How long have you been single?

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That's the logical reaction to the pornified culture we're living in. Why wouldn't I be so negative on it, when everything about it is negative, including and especially church teachings? And lots of otherwise respectable and honorable church leaders themselves are busted by such allegations, even the devil himself couldn't do a better job to discredit the church's moral authority?

And I do agree that people can enjoy sex, but the only kind of "people" who enjoy and brag about it not role models to follow. Married couples usually keep it to themselves as a private matter, whether they enjoy it or not.

And as I pointed out, this magical flip that turns what gets you burned in hell to what lifts you up to high heaven overnight is just an illusion, pure idolatry. I think we can agree that sex is designed as the consummation of an existing and matured relationship, like the signing of a big deal over a long time of negatiation. If a couple weren't already "in love" and "attached", they still had doubts on committing the rest of their lives to each other, they probably shouldn't get married in the first place, no amount of dopamine and oxytocin could suddenly get them "in love" and "attached", especially for those who'd already had ample sexual experience with other people before, a hallmark of the "modern age".

Then there's the other extreme, the wretched souls who were victims of bad, violent sex, growing up in this pornified culture saturated with sexual imageries, exposed only to the negative aspects of sex, you yourself named quite a few "STDs, unwanted pregnancies, unwed mothers, abortions," you're selling marriage to them as the solution and expecting them to get "in love" and "attached" overnight?

I actually understand your sentiment. Yes, originally sex was good, just like everything else God created, God didn't make junk, it's the devil who ruined it, we live in a sinful and broken world with cheapened, commercialized, distorted sex, but "from the beginning it was not so," as Lord Jesus remarked. He taught them the orginal design of marriage, yet he made no attempt to restore it, he didn't tell his disciples to get married in the right, ideal way, because the present age was passing away, earthly marriage and sex, either good or bad, was a distraction, he wanted his disciples to set their mind on eternality, same point was reiterated by Paul in 1 Cor. 7.

Sir, once again to remind you, we're all born single, that's our default status. Dating someone you barely know is a choice, committing your life to marraige is a choice, conceiving a kid is a chocie, recognizing them as a gamble is not a choice.

I'm not the one who's "reminding" them that, "purity culture" and "consent culture" are. The former worships romance and sex as idols, the latter trashes them as patriarchal oppression. The most reasonable reaction would be the same as the Corianthian church, "better not to touch a woman at all", lest you get yourself into trouble.
So the "logical reaction" to worldly corruptions of sex is to avoid romance/marriage/sex entirely? I mean, if you're OK with that, I guess you're free to go to that extreme.

"Married couples usually keep it to themselves as a private matter, whether they enjoy it or not." Have you ever seen a loving married couple raise a large family of many children? Or even one child? It doesn't seem all that mysterious to me whether married couples enjoy sex, especially in the Christian church. But, that's just me, haha.

"And as I pointed out, this magical flip that turns what gets you burned in hell to what lifts you up to high heaven overnight is just an illusion, pure idolatry." There's lots of good things that can be corrupted. For example, having sex as a Christian married couple and then raising a family is one thing. Two unmarried people having sex and the guy abandoning his partner afterwards to face all the consequences on her own is quite another.

You also mention bad, violent sex. That, unfortunately, exists, too. But this is not the only type of sex one can choose to engage in. I can eat food in moderation. I can also eat food to the point of becoming a glutton. That doesn't make food or eating bad. It depends on the circumstances. I can save and spend money wisely. I can also hoard my money and spend it on frivolous or sinful things. The money itself is neutral.

And Paul said positive things about marriage, too.

But, hey, if you, personally, believe that celibacy is best for you, well, the Bible gives us the freedom to choose that, too, you're right.
 
Stop rattling the past LOL. Isn't that what you are doing? You speak as if people are not free to fornicate still.
The level of sin looks to have increased in the world, and sexual activity and deviancy grew right along with that.
You are idealizing a decade you did not live through. I was there.
Well any decade before seems better than the current one, where not only the meaning of life, but the meaning of a human being is challenged by the onslaught of AI.

Yes, I idealize a decade I didn't live through, that's called anemoia, a common sentiment these days, especially common among Gen Zs who grew up with internet, social media and iDevices. They yearn for a simpler time before they were born.
 
So the "logical reaction" to worldly corruptions of sex is to avoid romance/marriage/sex entirely? I mean, if you're OK with that, I guess you're free to go to that extreme.

