False teaching by separating Scripture from Scripture

[Lamar]

Good response if true. And water baptism can't be so easily dismissed from salvation, like outer circumcision.

However, I'm sure you've read and heard the Scriptures in Acts and elsewhere, but I'll go through them with you anyway.

It's clear that water baptism does not always accompany conversion and receiving Jesus Christ. It does not mean that water baptism is not done at all by the new converts, however, there is practical and doctrinal proof, that water baptism is not necessary to be saved, no more than is outward circumcision.

Cornelius and his household is baptized with the holy Ghost without water baptism. God does not give of Himself to unconverted sinners. Receiving of the spirit is by the hearing of the word with faith:

Gal 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

1Pe 3:21
The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Water baptism is indeed a physical figure of conversion, but is not the conversion by faith toward God.

Natural water does not wash aways sins and trespasses of the soul, no more than natural blood of bulls and goats...

Jhn 15:3
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.

Eph 5:25
Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Only the washing of the clean word of God, is the baptism of Christ to convert the soul. Even as the circumcision of the Spirit cuts off past sins and trespasses.

1Co 12:13
For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.

Col 2:10
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

No one can say that faith and conversion cannot be with water baptism, but repentance and faith does convert the soul without water baptism.

Act 2:36
Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?

Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

The one thing that faith and conversion cannot be without nor before, is repentance from dead works without Christ:

Mark{1:15}
The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,

Eph 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.

That sure is a lot of work to try to convince yourself that water baptism is not the moment of the remission of sins.

Instead of all these verses that do not mention salvation by faith alone, would it not be quicker and more convincing to share a verse that actually states faith alone?

Your words are more akin to philosophy than theology.

Jesus Himself clearly stated that whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.

There is no need to cross examine such a simple statement unless you don't want it to be so simple.

 

[ATG]

DavidLamb said:
Although I certainly don't believe that water baptism is a prerequisite of being saved, nor do I believe that it is an "optional extra" for people once they have been saved.

Water baptism is not needed for salvation. Water baptism is not optional for those saved.

So do the saved without water baptism lose their salvation if they don't get water baptized?

This is closer to the point, and a fair challenge.

Transgressions against God's commandments unjustify any person doing evil, without respect to any faith of the transgressor

In Scripture, faith alone does not justify any person, and disobedience is counted for unbelief:

Heb 3:17
But with whom was he grieved forty years? was it not with them that had sinned, whose carcases fell in the wilderness? And to whom sware he that they should not enter into his rest, but to them that believed not? So we see that they could not enter in because of unbelief.

So, the challenge is that if a convert is not water baptized, then by disobedience his faith is counted for unbelief, and his conversion for unconversion. The same as outer circumcision is counted for uncircumcision by transgressing the law.

And so, the question is if water baptism is a commandment by law of Christ to be obeyed, and if so, then disobedience to water baptism is counted as unbelief, the same as the Israelite sinners that perished in the wilderness.

That's because there is no conversion (remission of sins) before water baptism.

This is of course false, since there is Scriptural record and doctrine of faith conversion by the Spirit before water baptism. Therefore, more properly, we can say refusing water baptism is because there is no conversion by faith.

And likewise, refusing to baptize a new convert can also prove unconversion of the baptizer, as not having the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ:

Jas 2:1
My brethren, have not the faith of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Lord of glory, with respect of persons....if ye have respect to persons, ye commit sin, and are convinced of the law as transgressors.

 

[Lamar]

This is of course false, since there is Scriptural record and doctrine of faith conversion by the Spirit before water baptism.

Instead of simply stating such as "this is of course false", why not show a clear cut example of the remission of sins before water baptism.

If it is so clearly false, it should not be difficult to point to.

 

[ATG]

That sure is a lot of work to try to convince yourself that water baptism is not the moment of the remission of sins.

This is a sure way to avoid the Scriptures given: Conversion with the Spirit is also before water baptism.

Your argument is failed, unless you can prove Cornelius' household was not converted, when he recieved the Holy Ghost the same as Peter and his fellow converts to Jesus Christ.

Act 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

The water baptism is not to become converted, but rather to become accepted among the fellow believers in Jesus Christ.

Instead of all these verses that do not mention salvation by faith alone, would it not be quicker and more convincing to share a verse that actually states faith alone?

