Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

[brightfame52]

According to Ephesians 1, when does the believer receive the Spirit? After or before you believed?

It doesnt say. The person is sealed by the Spirit when they believe, but they were regenerated b4 they believed else they could not Spiritually hear the word of Truth. In order to spiritually hear, Jesus says you must be of God already Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

So those Ephesians had to be already of God [saved/regenerated] in order to hear the Gospel of their salvation, the word of truth.

 

[Anchorite]

You can tell who has the Spirit of Christ and who does not, by how they respond to those who disagree with them.

The true Christian will reply politely.

The fake Christian will insult, engage in personal attacks, call you clueless, say you don’t understand, get angry, express a superior attitude, mock you, claim you don’t know what you’re talking about, and act like they have all the answers.

 

[John146]

Maybe you didn’t see my question earlier.

Why do some hear the Word. Believe, and receive it, and others hear and reject it?

The same reason Paul kicked against the pricks. The same reason most people, myself included, do not believe the gospel the first time hearing. Sometimes, the soil is so hard, it takes time to loosen. Some, have so been indoctrinated by other beliefs (blinded by Satan) that God hands them over.

 

[John146]

You dont know what the Gospel is, I can see that already, and you wouldnt know how to answer someone if they asked you the question the Jailor asked Paul in Acts 16

1 Corinthians 15:3-4. Simply put.

 

[John146]

Per Calvinism-

God requires saving faith from everyone,

Come on silly. Man must believe the gospel, but it's not really man who believes but God wills that man to believe. So, when scripture states to believe, you have to know it's not talking about man believing, because man is not capable of believing on his own, it is God forcing that man to believe...round and round we go. And if you say anything against it, you must think that you are able to save yourself and that you are God. Ridiculous.

 

[John146]

It is foolishness to the lost/them that perish 1 Cor 1:18

18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

And generally them that perish are unbelievers. So that poster seems to have more wisdom than you in the scriptures.

Actually, the poster stated that it is foolishness to preach to unbelievers.

 

[Roger316]

Is this correct or did you mean to say that regeneration precede belief?

Thanks. Yes. I meant to say that regeneration precedes belief.

These poor eyes are tired.

Is there a scripture where God regenerates a person which includes sanctification btw (according to the meaning of the word) prior to belief?

The most immediate passage is found in John 3, where Jesus explains that Nicodemus was able to recognize the kingdom of God because he was born again.

Also please show where scripture clearly speaks of a new heart first so that a person believes?

The Scriptures teach with remarkable consistency that God Himself supplies the heart that believes. In the Old Testament, Ezekiel declares that God removes the “heart of stone” and gives a “heart of flesh,” placing His Spirit within His people so that they will walk in His ways (Ezek. 36:26–27). Ezekiel 11:19–20 repeats the same pattern, and Jeremiah 24:7 makes the purpose explicit: “I will give them a heart to know Me.” The ability to trust and obey God is not native to fallen humanity; it is the result of God’s creative, regenerating act. The New Testament intensifies this truth. Jesus teaches that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws him (John 6:44) and that only those whom the Father gives to the Son will believe (John 6:37). In John 3, the new birth is the necessary precondition for seeing or entering the kingdom—the Spirit must give life before faith can arise. Paul echoes this when he says that God shines light “in our hearts” to give the knowledge of Christ (2 Cor. 4:6) and that God “made us alive together with Christ” (Eph. 2:5). Across both Testaments, the logic is unified and unmistakable: regeneration precedes and produces faith. God creates the believing heart, and our faith is the evidence of His prior, life‑giving work.

 

[John146]

It doesnt say. The person is sealed by the Spirit when they believe, but they were regenerated b4 they believed else they could not Spiritually hear the word of Truth. In order to spiritually hear, Jesus says you must be of God already Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

So those Ephesians had to be already of God [saved/regenerated] in order to hear the Gospel of their salvation, the word of truth.

Did the disciples have the Spirit before Pentecost? Did they hear the words of Jesus?

 

[Magenta]

Actually, the poster stated that it is foolishness to preach to unbelievers.

Who said that? I think you misrepresent.

