When by their fruit you will know them. Also after the true gospel is preached to them if they are God's elect, God will give the Holy Spirit to them. If nonelect, they will reject the Holy Spirit.
Why some people say you can't know if a person is nonelect or God's elect?
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God earnestly desires every man to come to the truth, no matter how much they reject Him, He will testify to them by His Spirit until they either finally agree to walk upright before Him, or are too far gone to ever repent.
To a degree I think you can speculate how condemned someone might be by their behavior, by their persistent disobedience to the truth of the scriptures, and their refusal to turn after godly rebuke.
But no one gets the final say but God, and no one but God needs to witness the fruit for them to be confirmed.
I know that for a while after accepting Jesus as a 14 year old, it still took a while for me to fully walk appropriately, and I still did mean things to people out of arrogance. That's why I pray that many come to the truth with the patience and help that I've been given.
However, only God knows whether a person who claims to be godly but who is behaving in an ungodly (unloving, untruthful) manner is in which of the following categories:
a. a normally loving person observed during a rare moment when he/she acted uncharacteristically (Phil. 3:12-16),
b. an immature Believer, who is making progress–you should have known him/her a year ago! (1Cor. 3:1-3, Eph. 4:11-15)
c. a truthseeker who has not yet learned the correct interpretation of God’s Word (1Cor. 6:9-11, Eph. 5:8-9), or
d. a pseudo-Christian (Matt. 7:21, 1John 2:19), who may affirm morality while rejecting its divine rationale.
e. an apostate or heretic (1John 2:19, Heb. 6:4-6), who once believed but became blasphemous or foolish and ship-wrecked their faith (1Tim. 1:19-20).
Rubbish. My wife and I lived opposite a single dad. He was friendly but drank a bit too much. We kept meeting him here and there, even after we moved house. The second last time we saw him he was going into the bottle shop to get his drink. I said to him, "God is chasing you." He said, "I know" and kept going.
Not long ago he came to visit. He had finally capitulated and turned to Jesus. It was obvious that he was a changed man. He'd been resisting the Lord for decades.
"Give the Holy Spirit to them". What kind of gospel is that? It is receiving Christ that saves and brings about the new birth. It is the name of Christ that saves, not the name of the Holy Spirit.
Not long ago he came to visit. He had finally capitulated and turned to Jesus. It was obvious that he was a changed man. He'd been resisting the Lord for decades.
"Give the Holy Spirit to them". What kind of gospel is that? It is receiving Christ that saves and brings about the new birth. It is the name of Christ that saves, not the name of the Holy Spirit.
It's simple, everyone is potentially an elect. God is no respecter of persons.
I admire and relate to your hope, but you need to grow in your faith. Elohim doesn't reveal himself to all nor does he wish all be saved. Did you read Christ's passage about the wheat and the tares?
Yet God is not willing that any should perish. He also takes no delight in the death of the wicked. How do you explain that?
1 Tomothy 2:
1I exhort therefore, first of all, that petitions, prayers, intercessions, and givings of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high places, that we may lead a tranquil and quiet life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave himself as a ransom for all, the testimony at the proper time, 7 to which I was appointed a preacher and an apostle—I am telling the truth in Christ, not lying—a teacher of the Gentiles in faith and truth.
8 I desire therefore that the men in every place pray, lifting up holy hands without anger and doubting.
Matthew 5:
43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who mistreat you and persecute you, 45 that you may be children of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the just and the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Don’t even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you only greet your friends, what more do you do than others? Don’t even the tax collectors do the same? 48 Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.
Luke 11:
9 “I tell you, keep asking, and it will be given you. Keep seeking, and you will find. Keep knocking, and it will be opened to you. 10 For everyone who asks receives. He who seeks finds. To him who knocks it will be opened.
11 “Which of you fathers, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, he won’t give him a snake instead of a fish, will he? 12 Or if he asks for an egg, he won’t give him a scorpion, will he? 13 If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him?”