Instead of failing your argument even further by misreading others, it's best to quote them first.

Your words are more akin to philosophy than theology.

Your words are more akin to unbelief than to belief in the Scriptures given.

Jesus Himself clearly stated that whoever believes and is baptized will be saved.

True. And he that believeth not shall be damned.

Peter also commanded the Jews on Pentecost to be baptized for remission of sins and receive the Holy Ghost.

That was not the case for the centurion Cornelius, nor for the Galatians.

Since you don't believe all Scriptures on the matter, then I don't quote them to you anymore.

There is no need to cross examine such a simple statement unless you don't want it to be so simple.

There's no need to cross examine Scriptural teaching, since you don't want the Scriptures to be so plain.

You've dishonestly avoided them to keep your own water baptism for your own salvation. If that's the result, then you can certainly
keep it to yourself.

2Co 4:2
But have renounced the hidden things of dishonesty, not walking in craftiness, nor handling the word of God deceitfully;

 

[Inquisitor]

Eph{2:8}
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

By this verse alone, anyone could say that salvation is only by faith through faith, to the exclusion of repentance and works.

You may want to read that verse again that you quoted.

It says salvation is BY grace THROUGH faith.

It does not say and no one could say "salvation is only by faith through faith".

Your works are the result of the grace of our lord and the Holy Spirit.

Any repentance you perform is not the reason for your salvation.

Salvation is a FREE GIFT given to those that believe.

Salvation belongs to Christ alone.

 

[Lamar]

This is a sure way to avoid the Scriptures given

Nothing is being avoided since none of your scriptures mention remission of sins without water baptism.

Conversion with the Spirit

Is this term in the Bible?

Your argument is failed, unless you can prove Cornelius' household was not converted, when he recieved the Holy Ghost the same as Peter and his fellow converts to Jesus Christ.

Since you are making the claim that they were given the remission of sins before water baptism is it not on you to "prove"?

The water baptism is not to become converted, but rather to become accepted among the fellow believers in Jesus Christ.

Here is the verse:

Acts 2:38

"Peter answered them, “All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift"

It most certainly does not say "to become accepted among your fellow believers"

And this is what you are pushing.

Instead of failing your argument even further by misreading others, it's best to quote them first.

I don't know what this means. Who are the "others"? This is between you and I, where did I misread or misquote you?

Peter also commanded the Jews on Pentecost to be baptized for remission of sins and receive the Holy Ghost.

That was not the case for the centurion Cornelius, nor for the Galatians.

You sure about this?

I believe Peter said the promise of Acts 2:38 was for all.

True. And he that believeth not shall be damned.

This is faith alone regeneration theology. Are you a supporter?


I will attempt to finish the rest of this tomorrow.

 

[Journey_man]

The application is to those who heard it first and what it meant to them, and then we understand it from that perspective, that is the correct interpretative lens.

Are you suggesting that the scripture doesn't apply to believers today?

 

[HeIsHere]

Are you suggesting that the scripture doesn't apply to believers today?

Not at all.. but we are not the primary/first audience...it was written for us.

 

[ATG]

Nothing is being avoided since none of your scriptures mention remission of sins without water baptism.

False. You either missed it given in the argument, or are blind to any Scripture that challenges your gospel of sins remitted only with water baptism:

Acts{3:19}
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

Nothing is said of water baptism at this conversion by repentance, and receiving Jesus Christ.

Here's another Scripture of sins remitted without any water baptism, but only by grace, faith, and receiving Jesus Christ.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Since you are making the claim that they were given the remission of sins before water baptism is it not on you to "prove"?

Since you are making the claim that remission of sins is not before water baptism, it's up to you to prove conversion, remission of sin, and receiving Jesus Christ cannot be before water baptism.

As well as the household of Cornelius receiving the Holy Ghost, the same as all apostles and converted saints in Christ Jesus.

Act 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

 

[ATG]

Acts 2:38
"Peter answered them, “All of you must turn to God and change the way you think and act, and each of you must be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ so that your sins will be forgiven. Then you will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift" It most certainly does not say "to become accepted among your fellow believers"

Act 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

It most certainly does command water baptism to become accepted among the saints.

And so we see how separating Scripture from Scripture is how self-isolated sects cling to their own favorite Scripture, while avoiding all others.

