Election by God Is According to His will, not man’s Will to believe

[GWH]

Scripture’s warnings against apostasy do not imply that every believer stands in real danger of falling away; they simply reveal the true consequences of abandoning Christ. Warnings introduce contingency, not inevitability. At the same time, Scripture teaches that God’s saving work in the regenerate heart forecloses final apostasy: the Spirit seals, preserves, and ensures perseverance. Thus the warnings function as one of God’s appointed means to keep His people faithful. They are real threats that produce real endurance, not predictions that the elect may be lost. God secures the end by securing the means.

Well, real danger is akin to real possibility, which becomes less as believers learn more of GW and grow spiritually toward maturity or remaining filled with the HS.

 

[Melach]

i will say this once more because everyone of you already believe in God's decree and election if you believe God knows the future:

exhaustive foreknowledge equals everything is predestined to occur as it does. people often give examples like "watching a football game thats been recorded doesnt mean you caused the result you just knew the outcome" but this example is faulty because we are talking about God. when God chose to create, knowing all that will happen, its all gonna happen exactly how God knows it will happen meaning its predestined to occur as God knows it will. now you can say God just passively knew it and all the evil has no purpose or that it does indeed have a purpose.

the only way out of this is open theism, to deny God knows the future exhaustively and the future is open. which runs into a whole world of trouble with the book of revelation, daniel 2, joseph's dream and a whole lot of bible passages.

 

[brightfame52]

Actually, Noah had 3 sons and in the Hebrew the wives were like the Daughters of men from the lineage of Cain. Think about Nimrod from that lineage building the Tower of Babel. And then multiple that lineage when it was scattered abroad. Look at Abraham, great great grandson of Noah and his grandson Enoch. Even Abraham's father was an idol maker and worshipper.

You still making excuses. God destroyed man Gen 6

 

[brightfame52]

Actually, Noah had 3 sons and in the Hebrew the wives were like the Daughters of men from the lineage of Cain. Think about Nimrod from that lineage building the Tower of Babel. And then multiple that lineage when it was scattered abroad. Look at Abraham, great great grandson of Noah and his grandson Enoch. Even Abraham's father was an idol maker and worshipper.

You still making excuses. God destroyed man Gen 6

 

[HeIsHere]

I don't think in terms of Irresistible grace. That phrase has always bothered me.

The new birth is like Jesus healing a blind man. A blind man doesn’t debate whether he wants to see; the moment sight is given, he sees reality as it truly is. That is what God does in the born‑again event. He blesses a person with such deep spiritual clarity that Jesus’ identity is no longer a guess, a leap, or a wish—it becomes obvious. The person believes not because he must, and not because he worked up “faith,” but because once the eyes of the heart are opened, the truth of Christ is unmistakable. This is why the term “irresistible grace” is misleading. Grace isn’t something you fight against; it’s God giving sight to someone who could not see. And once you see, you don’t choose sight over blindness—you simply live in the light that has been given.

Think of it this way: before the new birth, the gospel is like sunlight to a blind man—real, bright, and life‑giving, but not yet perceived. When God gives new birth, He doesn’t coerce the will; He restores the capacity to see. Suddenly the beauty, authority, and truth of Jesus become evident. The person believes because the reality of Christ has become visible, not because he forced himself to trust. The new birth is God’s healing act, not our decision. It is the moment when God grants sight, and with sight comes conviction, clarity, and joy. Faith is simply the natural response of someone whose eyes have finally been opened.

Without scripture to support and exegeted correctly, using correct hermeneutics this just becomes your ideas not objective truth.

 

[HeIsHere]

When Peter says that God is “not wishing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance,” he is not making a philosophical statement about God’s universal intentions; he is explaining why Jesus has not yet returned. The delay is not evidence of divine slowness but of divine patience. Peter knows that history will contain countless people—far beyond his own generation—whom God will bring to repentance. From Peter’s vantage point, your repentance and mine were still future events, part of the long story God is weaving. God is waiting, not because He is uncertain, but because He is allowing every human story He intends to redeem to reach its appointed moment. The “all” refers to all those whose repentance lies ahead in the unfolding of history. Christ’s return is delayed so that the full number of those God is calling will, in fact, come. God is not slow; He is completing His narrative of mercy.