"Married couples usually keep it to themselves as a private matter, whether they enjoy it or not." Have you ever seen a loving married couple raise a large family of many children? Or even one child? It doesn't seem all that mysterious to me whether married couples enjoy sex, especially in the Christian church. But, that's just me, haha.

"And as I pointed out, this magical flip that turns what gets you burned in hell to what lifts you up to high heaven overnight is just an illusion, pure idolatry." There's lots of good things that can be corrupted. For example, having sex as a Christian married couple and then raising a family is one thing. Two unmarried people having sex and the guy abandoning his partner afterwards to face all the consequences on her own is quite another.

You also mention bad, violent sex. That, unfortunately, exists, too. But this is not the only type of sex one can choose to engage in. I can eat food in moderation. I can also eat food to the point of becoming a glutton. That doesn't make food or eating bad. It depends on the circumstances. I can save and spend money wisely. I can also hoard my money and spend it on frivolous or sinful things. The money itself is neutral.

And Paul said positive things about marriage, too.

But, hey, if you, personally, believe that celibacy is best for you, well, the Bible gives us the freedom to choose that, too, you're right.
"Worldly corruptions of sex"? Yeah, that's the state of the world we're living in. You think I'm being extreme? What did Lord Jesus say on that matter? "Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds."

As for "loving married couple", hypothetically speaking, I do feel happy for them, but forgive me for not wanting to sneak into their bedroom to verify how loving they really are.

And yes, absolutely, sex is more commonly described and warned as a curse, it can be a blessing too. How about just don't bother with it, and go for what God has called us to do?

Paul was neither pro marriage or anti marriage, he taught us to live as you called and remain where you are, you're called a single you remain single, you're called married you remain married, that's what I've been saying. Pauls' not all black and white on this issue, and neither am I. The real freedom is to be free from your obsession on marriage or lack thereof, free of judgement, resentment and self-pity, be content with whatever gift the Lord has granted you, even as small as a cooler day in summer or a warmer day in winter.
 
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Well any decade before seems better than the current one, where not only the meaning
of life, but the meaning of a human being is challenged by the onslaught of AI.

Yes, I idealize a decade I didn't live through, that's called anemoia, a common sentiment these days, especially common
among Gen Zs who grew up with internet, social media and iDevices. They yearn for a simpler time before they were born.
Sounds like covetousness or envy. Oh, you have it so much worse? Self pity is not pretty either.

Acts17-26-27s.png

Acts 17:26-27 ~ From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. :)
 
Sounds like covetousness or envy.

Acts17-26-27s.png

Acts 17:26-27 ~ From one man He made every nation of men, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and He determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their lands. God intended that they would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. :)
No, lamentation.
 
You seem to focus very intensely on all the negative aspects of sex. Like the assault and harassment allegations you allude to. That seems to color your whole perception of the entire idea of sex, even loving marital sex.

If you, for whatever reason, believe it's impossible for people (or women) to enjoy sex, well, OK. Clearly you won't be moved on that point. Somehow, that's not stopping married couples from having sex, though. I guess the only way for a wife to have sex then is through the manipulation of her sex-crazed husband?

I don't mean to lead you into temptation at all. I'm saying people can enjoy sex. Something we seem to disagree on. OK, fine. So be it.

Jesus never ate chocolate, either. Is it bad to enjoy chocolate?

"If [sex] were so good, why must it be restricted within wedlock?" That's a good question, actually. I don't think that particular inquiry has come up yet in this thread. But let's look at it. There's good reasons.

In 1 Corinthians 7:2 we're told that “But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband.” In Hebrews 13:4 we're told that "Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral.” Here, we have both adultery and fornication contrasted with what happens in the marriage bed. Marriage (and sex within marriage) is called honorable. All other types of sexual activity are condemned as immoral, and as something God will judge.

In Genesis and in the Gospels, we’re told that when people marry, they become “one flesh" (Gen. 2:24) Jesus also mentions this in Matt. 19:5 and Mark 10:7) Of course, in the Bible marriage was basically synonymous with having sex. We see that all the time when the Bible talks about people consummating their marriage. And, in the modern age, we know that, when people do have sex, our brains get chemical spikes (dopamine and oxytocin) that make us feel “in love” and “attached.” This is dangerous in the dating stage, because it makes us form attachments to people who may not be good for us and people who, apart from a shared sexual experience, we may have little in common with. There’s not really such a thing as “casual” sex. In physical terms, sex is the most intimate way that you'll ever physically connect with someone else.