1Co 1:10
Now I beseech you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye all speak the same thing, and that there be no divisions among you; but that ye be perfectly joined together in the same mind and in the same judgment.

I don't know what this means. Who are the "others"? This is between you and I, where did I misread or misquote you?

This is between several people and yourself. You've failed your argument twice the same way.

In my case you accuse me of preaching salvation by faith alone without works. As I said, it's always best to quote someone saying it, before accusing it.

ATG said:
Peter also commanded the Jews on Pentecost to be baptized for remission of sins and receive the Holy Ghost. That was not the case for the centurion Cornelius, nor for the Galatians.
You sure about this? I believe Peter said the promise of Acts 2:38 was for all.

The promise of the Holy Ghost was for all, which Cornelius recieved before water baptism.

Until you prove Cornelius was not remitted sins by the Holy Ghost the same as Peter, then remission of sins was be before water baptism.

The same for Peter and the other 120 in the upper room, where no water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ was recorded before nor during.

ATG said:
True. And he that believeth not shall be damned.
This is faith alone regeneration theology. Are you a supporter?

Jesus did not preach faith alone regeneration theology.

Mar 16:16
He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.

Now you're accusing Jesus of the same thing, by misreading His words.

 

[TMS]

If we separate one Scripture from other Scriptures, not just verse to verse within a certain chapter, but also from other chapters and books, then we are falsely teaching Scripture out of context. The end result with be contradicting the unity of Scripture written for doctrine and prophecy of God.

I agree.

This is why we have so many false doctrines today.

But I want to focus on one aspect.

The FAITH AND WORKS controversy.

If you study the Bible and the history of God's word you will notice both FAITH AND WORDS. You will also notice that the devil is good at separating the truth.

The devil has taken some people away from faith and caused them to focus on works, but he has also taken some away from works to focus on faith.

The Bible shows that the people with true faith also have works.

Obedience is a sure sign of faith.

FAITH AND WORKS SHOULD NOT BE SEPERATED. But the devil has been good at separating it.

Jas 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.

Rom 3:31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Gal 5:25 If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

100% FAITH and 100% WORKS together.

Heb 11:8 By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went.

By Faith = obeyed.

To be faithful is to do works of God.

The devil does not care which extreme you go to.

If you fall into the trap of trying to save yourself, legalism, or do works to look good, or works are just tradition motivated by pride. What ever happens if it is not done through faith it is useless.
Heb 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: ....
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, ....

OR THE TRAP OF CHEAP FAITH. The trap of presumption and thinking because you believe your saved.
The trap of having faith that is dead. Faith without works.

Faith in the Grace of Jesus is wonderful but don't let the devil trick you into having a life of disobedience and iniquity presuming that faith in grace will cover it.

True faith is always a living faith that reveals itself through loving obedience to God's commandments.

While we are saved by grace through faith, this grace is never a license to continue in rebellion; rather, it is the power that enables us to live a life of holiness. It is a dangerous deception to believe that we can be saved in our sins rather than from our sins.

Romans 6:16
Know you not, that to whom you yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants you are to whom you obey; whether of sin to death, or of obedience to righteousness?
Luke 6:46
And why call you me, Lord, Lord, and do not the things which I say?
Romans 16:26
But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith:


Christ is the best example .... FAITH AND WORKS TOGETHER.

But all of Scripture points to the faithful being obedient.

Today many sermons are preached that pick and choose the verses about Faith and Grace, telling people all they need to do is believe. This is the Devil.

2Ti 4:3-4
3 For the time will come when they will not listen to the sound doctrine, but having itching ears, will heap up for themselves teachers after their own lusts, 4 and will turn away their ears from the truth, and turn away to fables.

The doctrine of the Nicolaitans.

Rev 2:15 WEB So also you likewise have some who hold to the teaching of the Nicolaitans.

Rev 2:15 KJV So hast thou also them that hold the doctrine of the Nicolaitans, which thing I hate.

Jude 1:4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

The doctrine of the Nicolaitans is a harmful heresy that turns the grace of God into lasciviousness and teaches that the gospel releases believers from the necessity of obeying the law of God. This teaching, which Christ unsparingly condemns, suggests that because of "believing," the law of God is made of none effect and Christians are no longer required to be doers of the Word. Romans 3:31.

