil effectively declaring evil as good?
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Mem said:
All the cross-refences to Ezekiel 33:14, with concern to the Message of the Watchman, offers insight into those questions.

And Ezek 33:13's subject is in concern to a righteous man, so I have reservations about any equation of Job to Esau, although that Jacob pretended to be Esau to receive the blessing of the firstborn (did Jacob necessarily need to do all that in order to receive it, especially that it was promised in the first place? Rebecca's idea seems to me reminiscent of Sarah's).

and look at Ezek 33:17, doesn't this sound strikingly similar to Job's claim?

Effectively, isn't call God unjust calling him evil? And doesn't declaring God evil effectively declaring evil as good?
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I had presented Ezekiel 3 a number of times at the point where it says when a righteous man sins he is no longer righteous.

It sounds like you are saying Job had fallen on his own righteousness.

What about Lamentations where it says the cup of woe would fall on Edom after it had fallen on Zion? Lam 4:21-22 And what bout the verses in Lamentations 3:1-18 where we see the parallel woe that also fell on Job, and then what about Job's name meaning hated, and what about the first verse in the book of Job that says Job was from Uz? Why mention Uz when it does not mention anything about his heritage, while at the time telling us everything about Elihu's heritage? Uz is in the land of Edom.

Why do so many people get bent out of shape when you suggest that God had a reason for chastising Job? The book appears to tell us why, indirectly, in so many ways
 
tttallison said:
Why do so many people get bent out of shape when you suggest that God had a reason for chastising Job? The book appears to tell us why, indirectly, in so many ways
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Adopted assumptions are ideas people officially take to themselves to nurture as their very own, and it hurts when anyone even suggests them to be illegitimate.
 
Mem said:
If you're alluding to God having made a covenant with him taken him and taking him to be his servant forever, I have reservations about that interpretation of it also. The cross-references to Exo 23:32 offer a summary of what that involves. It's taking upon yourself that particular ideology, and isn't 'making him a servant' forever employing his services, indefinitely, as a primary way of life? So, if God asked me this, He would effectively be asking me, "Is this the way you're going?" and "Are you not returning from this idea?
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Did you mean to say "Satan" instead of "God" having made a covenant?
 
Mem said:
Adopted assumptions are ideas people officially take to themselves to nurture as their very own, and it hurts when anyone even suggests them to be illegitimate.
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That makes sense. Many parents have lost children and listened to pastors present Job as an example of why bad things happen to good people. This then gets molded into the fabric of many lives. Many things happen that we have no answer for, but God always has a reason. An example is the crippled man from birth. IMO God admonished Job to bring him into the family of God. To save his soul. Elihu explained this well in Job 33.
 
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tttallison said:
Did you mean to say "Satan" instead of "God" having made a covenant?
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No, I got the impression that God asked if Job 'could' make a covenant with Satan, but I see now that He asked if Satan would make a covenant with him to take him for a slave forever, which is followed up with a question of "can you" pet him like a bird. And since God 'can' do anything, my question was meant to gain clarification of your position in regard to whether God 'did' make a covenant with Satan taking him as a servant forever.
 
tttallison said:
Here is the problem I see.

We are talking about faith, and about believing.

We have to ask ourselves, faith in what and believing in what.

Yes we can say faith in God, but does that means we have faith that God exists, or does it mean more than that.

Yes Job said he believed God would save him, but then, don't we have to ask why God would save him?
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More equivocation?

James is writing to believers, and he is encouraging believers to remain faithful to God during their trials and tribulations. In that vein, James references Job as an example of such patience, endurance, steadfastness with his faith in God, not in himself.

Can you answer this question? According to your interpretation, why would James commend Job?

Look also at the first letter of the apostle Peter, which reads like a summary Job's ordeal:

1 Peter 5:9-11
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Like James, Peter is writing to believers. He is encouraging them to remain steadfast in their faith in God when they face persecution and suffering. This is precisely Job's story, a man whose faith in God is tested for God's purposes.

Can you answer this question? According to your interpretation, why would James commend Job?
 
christophernyc said:
More equivocation?

James is writing to believers, and he is encouraging believers to remain faithful to God during their trials and tribulations. In that vein, James references Job as an example of such patience, endurance, steadfastness with his faith in God, not in himself.

Can you answer this question? According to your interpretation, why would James commend Job?

Look also at the first letter of the apostle Peter, which reads like a summary Job's ordeal:

1 Peter 5:9-11
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour: Whom resist steadfast in the faith, knowing that the same afflictions are accomplished in your brethren that are in the world. But the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make you perfect, stablish, strengthen, settle you. To him be glory and dominion for ever and ever. Amen.

Like James, Peter is writing to believers. He is encouraging them to remain steadfast in their faith in God when they face persecution and suffering. This is precisely Job's story, a man whose faith in God is tested for God's purposes.

Can you answer this question? According to your interpretation, why would James commend Job?
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I would commend Job. There is not to many people that would bless God after losing their children and all their possessions.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee. Eze 28:17 Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee. Sound a little familiar?

Job 29:2 Oh that I were as in months past, as in the days when God preserved me; Job 29:11 When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me: Job 29:14 I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem. Job 29:18 Then I said, I shall die in my nest, and I shall multiply my days as the sand. Job 29:20 My glory was fresh in me, and my bow was renewed in my hand. Job 29:21 Unto me men gave ear, and waited, and kept silence at my counsel. Job 29:23 And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide as for the latter rain. Job 29:24 If I laughed on them, they believed it not; and the light of my countenance they cast not down. Job 29:25 and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforteth the mourners.
 
tttallison said:
I would commend Job. There is not to many people that would bless God after losing their children and all their possessions.
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The question was not if you would commend Job. The question is why would James commend Job?

You can't have it both ways. Either Job is steadfastly persevering in his faith in God, or he is stubbornly persevering in his pride and self-righteousness (according to your interpretation).

Which is it?
 
christophernyc said:
The question was not if you would commend Job. The question is why would James commend Job?

You can't have it both ways. Either Job is steadfastly persevering in his faith in God, or he is stubbornly persevering in his pride and self-righteousness (according to your interpretation).

Which is it?
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Why would you give me a false dichotomy.
 
tttallison said:
I gave you the answer in post 593. I would commend Job. There is not too many people that would bless God after losing their children and all their possessions.
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The question is not why you would commend Job. The question is why James would commend Job.

So why would James commend Job?
 
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