Before marriage, a couple has no binding union, and they’ve entered no sacred covenant. Without marriage, and without the marriage vows, they have no right to exploit the culmination of such vows.

And, of course, if people had less premarital sex, there would be less STDs, unwanted pregnancies, unwed mothers, abortions, or children growing up in broken families.

"Why did God torture Eve with excruciating pain in childbirth, Gen. 3:16, as the natural consequence of it?" That verse tells us that a woman’s pain in childbirth is part of the suffering brought into the world through sin. It also seems that, even before the Fall, there was already pain in childbirth. When the text notes God saying, “I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth” it uses a Hebrew word meaning “to increase.” The pain of childbirth would be more than before.

Of course, we don't fully understand all the reasons as to why Eve was judged with a level increased pain in childbirth. But we do know that this judgment impacted the rest of Eve’s life and serves as an ongoing reminder of the far-reaching consequences of sin.

You seem to think that everyone's decision to date, marry and have sex will inevitably result in failure and disaster. Well, if you think that....good news! You don't have to get married if you don't want to. It's your choice.

You also mention "allegations of sexual assault or harassment." Again, there's good and godly ways for Christians to enjoy sex. There's bad, harmful, and sinful ways for people to experience sex.

You also mention self-control. A Christian exercising self-control over their sexual desires does not mean they will completely eliminate their sexual desires. Again, sexual desires are not bad in and of themselves. It's not wrong to have sexual desires. But we can choose to fulfill these in either godly or sinful ways.

And if you're a Christian, and you can't get married, then you'll have to stay abstinent. If there's a Christian out there dealing with truly prolonged, unwanted singleness, and perhaps never get to marry in their lifetime, then yes, they'll have to make sacrifices, and painful sacrifices at that. But Jesus did, after all, say that true discipleship would be like that.

I don't mean to sound harsh, but maybe try to show some compassion for people who do have to deal with those situations, instead of "reminding" them that "Hey, romance and sex isn't all that great anyway." If you're genuinely content with your own singleness, great. If you personally don't have strong sexual desires, great. But both Jesus and Paul said that not everyone is like that. And that's fine.
"No matter how much cats fight, there always seem to be plenty of kittens."
 
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"Worldly corruptions of sex"? Yeah, that's the state of the world we're living in. You think I'm being extreme? What did Lord Jesus say on that matter? "Nevertheless I have a few things against you, because you allow that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, to teach and seduce My servants to commit sexual immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. And I gave her time to repent of her sexual immorality, and she did not repent. Indeed I will cast her into a sickbed, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of their deeds."

As for "loving married couple", hypothetically speaking, I do feel happy for them, but forgive me for not wanting to sneak into their bedroom to verify how loving they really are.

And yes, absolutely, sex is more commonly described and warned as a curse, it can be a blessing too. How about just don't bother with it, and go for what God has called us to do?

Paul was neither pro marriage or anti marriage, he taught us to live as you called and remain where you are, you're called a single you remain single, you're called married you remain married, that's what I've been saying. Pauls' not all black and white on this issue, and neither am I. The real freedom is to be free from your obsession on marriage or lack thereof, free of judgement, resentment and self-pity, be content with whatever gift the Lord has granted you, even as small as a cooler day in summer or a warmer day in winter.

Yes, I believe you're being extreme, to be frank. But, you have the freedom to do adopt such a position. You're also free avoid marriage entirely, if, if you so choose.

You mention a statement of Jesus about sexual immorality. So now a couple marrying and having sex falls under "sexual immorality"? Very interesting.

"As for 'loving married couple', hypothetically speaking, I do feel happy for them, but forgive me for not wanting to sneak into their bedroom to verify how loving they really are."
What? Where in the Bible are we given a list of forbidden sex acts between a married couple?

"And yes, absolutely, sex is more commonly described and warned as a curse, it can be a blessing too. How about just don't bother with it, and go for what God has called us to do?"
Well, then! I'm glad you can see that it can be blessing. Congratulations! And if you, personally don't want to bother with marriage, or sex, well, you're free to do that. If you want to warn everyone else about it, well, you're free to do that too, I guess. The Christians who desire marriage are free to pursue that, and to have sex afterwards. Of course, if you, personally, don't want to to bother with any of that, well, you don't have to.

