The book of Job
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Are you saying the three friends knew that Job had secretly sinned in his heart? That sounds like the very height of arrogance. No wonder God totally rebuked them.
It is becoming painfully obvious you either cannot or will not provide any answer. Do you know why?
How does what James says about Job comport with your independent interpretation of the book of Job?
Considering your extensive analysis and extended commentary about the book of Job, it would seem this would be a fairly easy question for you to answer.
Also, Why does James provide Job as an example in his epistle to the believers James is writing to?
Your responses have offered next to nothing regarding the substance of these queries.
What say you?
I never said any such thing. The following is some of the words of the friends.
The following is some of what Eliphaz said
Job 4:4 Thy words have upholden him that was falling, and thou hast strengthened the feeble knees.
Job 4:5 But now it is come upon thee, and thou faintest; it toucheth thee, and thou art troubled.
Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Job 5:8 I would seek unto God, and unto God would I commit my cause:
Job 5:9 Which doeth great things and unsearchable; marvellous things without number:
Job 5:13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong. (Paul quoted this verse.)
Job 5:17 Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:
Job 5:26 Thou shalt come to thy grave in a full age, like as a shock of corn cometh in in his season.
Job 5:27 Lo this, we have searched it, so it is; hear it, and know thou it for thy good.
The following is some of what Bildad said
Job 8:9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow
Job 8:20 Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:
Job 8:21 Till he fill thy mouth with laughing, and thy lips with rejoicing.
Job 8:22 They that hate thee shall be clothed with shame; and the dwelling place of the wicked shall come to nought.
The following is some of what Zophar said
Job 11:2 Should not the multitude of words be answered? and should a man full of talk be justified?
Job 11:3 Should thy lies make men hold their peace? and when thou mockest, shall no man make thee ashamed?
Job 11:14 If iniquity be in thine hand, put it far away, and let not wickedness dwell in thy tabernacles.
Job 11:15 For then shalt thou lift up thy face without spot; yea, thou shalt be stedfast, and shalt not fear:
Job 11:16 Because thou shalt forget thy misery, and remember it as waters that pass away:
Job 11:17 And thine age shall be clearer than the noonday; thou shalt shine forth, thou shalt be as the morning.
Job 11:18 And thou shalt be secure, because there is hope; yea, thou shalt dig about thee, and thou shalt take thy rest in safety.
Job 11:19 Also thou shalt lie down, and none shall make thee afraid; yea, many shall make suit unto thee.
I answered you. It is only one verse. It sounds like you want me to embellish that verse. I don't believe in adding to the word, it should speak for itself.
You did not answer the questions. Do you know why?
How does what James says about Job comport with your independent interpretation of the book of Job?
And:
Why does James provide Job as an example in his epistle to the believers James is writing to?
My bible does not need interpretation for it is written in English. The translators did the interpretation. James provides Job as an example of enduring with patience to the end that they might be saved.
Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
Oh, so you are saying that no one accused Job of sin except for you.I never said any such thing. The following is some of the words of the friends.
The following is some of what Eliphaz said
Job 4:4 Thy words have upholden him that was falling, and thou hast strengthened the feeble knees.
Job 4:5 But now it is come upon thee, and thou faintest; it toucheth thee, and thou art troubled.
Job 4:17 Shall mortal man be more just than God? shall a man be more pure than his maker?
Job 5:8 I would seek unto God, and unto God would I commit my cause:
Job 5:9 Which doeth great things and unsearchable; marvellous things without number:
Job 5:13 He taketh the wise in their own craftiness: and the counsel of the froward is carried headlong. (Paul quoted this verse.)
Job 5:17 Behold, happy is the man whom God correcteth: therefore despise not thou the chastening of the Almighty:
Job 5:26 Thou shalt come to thy grave in a full age, like as a shock of corn cometh in in his season.
Job 5:27 Lo this, we have searched it, so it is; hear it, and know thou it for thy good.
The following is some of what Bildad said
Job 8:9 (For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow
Job 8:20 Behold, God will not cast away a perfect man, neither will he help the evil doers:
Job 8:21 Till he fill thy mouth with laughing, and thy lips with rejoicing.
Job 8:22 They that hate thee shall be clothed with shame; and the dwelling place of the wicked shall come to nought.
The following is some of what Zophar said
Job 11:2 Should not the multitude of words be answered? and should a man full of talk be justified?
Job 11:3 Should thy lies make men hold their peace? and when thou mockest, shall no man make thee ashamed?
Job 11:14 If iniquity be in thine hand, put it far away, and let not wickedness dwell in thy tabernacles.
Job 11:15 For then shalt thou lift up thy face without spot; yea, thou shalt be stedfast, and shalt not fear:
Job 11:16 Because thou shalt forget thy misery, and remember it as waters that pass away:
Job 11:17 And thine age shall be clearer than the noonday; thou shalt shine forth, thou shalt be as the morning.
Job 11:18 And thou shalt be secure, because there is hope; yea, thou shalt dig about thee, and thou shalt take thy rest in safety.
Job 11:19 Also thou shalt lie down, and none shall make thee afraid; yea, many shall make suit unto thee.
Now it appears you are beginning to answer the questions! Excellent.
So you write that Job is an example of enduring with patience. In other of your writings, you claim Job is "lost".
So why would James use Job as an example to his brethren and fellow followers of Christ Jesus who are not "lost"?
Job wasn't an example until he repented and put on God's righteousness in lieu of his own righteousness. That occurred in chapter 42.
Rom 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge. (Exactly what God said about Job.)
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. (This is what the spirit said, this is what Elihu said, and what God said. Job was exalting his own righteousness above God's.)
Job had a zeal for God, but it was without knowledge, and this is why God said to Job, will you condemn me that you might be righteous.