Luke 6:
27 “But I tell you who hear: love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, 28 bless those who curse you, and pray for those who mistreat you. 29 To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer also the other; and from him who takes away your cloak, don’t withhold your coat also. 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and don’t ask him who takes away your goods to give them back again.
31 “As you would like people to do to you, do exactly so to them.
32 “If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners love those who love them. 33 If you do good to those who do good to you, what credit is that to you? For even sinners do the same. 34 If you lend to those from whom you hope to receive, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, to receive back as much. 35 But love your enemies, and do good, and lend, expecting nothing back; and your reward will be great, and you will be children of the Most High; for he is kind toward the unthankful and evil.
36 “Therefore be merciful,
even as your Father is also merciful.
37 Don’t judge,
and you won’t be judged.
Don’t condemn,
and you won’t be condemned.
Set free,
and you will be set free.
38 “Give, and it will be given to you: good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over, will be given to you. For with the same measure you measure it will be measured back to you.”
Even to the beast (the man), God says:
Ezekiel 21:
25 “‘You, deadly wounded wicked one, the prince of Israel, whose day has come, in the time of the iniquity of the end, 26 the Lord God says: “Remove the turban, and take off the crown. This will not be as it was. Exalt that which is low, and humble that which is high. 27 I will overturn, overturn, overturn it. This also will be no more, until he comes whose right it is; and I will give it.”’
Ezekiel 18:
21 “But if the wicked turns from all his sins that he has committed, and keeps all my statutes, and does that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live. He shall not die. 22 None of his transgressions that he has committed will be remembered against him. In his righteousness that he has done, he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?” says the Lord GOD, “and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?
24 “But when the righteous turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, should he live? None of his righteous deeds that he has done will be remembered. In his trespass that he has trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned, in them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not equal.’ Hear now, house of Israel: Is my way not equal? Aren’t your ways unequal? 26 When the righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in it, then he dies in his iniquity that he has done. 27 Again, when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he has committed, and does that which is lawful and right, he will save his soul alive. 28 Because he considers, and turns away from all his transgressions that he has committed, he shall surely live. He shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ House of Israel, aren’t my ways fair? Aren’t your ways unfair?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, everyone according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD. “Return, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions, so iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions in which you have transgressed; and make yourself a new heart and a new spirit. For why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn yourselves, and live!
21 “But if the wicked turns from all his sins that he has committed, and keeps all my statutes, and does that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live. He shall not die. 22 None of his transgressions that he has committed will be remembered against him. In his righteousness that he has done, he shall live. 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked?” says the Lord GOD, “and not rather that he should return from his way, and live?
24 “But when the righteous turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and does according to all the abominations that the wicked man does, should he live? None of his righteous deeds that he has done will be remembered. In his trespass that he has trespassed, and in his sin that he has sinned, in them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, ‘The way of the Lord is not equal.’ Hear now, house of Israel: Is my way not equal? Aren’t your ways unequal? 26 When the righteous man turns away from his righteousness, and commits iniquity, and dies in it, then he dies in his iniquity that he has done. 27 Again, when the wicked man turns away from his wickedness that he has committed, and does that which is lawful and right, he will save his soul alive. 28 Because he considers, and turns away from all his transgressions that he has committed, he shall surely live. He shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, ‘The way of the Lord is not fair.’ House of Israel, aren’t my ways fair? Aren’t your ways unfair?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, house of Israel, everyone according to his ways,” says the Lord GOD. “Return, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions, so iniquity will not be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all your transgressions in which you have transgressed; and make yourself a new heart and a new spirit. For why will you die, house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of him who dies,” says the Lord GOD. “Therefore turn yourselves, and live!
I Timothy 2
3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
In today's society with the many hypocrites some people cannot tell concerning many people who is claiming Christ or not unless they say it or an indication not of their lifestyle like a bumper sticker.
Which many say they cannot abstain from sin so they are sinning so it makes the distinction harder.
But God said be separate from them and do not love the world and the things in it and the system to come God said come out of them.
Also how do you know who will be saved or not when all are sinners and have come short of the glory of God.