Antinomianism: It teaches that the gospel of Christ has made the law of God void, leading to a life where obedience is viewed as unnecessary.

False Liberty: Adherents misinterpret the concept of not being "under the law" to mean they are no longer under the standard or direction of the law, rather than being free from its condemnation.

Don't go to either extreme. But watch out the Devil is using the cheap grace presumption alot today.

 

[ATG]

I'll try again. Baptism is not a requirement for a sinner to be saved. Once a sinner has been saved, they should be baptized.

True. Commanded to be baptized.

Act 10:47
Can any man forbid water, that these should not be baptized, which have received the Holy Ghost as well as we? And he commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord.

As saved people, no Christian obeys God perfectly.

No person disobeying God is obeying God at all. But is disobeying all the commandments when transgressing one.

Jas 2:10
For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law.

So a person could be saved, yet for some reason, not baptized.

True, unwillingly without fault.

But if willingly refuse to be baptized, conversion has not been by faith.

They don't lose their salvation for that, just as they don't loose it for not obeying perfectly the summary of the Ten Commandments given by Jesus, which includes loving God with all our heart, soul, mind and strength.

Here we have the sinners' gospel of not keeping God's commandments blamelessly.:

1 Thess{5:22}
Abstain from all appearance of evil. And the very God of peace sanctify you wholly; and I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ. Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

God's commandments are either kept or not. His commandments are not kept 'imperfectly'.

Preaching not keeping commandments blamelessly is preaching keeping commandments with lips only:

Isa 29:13
Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:

The precept of men to not keep God's commandments blameless, is not teaching the fear of the Lord, but only the self-justification of men.

They don't lose their salvation for that, just as they don't loose it for not obeying perfectly

Salvation is not lost, since it's not won. By transgressions the faith and justification freely given by God, is taken away with the Spirit.

Heb 10:38
Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him.

Jesus Christ is not living in any transgressor not loving God from the heart.

Sinful Christian religion of both obeying and disobeying commandments is counted as unrepentance and unbelief toward God:

Jerem 3:10
And yet for all this her treacherous sister Judah hath not turned unto me with her whole heart, but feignedly, saith the LORD.

Rev 3:15
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.








People both obeying and disobeying commandments

Christians with some obedience and some disobedience, is all disobedient to God

 

[Lamar]

I'll try again. Baptism is not a requirement for a sinner to be saved.

Mark 16:16:

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

David Lamb:

"Baptism is not a requirement for a sinner to be saved".

Does this is you pause for thought?

It should.

 

[ATG]

Not right out of the starting gate it isn't. How many works has one accomplished a split second after they have been saved through faith?

Not with natural works of the body, but only with spiritual works of the inner man.

Mat 23:26
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Deu 10:16
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Col 2:10
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

The works of the flesh include lust of evil thoughts, envy, heresies, idolatry, etc...These are the first works of the Spirit, that are cut off through faith of the inner man.

It's only the works of the outer man that naturally follow faith, which is already working within to sanctify the heart unto God.

Faith produces works and not the other way around.

Only faith alone without works, that only produces works later. Not the way faith in Jesus Christ is always with His first works, and never without.

Faith with the Spirit is always with inner working of God in the heart. Faith alone with men is always without God working in the heart.

Phl 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Only the natural man has faith alone without inward works first. He has natural faith that see only works of the outward man, and not any works of the inner man.

This is why natural men preach works for only men to see naturally, since all works are only natural. And so, does not preach the first works that only God sees:

Rom 2:28
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rev 2:4
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

This is why they also only see two false possibilities: Faith alone before works, or works alone before faith. Being only natural men, they cannot see nor acknowledge Jesus Christ's faith with works of the Spirit.

 

[ATG]

Not right out of the starting gate it isn't. How many works has one accomplished a split second after they have been saved through faith?

And so we see that 'naturally flowing' works of faith are a matter of time, not just of quality. Faith alone before works is only a natural faith, that has natural works of the body alone, not spiritual faith having works first within.

Being blind to the spiritual works of the kingdom of God within, the natural man only acknowledges natural works outwardly.

1Co 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

This is why the natural man reads parables likened to the kingdom of God, as being natural exact images. The natural man cannot conceive seed that bears fruit immediately with sowing, but only sees natural seed bearing fruit naturally in process of time.