Also, remember, when Paul wrote to the Corinthians, he was writing to a church that was experiencing lots of worldly distress at the time. it makes sense for Paul to caution the members of that church about entering into marriage. Paul is cautioning them. He is not forbidding it. Letters like 1 Corinthians were written for us, certainly, but they were not written to us. For instance, in 1 Corinthians 5:1, Paul warns about a certain member of the Corinthian church who was sleeping with his mother-in-law. I doubt you, or I, or Christians today, need to be told that this sort of thing is bad. But the people of Corinth were notorious for unrestrained sexual practices.

"The real freedom is to be free from your obsession on marriage or lack thereof." In 1 Corinthians 7 Paul also mentions people who "burn with passion," and he says that it's OK for those people to marry. He even says that it's better for those people to marry.

1 Corinthians 7:8-9: "But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; ;but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion."
1 Corinthians 7:28: "But even if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned."

In 1 Timothy 4:1-3, Paul also strongly condemns people who forbid marriage, calling such teachings the "doctrines of demons" and the work of "hypocritical liars."

So the idea that Paul was somehow "neutral" on marriage or didn't care about it doesn't seem quite right.

And speaking of things that Jesus said, see Matthew 19:10-11.

But if you're personally content with singleness, well, good for you. Some people are like that. Some people aren't. Nothing wrong with that.

Also, just because someone's currently single doesn't mean it's a "gift the Lord has granted you." Some people are single not because they chose it or because God chose it. It's just the way life turned out. Jesus talked about that in Matthew 19.
 
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Yes, I do have that insight, penetrative sex is only pleasurable for men and rarely pleasurable for women, it's often taught as marital "duty" by the church and the culture. Throughout history, men who enjoy lots of sex is admired, women who enjoy lots of sex is shamed and condemned. I did my research, none of these is baseless.

And yes, "romantic love", as in "eros", is all about hormones, it is nowhere close to the agape love, the kind of ultruistic love for God and our neighbor.
I don't think that any church is qualified to teach sex education.
 
I don't know about you, I'd rather mop my own floor, clean my own table and cook my own dinner than going through all the trouble to bring another person to do it for me. This is like luring a wild, free spirited bird and locking it into a cage for your own pleasure.
If you were married, why would you expect your wife to do such tasks? A wife is not the slave of her husband, to wait on his every whim and desire. You did not mention how old you are?
 
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If you were married, why would you expect your wife to do such tasks? A wife is not the slave of her husband, to wait on his every whim and desire. You did not mention how old you are?
I think some wives genuinely enjoy things like cooking as a way to make their husband happy, and some husbands genuinely appreciate these sorts of kind gestures.

Of course, what the heck do I know? I'm just a naive idealist or something. Hahaha!
 
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A mature discussion would be about how faith in Lord Jesus, by his all sufficient grace and atonement for our sins, gets us through the hard times of distress and loneliness, not a string of justification for sexual desires and delights.

So there's only one subject you can have a mature discussion about? That explains a lot. 🤔
 
Well any decade before seems better than the current one, where not only the meaning of life, but the meaning of a human being is challenged by the onslaught of AI.

Yes, I idealize a decade I didn't live through, that's called anemoia, a common sentiment these days, especially common among Gen Zs who grew up with internet, social media and iDevices. They yearn for a simpler time before they were born.

Ecclesiastes 7:10​

10 Say not thou, What is the cause that the former days were better than these? for thou dost not enquire wisely concerning this.
 
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Yes, I believe you're being extreme, to be frank. But, you have the freedom to do adopt such a position. You're also free avoid marriage entirely, if, if you so choose.

You mention a statement of Jesus about sexual immorality. So now a couple marrying and having sex falls under "sexual immorality"? Very interesting.

"As for 'loving married couple', hypothetically speaking, I do feel happy for them, but forgive me for not wanting to sneak into their bedroom to verify how loving they really are."
What? Where in the Bible are we given a list of forbidden sex acts between a married couple?

"And yes, absolutely, sex is more commonly described and warned as a curse, it can be a blessing too. How about just don't bother with it, and go for what God has called us to do?"
Well, then! I'm glad you can see that it can be blessing. Congratulations! And if you, personally don't want to bother with marriage, or sex, well, you're free to do that. If you want to warn everyone else about it, well, you're free to do that too, I guess. The Christians who desire marriage are free to pursue that, and to have sex afterwards. Of course, if you, personally, don't want to to bother with any of that, well, you don't have to.