Post #672 "Of course there was hidden sin, and it is called pride. Why else would God ask Job if he was going to make a covenant with the King over all the children of pride, and take him for a servant forever? "
Post #500 "If you believe breaking any of the ten commandments is sin, then my answer would have to be yes. Job sinned when his pride led him to exalt himself above God, and that didn't just start after the testing."
reneweddaybyday said:
You are free to believe "Job had a problem with pride" ... even though what God tells you Job was not what you claim.
Please allow others to believe exactly what God said about Job ... what will it take for you to believe what God says about Job?
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
Have you ever considered that the "king over all the children of pride" has you hoodwinked?
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That isn't what the verse says, tttallison.
The verse says Will he [leviathan] make a covenant with thee?
My response has not changed since what has been posted by me previously. See these replies to you concerning this issue:
You are free to believe "Job had a problem with pride" ... even though what God tells you Job was not what you claim.
Please allow others to believe exactly what God said about Job ... what will it take for you to believe what God says about Job?
Job 1:1 There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job; and that man was perfect and upright, and one that feared God, and eschewed evil.
Job 1:8 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?
Job 2:3 And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.
Ezekiel 14:14 Though these three men, Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, they should deliver but their own souls by their righteousness, saith the Lord GOD.
Ezekiel 14:20 Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, saith the Lord GOD, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness.
James 5:11 Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.
Have you ever considered that the "king over all the children of pride" has you hoodwinked?
.
You have three verses, two in the first chapter, and one in the second chapter all saying the same thing, that Job was upright, and those three verses were all associated with the first test. Then you have the second test, and then silence from God. There is no well done my good and faithful servant. Then Job curses, and tells us that he desires to be free from his master.
Then we have the three friends who Job declares God sent to be witnesses against him. Then for twenty five chapters the potsherd and his three potsherd friends strive with one another.
Then Elihu, who Job had requested to intervene between him and God, declares Job guilty of declaring his righteousness greater than God's righteousness.
Then God admonishes Job for four chapters for striving with him. One of those chapters is devoted to the attributes of Satan.
Then Job realizes God knew the intents of his heart, repents, his eyes are opened, and Job becomes a member of the family of God.
Nothing complicated.
In your opinion, are the people James is writing to in his epistle also "lost" like Job?
What kind of crazy question is that?
You believe Eliphaz lied, you believe Bildad lied, you believe Zophar lied, you believe Elihu lied, you believe Job was so confused he didn't know what he was saying, and you believe God really didn't mean what He said.
It is a simple question. James says that Job is an example of a prophet who spoke in the name of the Lord and suffered affliction with patience because of it.
You on the other hand say that Job suffered because of pride.
So how do you reconcile your interpretation with James?
what you call "the second test" was not over at Job 2:7. Job's suffering continued until God responded to Job in chapter 38.
what you call "the second test" began when satan smote Job with sore boils from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head.
Then we have Job's "friends" (Job called them "miserable comforters" - Job 16:2). They were well-meaning, but they were of the same mindset you apparently have ... that Job was suffering due to some sort of sin on his part for which he needed to repent (according to you, his sin was "pride" ... or some sort of sin in his heart).
When God finally spoke to Job in chapter 38, Job had been continuously asking to speak to God. When God finally spoke to him, that was the end of God lowering His hedge from around Job.
r-i-g-h-t ... there was only God having Job perform the duties of priest in offering sacrifice on behalf of Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar and praying for them.
chapter and verse, please.
chapter and verse, please.
what you need to understand when reading the discussions between Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu is that they all started off with a false premise ... i.e. that it was God who afflicted Job. None of them knew Job suffered at the hand of satan. You know because God told you ... that much you believe.
But what you do not believe even though God told you ... there was no cause in Job. satan did what he did because that is who satan is. satan absolutely hates everything God holds dear ... mankind ... and especially those who are upright, reverence God, and eschew evil. If not for the restraint God placed upon satan, he would have killed Job.
We have the privilege of living in a time when satan has been fully exposed for who and what he is ... so when satan approaches ... seeking whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8) ... we have exceeding great and precious promises to hold to, knowing that we are not alone in suffering affliction (1 Peter 5:9), and as we suffer a while, God is working within to perfect, establish, strengthen, and settle us (1 Peter 5:10).
Job did not request Elihu to be a daysman between himself and God.
Job requested a daysman "that might lay his hand upon us both" (Job 9:33) ... and no human is able to "lay his hand" on God. Job knew Elihu could not place a hand and Job and a hand on God. Job knew that what he requested was an impossibility.
That Elihu responded that he was according to [Job's] wish (Job 33:6) ... in God's place ... not as the "daysman" Job requested.
Elihu was just like Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar in that he spoke some profound truths ... but Elihu was also just like Elphaz, Bildad, Zophar in his belief that Job had unrepented sin for which he was punished by God. However, we know that is not the case. We know Job suffered at the hand of satan for no fault of his own.
Job did not know God was speaking of satan ... Job was familiar with a mighty creature referred to as "leviathan". Job believed God was referring to leviathan (about which we in our day and time know nothing). I do not believe God ever revealed to Job that he had suffered at the hand of satan.
Job was already a believer. How many times must someone "become a member of the family of God" before he or she really, truly "becomes a member of the family of God" ???
Instead of re-writing what the Author of Scripture has written ... why not just believe what He wrote.
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God had far more to say about Job than the single verse in James, so how do you reconcile what God said about Job when God said Job was striving with God, instructing God, and reproving God. Also God insinuated that Job was making a contract with the King of Pride.
God also insinuated that Job was condemning God so that Job might be righteous. You really haven't addressed hardly any of my questions properly.