Mar 4:20
And these are they which are sown on good ground; such as hear the word, and receive it, and bring forth fruit, some thirtyfold, some sixty, and some an hundred.

The Scripture says nothing of any natural process of time to bring forth fruit in the kingdom of God. Only the natural man believes all seed must behave naturally, and cannot produce fruit quickly at once with sowing.

Heb 4:12
For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart.

Phl 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

They don't see the spiritual seed, that is Christ Himself, who is always doing those things to please God, and is never doing nothing in the soul as dead seed alone:

1 Peter{1:22}
Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Faith with the Spirit is always with works of the Spirit. Faith alone of the natural man is only with works of the natural body alone.

Therefore, faith alone without works is as vain as works of the law without faith: For neither have works of the Spirit first, but only works of the body.

Mat 23:26
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

And so we see how faith alone with only natural works following, and works of the law without faith, are both unjustified the same: Neither have nor acknowledge the first works of the Spirit through faith of the inner man toward God.

Even as works without faith are dead to God, so also faith alone without works is always dead faith alone without works of the Spirit. Both only have works of the natural body to be seen and justified of men, not of God.

 

[mailmandan]

Not with natural works of the body, but only with spiritual works of the inner man.

Mat 23:26
Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Deu 10:16
Circumcise therefore the foreskin of your heart, and be no more stiffnecked. For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:

Col 2:10
And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power: In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:

The works of the flesh include lust of evil thoughts, envy, heresies, idolatry, etc...These are the first works of the Spirit, that are cut off through faith of the inner man.

It's only the works of the outer man that naturally follow faith, which is already working within to sanctify the heart unto God.

Only faith alone without works, that only produces works later. Not the way faith in Jesus Christ is always with His first works, and never without.

Faith with the Spirit is always with inner working of God in the heart. Faith alone with men is always without God working in the heart.

Phl 2:13
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Only the natural man has faith alone without inward works first. He has natural faith that see only works of the outward man, and not any works of the inner man.

This is why natural men preach works for only men to see naturally, since all works are only natural. And so, does not preach the first works that only God sees:

Rom 2:28
For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rev 2:4
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.

This is why they also only see two false possibilities: Faith alone before works, or works alone before faith. Being only natural men, they cannot see nor acknowledge Jesus Christ's faith with works of the Spirit.

1 Corinthians 2:11 - For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

 

[mailmandan]

Mark 16:16:

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

David Lamb:

"Baptism is not a requirement for a sinner to be saved".

Does this is you pause for thought?

It should.

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned.

The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely necessary salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. *NOWHERE did Jesus say, "whoever is not baptized will be condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

*John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[ATG]

Something to think about but I know of no passages that uses repentance as the moment of the remission of sins.

Acts 3:19
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

If sins blotted out is not remission of sins, then remission of sins is not with sins blotted out. And so remission is no more remission, and blotting out is no more blotting out.

In any case, if 'remission of sins' must be written in the Scripture, to have remission of sins by God, then the Scriptures also have remission of sins with repentance:

Luk 24:47
And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.

As well as other Scriptures of remission of sins without water baptism:

Act 10:42
And he commanded us to preach unto the people, and to testify that it is he which was ordained of God to be the Judge of quick and dead. To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.

Rom 3:24
Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Luk 1:76
And thou, child, shalt be called the prophet of the Highest: for thou shalt go before the face of the Lord to prepare his ways; To give knowledge of salvation unto his people by the remission of their sins, Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

While remission of their sins is not exactly 'remission of sins', it's close enough to be had without water baptism...

Separating one Scripture of water baptism with remission of sins, from 4 Scriptures of remission of sins without water baptism, is a classic example of isolating Scripture from Scripture in order to preach separation theology from Jesus Christ and His body on earth.

 

[DavidLamb]

Mark 16:16:

"Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned."

David Lamb:

"Baptism is not a requirement for a sinner to be saved".

Does this is you pause for thought?

It should.

No, because it does not say, "Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe and is not baptized will be condemned."

 

[Journey_man]

Not at all.. but we are not the primary/first audience...it was written for us.

I'm glad we can agree that, "All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work." (2 Timothy 3:16-17)

Some don't believe that the above verses apply to (all scripture), they claim much of the Old Testament is no longer relevant to us in the 21st century, but I don't agree with that view at all.