Also, remember, when Paul wrote to the Corinthians, he was writing to a church that was experiencing lots of worldly distress at the time. it makes sense for Paul to caution the members of that church about entering into marriage. Paul is cautioning them. He is not forbidding it. Letters like 1 Corinthians were written for us, certainly, but they were not written to us. For instance, in 1 Corinthians 5:1, Paul warns about a certain member of the Corinthian church who was sleeping with his mother-in-law. I doubt you, or I, or Christians today, need to be told that this sort of thing is bad. But the people of Corinth were notorious for unrestrained sexual practices.

"The real freedom is to be free from your obsession on marriage or lack thereof." In 1 Corinthians 7 Paul also mentions people who "burn with passion," and he says that it's OK for those people to marry. He even says that it's better for those people to marry.

1 Corinthians 7:8-9: "But I say to the unmarried and to the widows: It is good for them if they remain even as I am; ;but if they cannot exercise self-control, let them marry. For it is better to marry than to burn with passion."
1 Corinthians 7:28: "But even if you do marry, you have not sinned; and if a virgin marries, she has not sinned."

In 1 Timothy 4:1-3, Paul also strongly condemns people who forbid marriage, calling such teachings the "doctrines of demons" and the work of "hypocritical liars."

So the idea that Paul was somehow "neutral" on marriage or didn't care about it doesn't seem quite right.

And speaking of things that Jesus said, see Matthew 19:10-11.

But if you're personally content with singleness, well, good for you. Some people are like that. Some people aren't. Nothing wrong with that.

Also, just because someone's currently single doesn't mean it's a "gift the Lord has granted you." Some people are single not because they chose it or because God chose it. It's just the way life turned out. Jesus talked about that in Matthew 19.
"Whoever divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, and marries another, commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced commits adultery.” Yeah, very interesting indeed, I'm as reasonable as the Lord's own disciples who drew their conclusion in Matt. 19:10 - it is better not to marry at all than to get stuck in a bad marriage for the rest of your life, or worse, married with the love of your life, only finding out later that you were attracted to the wrong person under the influence of hormonal birth control! I didn't make this up, it has been reported among many that hormonal birth control distorts mating preference. You may mock the idea as absurd, Lord Jesus didn't. Instead, He acknowledges that some people can accept such a calling and that others cannot. The discussion ends not with a celebration of marriage but with recognition that celibacy for the kingdom is a legitimate and even noble path.

"What? Where in the Bible are we given a list of forbidden sex acts between a married couple?" Where in the bible encourage you to snoop around other people's sex life?

You repeatedly defend marriage against a charge that was never made. But acknowledging that something is permitted by God does not automatically mean it should occupy a central place in a believer's life. Wealth is permitted. Food is permitted. Recreation is permitted. Yet all of these can become idols when people organize their lives around them. Marriage is no different.

You cite 1 Corinthians 7 as proof that Paul approved of marriage. Of course he did. Nobody disputes that. What is striking, however, is the relative emphasis Paul gives to marriage versus singleness. Throughout the chapter, Paul's preference is obvious. He repeatedly says it is "good" to remain unmarried as he is, that the unmarried person is able to be concerned with the things of the Lord in a way the married person cannot, and that in his judgment the unmarried state is better under the circumstances.

The fact that Paul allows marriage does not erase the fact that he consistently presents it as a concession to human weakness rather than as the ideal state for maximum devotion to God. "Better to marry than to burn" is hardly a glowing endorsement. It is a remedy, not a celebration.

Likewise, in 1 Timothy 4 Paul condemns those who forbid marriage, but warning people about the potential spiritual dangers of marriage is not the same thing as forbidding it. There is a significant difference between saying "marriage is sinful" and saying "marriage can become a distraction from wholehearted devotion to God." Paul himself makes precisely that argument in 1 Corinthians 7.

When modern Christians devote enormous amounts of energy to finding a spouse, building a family, and pursuing romantic fulfillment, it is fair to ask whether they are pursuing God's kingdom or simply baptizing the same desires that dominate the surrounding culture. The fact that something is lawful does not automatically mean it is spiritually beneficial or worthy of primary attention.

So the issue is not whether marriage is allowed. The issue is whether Christians have given marriage a prominence that neither Jesus nor Paul gave it. On that question, simply quoting verses that permit marriage does not answer the concern.
 
If you were married, why would you expect your wife to do such tasks? A wife is not the slave of her husband, to wait on his every whim and desire. You did not mention how old you are?
If you don't expect such, where would you get married? Food, table, floor ain't gonna cook, wipe and mop themselves, somebody has to do it; and the workload may be doubled, even tripled or quadrupled, with more people in the house making messes.