Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

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DavidLamb said:
What about a bible passage like this one, which does mention sin and forgiveness, but does so in a non-abstract way:

(Col 2:13) And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses,
(Col 2:14) having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

Jesus has wiped out the handwriting of requirements, has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross. The bible mentions forgiveness many times, but I find Colossians 2:13-14 particularly practical. I hope that helps.
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Thank you David

my difficulty is not so much with Words in the bible, I always seek the true mean of every difficult word possible,
but with the misunderstand of others.

a scripture you quoted says this: "uncircumcision of your flesh"
My guess, few understand what this is explaining.

The O and the N talk of the "circumcision without hands" what Christ is explaining; our human nature can only be removed by God and it must be. Once in the process of salvation i.e. being given eternal life, the Father removes little by little over our life time, our carnal nature and in its place builds His Holy Righteous Divine nature.

my concern with the word "forgiveness" is the same, few really understand what is taking place.

Over the last few years I have been trying to deeply understand the implications and immensity of What Christ gave up to become our Passover.

Here is the "God Being" that made every single thing that exist, including man. That mind, that power can not be, in the least, understood, comprehended by the mind of man. and He willingly walked away and became flesh.

We humans can not even began to understand what Jesus Christ gave up to give us life. and to just say we are "forgiven'??

If I say I forgive the money you owe me, is one thing, but to just "forgive" all our sins against God that all carry the penalty of eternal death, is another. It is ignoring Christ.

I hope this conveys my difficulty.

have a great day
 
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memberofthebride said:
Thank you David

my difficulty is not so much with Words in the bible, I always seek the true mean of every difficult word possible,
but with the misunderstand of others.

a scripture you quoted says this: "uncircumcision of your flesh"
My guess, few understand what this is explaining.

The O and the N talk of the "circumcision without hands" what Christ is explaining; our human nature can only be removed by God and it must be. Once in the process of salvation i.e. being given eternal life, the Father removes little by little over our life time, our carnal nature and in its place builds His Holy Righteous Divine nature.

my concern with the word "forgiveness" is the same, few really understand what is taking place.

Over the last few years I have been trying to deeply understand the implications and immensity of What Christ gave up to become our Passover.

Here is the "God Being" that made every single thing that exist, including man. That mind, that power can not be, in the least, understood, comprehended by the mind of man. and He willingly walked away and became flesh.

We humans can not even began to understand what Jesus Christ gave up to give us life. and to just say we are "forgiven'??

If I say I forgive the money you owe me, is one thing, but to just "forgive" all our sins against God that all carry the penalty of eternal death, is another. It is ignoring Christ.

I hope this conveys my difficulty.

have a great day
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Yes thanks. That is a bit clearer now.
 
memberofthebride said:
Thank you, I do appreciate your kind efforts.

One comment concerning my personality, which is very evident.

I have come to have difficulty with words --- words for me must not be abstract or have many interpretations. i like clear mental pictures, not always possible.

the word" forgive" is misleading to me.. our sins are paid for by Christ death, sin demand a death.

When others say our sins are forgiven or they are under grace, in my mind this is ignoring the horrendous price Christ paid for us to be given the gift of eternal life.

and when the word "pardon" is used --------

I hope I am not being too strict, but I can not understand in any other way.

I am a 2 + 2 = 4 person and can not change LOL
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I understand. One of my good friends, a brother in Christ, struggled for the longest time over the word "forgive" So you are not alone.

When my wife accidentally steps on my foot, she knows I will forgive her. By that I mean: I won’t hold it against her. I release the grievance so that our relationship can remain peaceful and whole. That’s the heart of forgiveness—letting go of a debt rather than collecting it. In the same way, this everyday picture of forgiveness helps us understand what Scripture means when it says that God forgives.

In Scripture, God’s forgiveness works the same way. The biblical picture is that He puts our sins out of His sight, not by forgetting them, but by choosing not to treat us according to them. Forgiveness is not forgetfulness; it is God’s deliberate decision to look past our offense so that the relationship can be restored. He ends the hostility, removes the barrier, and chooses fellowship instead of estrangement. That is what it means for God to forgive—He releases the charge so that we can live in His presence without fear.