1 Corinthians 1 v 18

 

[Magenta]

Did the disciples have the Spirit before Pentecost? Did they hear the words of Jesus?

Matthew 16 verses 15-17 ~ What about you?” Jesus asked. “Who do you say I am?” Simon Peter answered, “You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.” Jesus replied, “Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For this was not revealed to you by flesh and blood, but by My Father in heaven.

 

[brightfame52]

1 Corinthians 15:3-4. Simply put.

You dont know what that means, there are over 100 cults that will appeal to that scripture, and you will get 100 different interpretions

 

[brightfame52]

Did the disciples have the Spirit before Pentecost? Did they hear the words of Jesus?

Jn 8:47

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God.

 

[HeIsHere]

Come on silly. Man must believe the gospel, but it's not really man who believes but God wills that man to believe. So, when scripture states to believe, you have to know it's not talking about man believing, because man is not capable of believing on his own, it is God forcing that man to believe...round and round we go. And if you say anything against it, you must think that you are able to save yourself and that you are God. Ridiculous.

Sometimes it is heard to believe we actually have to dispute this doctrine/false soteriology, it is so on its face un-biblical.

I often wonder what it must be like for them to pray for the salvation of a loved one, friend, co worker, stranger or relative knowing the person might not be on the list, Christ Jesus did not die for that person.

That cannot be a pray based faith at all!!!

I also always think of the psychology/temperament of such a person who thinks they were specially created/elected for salvation while others were not, it must be something.

 

[lrs68]

I dont believe you know what you talking about.

I don't believe you know how to tell the truth.

 

[Magenta]

I also always think of the psychology/temperament of such a person who thinks they were
specially created/elected for salvation while others were not, it must be something.

You believe yourself so special you reject that God is necessary in the process of coming to believe.

Even though Scripture makes plain the opposite. Your new age belief is that people have evolved.

 

[dkontner]

1 Corinthians 8​

1 Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2 And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3 But if any man love God, the same is known of him.

 

[Magenta]

Isaiah 55 v 10-11 Just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it.

 

[HeIsHere]

2 Thess 2:13

13 But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
1 Pet 1:2

2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience/faith and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

That was not written to "you" drop your western egocentric interpretation and read in context.....

Paul’s context, to thank God for his Gentile audience being chosen, or engrafted (Rom. 11:13-24), to salvation through faith.
This is the mystery which had been hidden for generations which is just now being made known through teachers Paul (Eph. 3:1-11).

 

[HeIsHere]

Thanks. Yes. I meant to say that regeneration precedes belief.

These poor eyes are tired.

The most immediate passage is found in John 3, where Jesus explains that Nicodemus was able to recognize the kingdom of God because he was born again.

The Scriptures teach with remarkable consistency that God Himself supplies the heart that believes. In the Old Testament, Ezekiel declares that God removes the “heart of stone” and gives a “heart of flesh,” placing His Spirit within His people so that they will walk in His ways (Ezek. 36:26–27). Ezekiel 11:19–20 repeats the same pattern, and Jeremiah 24:7 makes the purpose explicit: “I will give them a heart to know Me.” The ability to trust and obey God is not native to fallen humanity; it is the result of God’s creative, regenerating act. The New Testament intensifies this truth. Jesus teaches that no one can come to Him unless the Father draws him (John 6:44) and that only those whom the Father gives to the Son will believe (John 6:37). In John 3, the new birth is the necessary precondition for seeing or entering the kingdom—the Spirit must give life before faith can arise. Paul echoes this when he says that God shines light “in our hearts” to give the knowledge of Christ (2 Cor. 4:6) and that God “made us alive together with Christ” (Eph. 2:5). Across both Testaments, the logic is unified and unmistakable: regeneration precedes and produces faith. God creates the believing heart, and our faith is the evidence of His prior, life‑giving work.

Was this before Ezekiel was a believer?

So sanctification precedes justification?

 

[HeIsHere]

Actually, the poster stated that it is foolishness to preach to unbelievers.

That is their argument(total inability) >>>>> a person needs to be gifted belief and then they can respond positively/believe the Good News, otherwise they only reject the Good News.

Oh that seems logical..