The bigger question for us is why God withholds his mercy from some people. In order to understand the profundity of this question, we need to review what mercy really is.

God’s mercy never rises from anything He finds in us; it rises entirely from who He is. Scripture insists that mercy is not a reaction to human worthiness but an expression of God’s sovereign freedom—“I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy.” Mercy, by definition, requires nothing from the pitied; it is goodness shown to those who have no claim, no leverage, and no prior qualification. The moment we imagine that God needed a reason to be merciful to us, we have smuggled merit back into grace. The truth is far more humbling and far more hopeful: God is merciful because He wills to be, and nothing outside of God can compel, limit, or justify His compassion. That is why He can have mercy on anyone He wants, and why no one is beyond the reach of His kindness.

This interpretation is not in line with audience relevance.

 

[Melach]

No, I believe GW teaching that God is loving and just, whereas you don't.

First, God loves and wants to save everyone. Scriptures teaching divine omnilove include: John 3:16, 1John 4:7-12, Rom. 5:8, Matt. 5:44&48, Gal. 5:6&14, Eph. 3:17b-19, Eph. 5:2 and 1Tim. 2:3-4. Christ died to show God’s love and the possible salvation of all (Rom. 5:6-8) including His enemies (ungodly, atheist, anti-Christ, heretics).

Second, God is just (2Thes. 1:6a, cf. Rom. 3:25-26 & 9:14, Deut. 32:4, Psa. 36:6, Luke 11:42, Rev. 15:3). Explanations of God’s Word should not impugn God’s justice and love for all people (Joel 2:13, John 3:16). This parameter is affirmed in the OT (Psa. 145:17): “The Lord is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.” Even the wrath of God is an expression of His love and justice.

TULIP teaches the opposite, thereby perverting the Gospel and warranting Paul's curse of heresy in Gal. 1:6-9.

are you sure about that? read galatians. those who pervert the gospel are the ones who teach salvation by the works of the law. this in no way lines up with the TULIP which teaches the opposite, that its ALL GOD

 

[Melach]

Non reformed people do not believe people save themselves, but unfortunately that is the false accusation required to protect TULIP.

She in fact responded positively to Christ Jesus, she placed her faith in HIM and He saved her.

Nowhere is it stated He gave her the faith/heart/life to respond positively which is a requirement in your soteriology.

but that is how it is in the bible.

take lydia as an example:

Acts 16:14 One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

 

[HeIsHere]

Many Christians instinctively define sanctification as the lifelong process of becoming a better person, so they assume it must follow justification. But the biblical word does not mean “moral improvement.” It comes from the Latin *sanctus* and the underlying Hebrew and Greek terms meaning set apart, claimed, or made holy in the sense of belonging to God. A sanctified person is not someone who has become ethically superior but someone whom God has marked out as His own. In Scripture, sanctification is first about status, not behavior—God choosing, claiming, and consecrating a people for Himself. When we use the biblical definition rather than the popular one, the order becomes clear: God sets apart a people, and *because* they are His, He brings them to faith and justifies them.

This is why Paul can say in Ephesians that God chose us “before the foundation of the world.” Sanctification—God’s act of setting apart a people for Himself—does not begin at conversion; it begins in God’s eternal purpose. He determined beforehand whom He would bless, call, and bring to life. That eternal act of setting apart is the root from which everything else grows: the new heart, the gift of faith, and the declaration of justification. In this sense, sanctification precedes justification because God’s choice to consecrate a people is what guarantees that they will one day believe. Moral transformation comes later as the fruit of belonging to God, not the essence of sanctification itself. Sanctification is God’s sovereign decision to claim a people; justification is His declaration over those whom He has already claimed.

I have not defined sanctification as moral improvement.

Ephesians is not talking about effectual predestination to salvation.

People are not elected from before the foundation of the world to be saved or damned.

That is the presupposition which needs to be rejected. Once you reject that presupposition, the passage makes so much more sense.

Who is the letter addressed to in verse 1?
The faithful in Christ Jesus.
So who is predestined to holiness, blamelessness, and adoption in verses 4 and 5?
The faithful in Christ Jesus.
This is further confirmed in verse 4 "For he chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world that we should be holy and blameless before him in love." He chose us in Christ before the foundation of the world. He didn't chose us to be in Christ.
He chose us who were already positionally in Christ because of our faithfulness, to be holy, blameless, and adopted.

