The book of Job

[tttallison]

what you call "the second test" was not over at Job 2:7. Job's suffering continued until God responded to Job in chapter 38.

what you call "the second test" began when satan smote Job with sore boils from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head.


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The second test was over when Job didn't bless God.

Surely you have seen how the two tests were laid out identical verse for verse except where there was a change. God wanted us to observe the change. Job blessed God after the first test, but after the second test Job did not bless God, nor did God praise Job as God had done after the first test. You can pretend you don't see it, but it is still there.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

tttallison ... you and I are not even close to coming to agreement concerning the Book of Job.


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[ZNP]

God had far more to say about Job than the single verse in James, so how do you reconcile what God said about Job when God said Job was striving with God, instructing God, and reproving God. Also God insinuated that Job was making a contract with the King of Pride.

God also insinuated that Job was condemning God so that Job might be righteous. You really haven't addressed hardly any of my questions properly.

THE ORIGINAL PRIESTHOOD.pdf

drive.google.com

The_Seven_Seals_of_the_New_Testament (1).pdf

drive.google.com

 

[DavidLamb]

Where did I say that? Notice how all three of Job's friends predicted Job's outcome.

Job's final outcome is predicted in these verses:

(Job 19:25) For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;
(Job 19:26) And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God,
(Job 19:27) Whom I shall see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!

Where did all three of Job's friends predict that?

 

[tttallison]

tttallison ... you and I are not even close to coming to agreement concerning the Book of Job.


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That is OK.

 

[christophernyc]

God had far more to say about Job than the single verse in James, so how do you reconcile what God said about Job when God said Job was striving with God, instructing God, and reproving God. Also God insinuated that Job was making a contract with the King of Pride.

God also insinuated that Job was condemning God so that Job might be righteous. You really haven't addressed hardly any of my questions properly.

You appear to be hiding from the question. Why do you think you are doing that?

You have used a lot of other Scripture which does not mention Job and extrapolated an application to Job and his ordeal. Then when other Scripture is pointed out to you which explicitly mentions Job *by name*, you somehow become conspicuously quiet and reluctant to address them.

Do you know why you do that?

 

[tttallison]

Job's final outcome is predicted in these verses:

(Job 19:25) For I know that my Redeemer lives, And He shall stand at last on the earth;
(Job 19:26) And after my skin is destroyed, this I know, That in my flesh I shall see God,
(Job 19:27) Whom I shall see for myself, And my eyes shall behold, and not another. How my heart yearns within me!

Where did all three of Job's friends predict that?

They didn't, and Job was right. That being said you have to remember what God said. God said Job 38:2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?

Next you have to consider what Job said. Job knew he couldn't redeem himself, therefore it would be up to God to do it, but then that doesn't make a lot of sense, in that Job didn't consider God trustworthy, because Job said, -----

Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent. Job also said, Job 9:24The earth is given into the hand of the wicked: he covereth the faces of the judges thereof; if not, where, and who is he? Job also said, Job 9:2 I know it is so of a truth: but how should man be just with God?

So we can see from these verses that while Job believed God was going to redeem him, Job was mistaken about why God would redeem him. It is also obvious that Job did not have a personal relationship with God, or Job wouldn't have asked who God was, in Job 9:24.

Job, in his pride, believed his own righteousness was good enough to earn him his salvation. Job said, Job 13:14 Wherefore do I take my flesh in my teeth, and put my life in mine hand? Job 13:15 Though he slay me, yet will I trust in him: but I will maintain mine own ways before him. Job says he will trust God, but it will be his way. The indication is that Job thought his own righteousness or goodness will earn him his redemption.

Job says he will be justified. Job 13:18 Behold now, I have ordered my cause; I know that I shall be justified. Job said, Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.

We know ones righteousness can never redeem him. We know that only God’s righteousness can redeem us. Job had diminished God’s righteousness when he said God would laugh at the trial of the innocent. We also know that Job’s heart did reproach him, when Job said he was vile.

In Job 13:18 Job said he ordered his cause. It is a judicial term. Job has laid out his case for his trial. The problem for Job is he doesn’t trust God to be fair, so he asked for a man such as himself to judicate his case. A person to stand between him and God. Job called that person a daysman.

Job requires two things from God, in order for Job to participate in his trial. One is that God withdraws his hand from Job (Found in Job 13:21) and Let him take his rod away from me (Found in Job 9:34) and two is let not thy dread make me afraid (Found in Job:13:21) and let not his fear terrify me: (Found in Job 9:22)

Elihu was God’s answer to Job, and also the reason Job kept his mouth shut.

 

[christophernyc]

God had far more to say about Job than the single verse in James, so how do you reconcile what God said about Job when God said Job was striving with God, instructing God, and reproving God. Also God insinuated that Job was making a contract with the King of Pride.

God also insinuated that Job was condemning God so that Job might be righteous. You really haven't addressed hardly any of my questions properly.

So how does your independent interpretation of the book of Job comport with the theme of suffering in James's epistle to his brethren and fellow believers? He mentions Job in one verse, and it is in conjunction with the larger, overall theme he is addressingr, namely suffering.