In the same way, God’s forgiveness pictured in the following story of the king and his son: a father who is so pleased with his son’s obedience that he grants him the right to bring others into his presence.
A king ruled over a vast kingdom, yet none of his servants was worthy to enter his private chamber, the place where his presence dwelled. One day the king’s son willingly chose to die a criminal’s death to show the entire kingdom how seriously the king regards evil. This act so deeply pleased the king that he raised his son from the dead and welcomed him into his private chamber. When the son entered, the king said, “My son, because you have honored me and upheld my justice, I will grant your request. What do you desire?” The son replied, “Father, I want those who follow me to enter the coming age and dwell with me forever.” And the king answered, “Because you have proven your obedience and satisfied my wrath, I grant it. Everyone who belongs to you will share your life in the age to come.” In this way the son becomes the advocate whose favor with the king secures the future of all who trust him.

Have a great weekend
.
 
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Roger316 said:
I understand. One of my good friends, a brother in Christ, struggled for the longest time over the word "forgive" So you are not alone.

When my wife accidentally steps on my foot, she knows I will forgive her. By that I mean: I won’t hold it against her. I release the grievance so that our relationship can remain peaceful and whole. That’s the heart of forgiveness—letting go of a debt rather than collecting it. In the same way, this everyday picture of forgiveness helps us understand what Scripture means when it says that God forgives.

In Scripture, God’s forgiveness works the same way. The biblical picture is that He puts our sins out of His sight, not by forgetting them, but by choosing not to treat us according to them. Forgiveness is not forgetfulness; it is God’s deliberate decision to look past our offense so that the relationship can be restored. He ends the hostility, removes the barrier, and chooses fellowship instead of estrangement. That is what it means for God to forgive—He releases the charge so that we can live in His presence without fear.

In the same way, God’s forgiveness pictured in the following story of the king and his son: a father who is so pleased with his son’s obedience that he grants him the right to bring others into his presence.
A king ruled over a vast kingdom, yet none of his servants was worthy to enter his private chamber, the place where his presence dwelled. One day the king’s son willingly chose to die a criminal’s death to show the entire kingdom how seriously the king regards evil. This act so deeply pleased the king that he raised his son from the dead and welcomed him into his private chamber. When the son entered, the king said, “My son, because you have honored me and upheld my justice, I will grant your request. What do you desire?” The son replied, “Father, I want those who follow me to enter the coming age and dwell with me forever.” And the king answered, “Because you have proven your obedience and satisfied my wrath, I grant it. Everyone who belongs to you will share your life in the age to come.” In this way the son becomes the advocate whose favor with the king secures the future of all who trust him.

Have a great weekend
.
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In Scripture, God’s forgiveness works the same way. The biblical picture is that He puts our sins out of His sight, not by forgetting them, but by choosing not to treat us according to them. Forgiveness is not forgetfulness; it is God’s deliberate decision to look past our offense.

perfect!!
I fully completely agree, wonderful way to understand the word. Thank you Roger

Even when Christ had paid our penalty --- the sins do not vanish in to the air,
And there are scriptures stating, I will remember them no more ---- I can not wait until I can remember no more my own sins!
 
brightfame52 said:
It still wasn't scriptural, and all posts go public and anyone can respond to them
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It repeats the same Scriptures used by roger. So if mine is as you claim then so was his because they're the same Scriptures.
 
Romans 5 is typical of an omniscient God who DOES NOT provide offers! Romans IS AN ANNOUNCEMENT not an offer. R5 is also encoded to be mathematically correct being 1:1, right? It's a guardrail to keep R5 from being misinterpreted.
 
rogerg said:
See post #449
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I noticed you completely ignored the Verse before the Verse you copied. Let's read the Verse you purposely ignored.

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:

Paul never said God did anything but said WHAT IF GOD did this.

This is why everyone understands that Romans chapter 9 is much like Paul saying Speaking in Tongues is like Angels Language.
 
lrs68 said:
I noticed you completely ignored the Verse before the Verse you copied. Let's read the Verse you purposely ignored.