Paul is not saying our faith is predestined, he is saying those who are faithful/in Christ are predestined.
All of those who are faithful in Christ, are predestined to be holy and blameless.

What I read again is eisegesis, by adding in God choosing specific people for salvation and leaving others sin

Sadly, you may be well versed in Reformed Theology and it may appeal to you because it provides a framework through which to understand the Bible ... but the framework is incorrect because it relies on reading into the text over and over again.

It is not biblical.

 

[HeIsHere]

but that is how it is in the bible.

take lydia as an example:

Acts 16:14 One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

Rather that deflect to another passage deal with the passage given.

 

[Magenta]

Sadly, you may be well versed in Reformed Theology and it may appeal to you because it provides a framework through which
to understand the Bible ... but the framework is incorrect because it relies on reading into the text over and over again.

That is true of what Pelagian heretics such as yourself do. There are zero verses articulating your
beloved free will, and many depicting the opposite of what you believe, while you outright deny
what is said in numerous places, and agree with those who rewrite the words of Jesus Christ Himself,
and blaspheme God. But you also blaspheme God rather than admit you are wrong.

 

[GWH]

are you sure about that? read galatians. those who pervert the gospel are the ones who teach salvation by the works of the law. this in no way lines up with the TULIP which teaches the opposite, that its ALL GOD

Both extremes are heretical/pervert the true Gospel, which can be summarized as "Accept Christ Jesus as Lord”
(as in Acts 16:31, 2Cor. 4:5 & Col. 2:6) or “Love Jesus as Messiah and Lord” (John 8:42), and can be elaborated as follows:

1. There is a/one all-loving and just Lord or God (Deut. 6:4, John 3:16, 2Thes. 1:6), who is both able (2Tim. 1:12) and willing (1Tim. 2:3-4, Ezek. 33:11) to provide all morally accountable human beings salvation or heaven—a wonderful life full of love, joy and peace forever.
2. Human beings are selfish or sinful (Rom. 3:23, 2Tim. 3:2-4, Col. 3:5), miserable (Gal. 5:19-21), and hopeless (Eph. 2:12) or hell-bound at the judgment (Matt. 23:33 & 25:46) when they reject God’s salvation (John 3:18, Rom. 2:5-11).
3. Jesus is God’s Messiah/Christ and incarnate Son, the way that God has chosen (John 3:16, Acts 16:30-31, Phil. 2:9-11) of providing salvation by means of his atoning death on the cross for the payment of the penalty for the sins of humanity (Rom. 3:22-25 & 5:9-11), followed by his resurrection to reign in heaven (1Cor. 15:14-28).
4. Thus, every person who hears the NT Gospel needs to repent and accept God’s justification in Jesus as Christ/Messiah the Lord or Supreme Commander (Luke 2:11, John 14:6, Acts 16:31), which means trying to obey (Phil. 3:12, 1John 1:8) His commandment to love one another (Matt. 22:37-40, John 13:35, Rom. 13:9)—forever (Matt. 10:22, Psa. 113:2).
5. Then God’s Holy Spirit will establish a saving relationship with those who freely accept Him (Rev. 3:20) that will eventually achieve heaven when by means of persevering in learning Truth/God’s Word/sanctification everyone cooperates fully with His will (John 14:6, 17&26, Rom. 8:6-17, Gal. 6:7-9, Eph. 1:13-14, Heb. 10:36, 12:1, Jam. 1:2-4).

 

[Melach]

That is true of what Pelagian heretics such as yourself do. There are zero verses articulating your
beloved free will, and many depicting the opposite of what you believe, while you outright deny
what is said in numerous places, and agree with those who rewrite the words of Jesus Christ Himself,
and blaspheme God. But you also blaspheme God rather than admit you are wrong.

sad, why not just give God all the glory? who cares about man's freedom. what about God's freedom?

 

[HeIsHere]

but that is how it is in the bible.

take lydia as an example:

Acts 16:14 One of those listening was a woman from the city of Thyatira named Lydia, a dealer in purple cloth. She was a worshiper of God. The Lord opened her heart to respond to Paul’s message.