The Bible says if a person calls someone a fool which means they are an all purpose idiot is in danger of hell fire for God has the capability to save anyone and how do they know they are like that all the time.
Not everybody uses the term fool in the same context but might say it for an isolated incident.
2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.
Jas 1:12 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.
2Ti 3:4 lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
2Ti 3:5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
2Ti 3:7 Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
The elect are those that hate sin, and do not want sin and allow the Spirit to lead them to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.
If they do sin they repent not wanting sin and allow the Spirit to lead them.
Then the world can make a better distinction and not so many people against Christianity.
Like you said you will know them by their fruits.
For a good tree does not bring forth corrupt fruit.
But millions of people say they cannot abstain from sin so they are sinning denying the Spirit leading them and love sin more than God and do not come to the truth.
Doing damage to Christianity which God said turn away from them.
Which OSAS fit this description who do not understand the truth.
1Ti 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
1Ti 2:4 Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
Mat 22:14 For many are called, but few are chosen.
1Co 1:26 For ye see your calling, brethren, how that not many wise men after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called.
God wants all people to be saved.
If God chooses in the beginning why is He calling people that cannot be chosen.
So we have a choice.
Predestination means God already had the plan to give mankind salvation in the beginning which this salvation is to whoever wants.
For God calls things that have not happened yet as though they already happened.
Like the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world and the prophets blood shed from the foundation of the world.
When God calls a person according to their heart condition He will work with them to get them to the truth, but they have make the choice to accept the truth for God's kingdom is love, but they would not accept the truth if God did not intervene in their life for no good thing dwells in the flesh.
Which the truth is to allow the Spirit to lead them to be Christlike which not all people do but love sin making excuses.
But who twisted their arm to sin.
They could have chosen not to sin so what is the excuse.
If the world is in trouble for their sins how are they going to get away with it.
They know God does not want them to sin.
Heb 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
Heb 10:27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
They sin on purpose but then want an excuse they cannot stop it holding on to sin.
But then the blood of Christ cannot wash it away.
Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.
Samuel.. man only sees flesh .. God sees the heart. This applies to every human. God so loved the world.. Go into all the world "He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation." Man I remember at what 12y old or so "how can you send all these people to hell" He said "For God so loved the world.... every one has a choice". At that age I had no clue it had to be.. if from God be in His word go in line with His word. And that did!
I know who He was talking to but to just read Him saying "if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains" Most of this world is blind. Its that blindness so to speak Satan is focusing on. Where they know to do good they do evil.. that which was called good is not evil. Its not Christians leaving the faith its this world so to speak pushing everything that is GOD out... so always time to look up.. He is coming
I know who He was talking to but to just read Him saying "if you were blind you would have no sin. You say you see your sin remains" Most of this world is blind. Its that blindness so to speak Satan is focusing on. Where they know to do good they do evil.. that which was called good is not evil. Its not Christians leaving the faith its this world so to speak pushing everything that is GOD out... so always time to look up.. He is coming
The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians ch 2 v 14
Let's see if Mag will make an art panel with THAT!
Yours appears to be the Calvinist view of election which is rooted in a misunderstanding of the concept as Scripture presents it.
In other words, you might as well debate which of the Moslem views of election is correct.
Fruit is the evidence of the indwelling Holy Spirit, but it must accompany the individual’s testimony of salvation. Neither by itself is sufficient to determine whether one is saved, and you should be far more concerned about whether people are saved than whether they are “elect”.
Specifically, this was a warning against false prophets: people who claim to be teachers but do not have the Spirit of God in them. This is the analogy used. This is not about all believers, per se, because no fruit is expected from a young tree and all believers start out as babies in Christ. Only mature trees bear fruit. Those who claim to be prophets should bear fruit and by that you should know that their words are reliable.
Do you know of any tares who became wheat? Any goats become sheep in the Bible?
Creation teaches us that each thing is after its own kind. Jesus never spoke of changing goats to sheep. Rather, He came to seek and to save the lost sheep.