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:

Paul never said God did anything but said WHAT IF GOD did this.

This is why everyone understands that Romans chapter 9 is much like Paul saying Speaking in Tongues is like Angels Language.
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In Romans 9:22–23 Paul’s phrase “what if” is not a hypothetical scenario but a rhetorical way of asserting what God has actually done in history. After showing that God chose Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau, and hardened Pharaoh to display His power, Paul brings the argument to its climax by describing God’s real action: He has endured “vessels of wrath” with great patience in order to make the riches of His glory known to “vessels of mercy.” The “what if” construction functions to silence objections, not to introduce speculation; Paul is saying that this pattern—God judging some and showing mercy to others—is exactly how God has acted in Israel’s story and exactly how He is acting now in the calling of a remnant.
 
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lrs68 said:
I noticed you completely ignored the Verse before the Verse you copied. Let's read the Verse you purposely ignored.

22 What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering vessels of wrath fitted unto destruction:

Paul never said God did anything but said WHAT IF GOD did this.

This is why everyone understands that Romans chapter 9 is much like Paul saying Speaking in Tongues is like Angels Language.
Click to expand...

As @Roger316 mentioned, those verses were meant to be understood as rhetorical not hypothetical.
 
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Roger316 said:
In Romans 9:22–23 Paul’s phrase “what if” is not a hypothetical scenario but a rhetorical way of asserting what God has actually done in history. After showing that God chose Isaac over Ishmael, Jacob over Esau, and hardened Pharaoh to display His power, Paul brings the argument to its climax by describing God’s real action: He has endured “vessels of wrath” with great patience in order to make the riches of His glory known to “vessels of mercy.” The “what if” construction functions to silence objections, not to introduce speculation; Paul is saying that this pattern—God judging some and showing mercy to others—is exactly how God has acted in Israel’s story and exactly how He is acting now in the calling of a remnant.
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God loves and wants to save everyone. Scriptures teaching divine omnilove include: John 3:16, 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4. Christ died to show God's love and the possible salvation of all (RM 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ, heretics).

Second, God is just (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3). Explanations of God's Word should not impugn God’s justice and love for all people (Joel 2:13, John 3:16). This parameter is affirmed in the OT (Psa. 145:17): “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” Even the wrath of God is an expression of His love and justice.
 
GWH said:
...and for as long as they continue to believe (Rom. 11:22, 1Cor. 15:2, Col. 1:22-23, 2Thes. 1:4-5, 2Tim. 2:12, Heb. 3:6&14, 10:35-36, Jam. 1:12, 2Pet. 1:10-11, 2:20, 1John 2:24-25 and Rev. 2:10.
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I don't read Greek, but I agree. I know in Latin that the word for "pact" in the gospel is different. It actually means that its done by one side only meaning that the deal is a garantee granted by a superior power and not mutual effort.
 
GWH said:
God loves and wants to save everyone. Scriptures teaching divine omnilove include: John 3:16, 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4. Christ died to show God's love and the possible salvation of all (RM 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ, heretics).

Second, God is just (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3). Explanations of God's Word should not impugn God’s justice and love for all people (Joel 2:13, John 3:16). This parameter is affirmed in the OT (Psa. 145:17): “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” Even the wrath of God is an expression of His love and justice.
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You're misguided both in the new and old pact. God testifies he has hand picked those he loves while they were still in the womb - Esau and Jacob. Jesus spoke about not giving pearls to swine, holy things to dogs and the parable of the wheat and the tares.
 
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GabrielMarques said:
You're misguided both in the new and old pact. God testifies he has hand picked those he loves while they were still in the womb - Esau and Jacob. Jesus spoke about not giving pearls to swine, holy things to dogs and the parable of the wheat and the tares.
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That was according to the promised seed line, not salvation. Election is always for service never salvation. Jesus is God's elect. For salvation? Nope, to be God's servant. There are elect angels. For salvation? Nope, to serve God's purpose. The Jews were God's elect nation. For salvation? Nope, to serve God's purpose according to the seed.
 
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