So why would James use Job as an example of suffering to believers?

Why?

And what does it imply?

 

[tttallison]

So how does your independent interpretation of the book of Job comport with the theme of suffering in James's epistle to his brethren and fellow believers? He mentions Job in one verse, and it is in conjunction with the larger, overall theme he is addressingr, namely suffering.

So why would James use Job as an example of suffering to believers?

Why?

And what does it imply?

You should start a thread on the book of James.

Job was suffering because of his pride. The book of James does not address pride, but the book of Isaiah does.

Isa 45:8-12 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.

Job 3:1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.

Job 40:2-7 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

 

[christophernyc]

You should start a thread on the book of James.

Job was suffering because of his pride. The book of James does not address pride, but the book of Isaiah does.

Isa 45:8-12 Drop down, ye heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the LORD have created it. Woe unto him that striveth with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashioneth it, What makest thou? or thy work, He hath no hands? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth? Woe unto him that saith unto his father, What begettest thou? or to the woman, What hast thou brought forth?Thus saith the LORD, the Holy One of Israel, and his Maker, Ask me of things to come concerning my sons, and concerning the work of my hands command ye me.I have made the earth, and created man upon it: I, even my hands, have stretched out the heavens, and all their host have I commanded.

Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.

Job 3:1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.

Job 40:2-7 Shall he that contendeth with the Almighty instruct him? he that reproveth God, let him answer it.Gird up now thy loins like a man; for I will demand of thee, and answer thou me. Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth? declare, if thou hast understanding.Who hath laid the measures thereof, if thou knowest? or who hath stretched the line upon it? Whereupon are the foundations thereof fastened? or who laid the corner stone thereof; When the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy?

Instead of answering the question, you have retreated into one of your talking points, again.

Are you afraid to answer the question?

Why would James use Job as an example of suffering to believers?

If you cannot address everything the Bible says about Job, then your interpretation of the book of Job is lacking. It's incomplete.

Maybe include the other Bible passages about Job into your interpretation and reconsider your current view? You could try it, at least.

 

[tttallison]

Instead of answering the question, you have retreated into one of your talking points, again.

Are you afraid to answer the question?

Why would James use Job as an example of suffering to believers?

If you cannot address everything the Bible says about Job, then your interpretation of the book of Job is lacking. It's incomplete.

Maybe include the other Bible passages about Job into your interpretation and reconsider your current view? You could try it, at least.

OK! I will answer you again even if you don’t answer me.​

First look at the people James is speaking to. They are Jews, who like Job were rich. They are described in the first few verses of James 5.

Jas 5:1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped downyour fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

Sure seems like he is referring to Job.​

Jas 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Must be referring to Elihu as the judge​

It sounds like James is telling his brethren that though they lived like Job in wealth they better get their hearts right because the Lord is coming. They must have been a motley bunch.

That is my take from it.​

 

[christophernyc]

First look at the people James is speaking to.

Yes, let's look at the people whom James is addressing in his letter. He states it 15 different times.

James 1:2,3
Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that *the testing of your faith* produces endurance.

James 1:16
Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.

James 1:19
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger.

James 2:1
My brethren, do not hold *your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ* with an attitude of personal favoritism.

James 2:5
Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

James 2:14
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

James 3:1
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

James 3:10
from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.

James 3:12
Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.

James 4:11
Do not speak against one another, brethren.

James 5:7
Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.

James 5:9
Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged.

James 5:10
As an example, brethren, of suffering and patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord.

James 5:12
But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath.

James 5:19,20
My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

What makes them his brethren? Their shared faith in Jesus Christ. James is discipling fellow believers through his letter. He is encouraging them in to how to grow in their faith, and in how to remain steadfast in their faith.

 

[christophernyc]

First look at the people James is speaking to. They are Jews, who like Job were rich. They are described in the first few verses of James 5.​

Writing to those who are rich does not automatically mean all of them were rich. How would you even know that every single one of them was rich like Job? He is singling out those who are rich. Why would you think it automatically applied to all of them?

Jas 5:1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you. Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten. Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days. Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped downyour fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth. Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter. Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.

Sure seems like he is referring to Job.​

Actually, James is referring to Job when he is referring to Job.

James 5:11
We count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord’s dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.

Nothing in James 5:1-6 correlates with Job's character. We know this from God's testimony of him in chapters 1 & 2, and we know it from chapter 29, for instance, when Job recalls his life with God prior to his ordeal.

When James is referring to Job, it's when he is referring to Job.

 

[christophernyc]

Jas 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Must be referring to Elihu as the judge​

Um...the verse in Greek is Strong's #2692 "kurios" which means "God, Lord, master". The only God, Lord and master in the book of Job is Yahweh, the Lord God.

 

[christophernyc]

It sounds like James is telling his brethren that though they lived like Job in wealth they better get their hearts right because the Lord is coming. They must have been a motley bunch.​

James makes absolutely no connection between the rich people he describes and the character of Job. To claim otherwise is just a wild extrapolation.

When James *does* mention Job, as well as the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord, it is to encourage his brethren in their faith in Jesus Christ.