I will say once again this not an internal work, not a cleansing and certainly not regeneration, but rather if you pay attention to the fact that we need to be respectful of idiomatic expressions in scripture where this means Lydia was persuaded to pay attention because she was already someone who was wanting to learn more.

So many assumptions made by the Reformed soteriology regrading this passage ....

1) assume this heart opening is a doctrinal requirement for salvation
2) assume the Lord exclusively uses supernatural heart-opening measures and does not use common ordinary circumstantial means to open someone's heart
3) assume Lydia was lost or unsaved
4) assume the things spoken of by Paul were the Gospel
5) assume believing on Christ requires something additional to hearing see Romans 10: 14-17
6) assume everyone else who is saved must have their heart open in the same manner, thereby not taking into context that this was unique time in church history where God was intervening to help grow the ekklesia.
7) assume this means an internal work
8) assume this is circumcision of the the heart.

and one and on...one assumption after another.

Romans 10:14-17
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?3 And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, w“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

 

[HeIsHere]

sad, why not just give God all the glory? who cares about man's freedom. what about God's freedom?

This is not about free will.

 

[Melach]

I will say once again this not an internal work, not a cleansing and certainly not regeneration but rather if you pay attention to the fact that we need to be respectful of idiomatic expressions in scripture where this means Lydia was persuaded to pay attention because she was already someone who was already wanting to learn more.

So many assumptions made by the Reformed soteriology regrading this passage ....

1) assume this heart opening is a doctrinal requirement for salvation
2) assume the Lord exclusively uses supernatural heart-opening measures and does not use common ordinary circumstantial means to open someone's heart
3) assume Lydia was lost or unsaved
4) assume the things spoken of by Paul were the Gospel
5) assume believing on Christ requires something additional to hearing see Romans 10: 14-17
6) assume everyone else who is saved must have their heart open in the same manner, thereby not taking into context that this was unique time in church history where God was intervening to help grow the ekklesia.
7) assume this means an internal work
8) assume this is circumcision of the the heart.

and one and on...one assumption after another.

Romans 10:14-17
14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard?3 And how are they to hear without someone preaching?
15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, w“How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!”
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?”
17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ.

very scary.

but the regeneration is part of the new covenant. you know that is what the new covenant is?

Ezekiel 36:25-27 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them .


Jeremiah 31:33
but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD , I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

the new covenant is God's work. once that happens, you then can see the kingdom, your eyes are opened and you believe. you cannot choose to believe something. i cant choose to believe something i dont perceive to be true. the reason we assume something more than hearing is needed is because the natural man does not want to hear nor care. st.paul writes to the corinthians that the message of the cross is foolishness to the unbelievers

 

[GWH]

sad, why not just give God all the glory? who cares about man's freedom. what about God's freedom?

Why not glorify God for His love instead of demeaning His justness?
What about God's freedom to love everyone?

Who cares about the true Gospel?
Christians do.

 

[HeIsHere]

very scary.

but the regeneration is part of the new covenant. you know that is what the new covenant is?

Ezekiel 36:25-27 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them .


Jeremiah 31:33
but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD , I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

the new covenant is God's work. once that happens, you then can see the kingdom, your eyes are opened and you believe. you cannot choose to believe something. i cant choose to believe something i dont perceive to be true. the reason we assume something more than hearing is needed is because the natural man does not want to hear nor care. st.paul writes to the corinthians that the message of the cross is foolishness to the unbelievers

Another assumption >>>>> the natural man is born innately unable to respond positively (and not only that created by God to be that way) to the Good News of Christ Jesus

 

[HeIsHere]

very scary.

but the regeneration is part of the new covenant. you know that is what the new covenant is?

Ezekiel 36:25-27 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them .


Jeremiah 31:33
but this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD , I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

the new covenant is God's work. once that happens, you then can see the kingdom, your eyes are opened and you believe. you cannot choose to believe something. i cant choose to believe something i dont perceive to be true. the reason we assume something more than hearing is needed is because the natural man does not want to hear nor care. st.paul writes to the corinthians that the message of the cross is foolishness to the unbelievers

btw the way none of this is stated to occur prior to faith.

 

[HeIsHere]

Agreed.