James 5:10,11
As an example, brethren, of suffering and patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord. We count those blessed who endured. You have heard of the endurance of Job and have seen the outcome of the Lord’s dealings, that the Lord is full of compassion and is merciful.

 

[christophernyc]

That is my take from it.​

Did you just recently come up with this explanation about what James wrote about Job? Or are these ideas ones you’ve had prior to your these questions to you about it?

 

[tttallison]

Yes, let's look at the people whom James is addressing in his letter. He states it 15 different times.

James 1:2,3
Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that *the testing of your faith* produces endurance.

James 1:16
Do not be deceived, my beloved brethren.

James 1:19
This you know, my beloved brethren. But everyone must be quick to hear, slow to speak and slow to anger.

James 2:1
My brethren, do not hold *your faith in our glorious Lord Jesus Christ* with an attitude of personal favoritism.

James 2:5
Listen, my beloved brethren: did not God choose the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him?

James 2:14
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

James 3:1
Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment.

James 3:10
from the same mouth come both blessing and cursing. My brethren, these things ought not to be this way.

James 3:12
Can a fig tree, my brethren, produce olives, or a vine produce figs? Nor can salt water produce fresh.

James 4:11
Do not speak against one another, brethren.

James 5:7
Therefore be patient, brethren, until the coming of the Lord.

James 5:9
Do not complain, brethren, against one another, so that you yourselves may not be judged.

James 5:10
As an example, brethren, of suffering and patience, take the prophets who spoke in the name of the Lord.

James 5:12
But above all, my brethren, do not swear, either by heaven or by earth or with any other oath.

James 5:19,20
My brethren, if any among you strays from the truth and one turns him back, 20 let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way will save his soul from death and will cover a multitude of sins.

What makes them his brethren? Their shared faith in Jesus Christ. James is discipling fellow believers through his letter. He is encouraging them in to how to grow in their faith, and in how to remain steadfast in their faith.

No! What makes them brethren is their tribal affiliation.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Jas 5:1 Go to now, ye rich men, weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.

Notice how what James says is similar to what Eliphaz said.

James------Jas 1:9 Let the brother of low degree rejoice in that he is exalted: Jas 1:10 But the rich, in that he is made low: because as the flower of the grass he shall pass away.

Eliphaz-------Job 5:11To set up on high those that be low; that those which mourn may be exalted to safety.

 

[christophernyc]

No! What makes them brethren is their tribal affiliation.

Jas 1:1 James, a servant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, to the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad, greeting.

Sure, there is tribal affiliation. Of course. But what is the primary thing that bonds James with his brethren the most?

James 1:2,3
Consider it all joy, my brethren, when you encounter various trials, knowing that the testing of your faith produces endurance.

Right out of the gate in his letter, James zeroes in on their *faith*. He is writing to believers in Christ Jesus. Just like Job who was a man of faith in God whose faith was tested, so, too, these new believers James writes to would have their faith tested.

Here are some references I just found on Biblehub.com: https://biblehub.com/q/Why_address_twelve_tribes_in_Dispersion.htm

Persecution after Stephen’s martyrdom (Acts 8:1, 4; 11:19) drove many Jerusalem believers into Judea, Samaria, and beyond. As their former pastor, James writes to shepherd them.

James addresses “the twelve tribes in the Dispersion” because his readers are Jewish followers of the Messiah scattered throughout the Greco-Roman world, heirs of covenant promises, and participants in the prophesied ingathering of Israel. The phrase roots the epistle in concrete history, reinforces covenant continuity, and frames its exhortations within a redemptive narrative that stretches from patriarchal origins to the imminent return of Christ.

Pilgrims converted at Pentecost (Acts 2:5-11) had returned to Cappadocia, Cyrene, Mesopotamia, and Rome. James’ circular letter could be read aloud in their synagogues, offering authoritative instruction.

Addressing “the twelve tribes” signals that messianic faith does not abolish Jewish heritage but fulfills it.

 

[tttallison]

Um...the verse in Greek is Strong's #2692 "kurios" which means "God, Lord, master". The only God, Lord and master in the book of Job is Yahweh, the Lord God.

I cannot figure out your point here, can you explain your meaning?

 

[christophernyc]

I cannot figure out your point here, can you explain your meaning?

Yes. I should have clarified better, and I used the word “verse” when I should have used “word”.

You wrote:

Jas 5:8 Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh. Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door.

Must be referring to Elihu as the judge

The end of this verse says, “…the judge standeth before the door.” That word “judge” is the Greek word “kurios” Strong’s #2692 which means “God, Lord, master."

You had suggested this “must be referring to Elihu as the judge”, but the point I was making is that there is only *one* God, Lord, and master in the book of Job. The only God, Lord and master in Job is the Lord God, Yahweh.

Consider other translations of James 5:8:

King James Bible Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.

NASB You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

ASV Be ye also patient; establish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

ESV You also, be patient. Establish your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand.

Elihu is not the Judge, nor is he God, the Lord, or the master. In court terms, Elihu is a Prosecutor. Additionally, he is a persecutor and an accuser of the brethren.