John 10
27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
Secret Rapture or Second Coming?
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28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.
No, you're wrong. The word translated as "keep" means guard. not remove
G5083 τηρέω tereo (tee-re'-ō) v.
1. to guard (from loss or injury).
2. (properly) by keeping the eye upon, i.e. to note (a prophecy).
Lol.
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G5083
vi Fut Act 1 Sg
SHALL-BE-KEEPING
ek
ek
G1537
Prep
OUT
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tEs
G3588
t_ Gen Sg f
OF-THE
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G5610
n_ Gen Sg f
HOUR
Keeping "you" out of.
You can not change the book of Revelation without consequences.
Wisdom would be attempting to carefully represent God's word always.
....but to change the book of Revelation to say what you need it to say is a dangerous road.
Clearly "keeping out of", means, keeping out of.
...but i know, you NEED it to say, "KEEPING YOU IN",
So far you have been wrong every time.
....hard to wiggle out of clear doctrine of Jesus.
The Baby Jesus was removed. He wasn't "kept in the slaughter"
lot and his family were removed. They weren't kept in the fire.
The 2 escape verses, by Jesus, are just that, escaping, not going through as you need it to say.
Noah was gathered pretrib into the ark.
ark = type of heaven.
Noah spent THE ENTIRE FLOOD ( 7YR TRIB) miles above the earth IN THE HEAVENS.
Noah RETURNED postrib BACK TO EARTH AFTER THE TRIB.
Jesus clearly taught a pretrib rapture.
all rapture verse settings are normal life, every day Life, Commerce, and planning for the future.
(Which is exactly opposite of the setting that you need the bible to say, for a post trib rapture.
.... exactly opposite of the word of God.
The word 'keep' is found in 5 places in Revelation - all of which were translated from this same word 'G5083' (which is, of course, the 'base'/'root' word definition) - 1:3; 3:10; 12:17; 14:12; 22:9 - look them all up - see how the Strong's definition fits into the use of each word in these 5 places?
The moment in the Olivet Discourse where Jesus pivots to a new topic occurs at Matthew 24:36 (parallel to Mark 13:32). In the Greek text, this pivotal shift is marked by the phrase περὶ δὲ (peri de), which is commonly translated as "But concerning" or "But of". In Koine Greek, the περὶ δὲ (peri de) construction acts as a standard rhetorical marker used to introduce a completely new subject, a shift in topic, or a specific sub-question. It is used similarly elsewhere in the New Testament (e.g., 1 Corinthians 7:1, 12:1, 1 Thessalonians 5:1) to signal: "Now, moving on to this other matter..."
Scholars debate the exact nature of the two topics across Matthew 24, but most agree this phrase separates two distinct prophetic themes: [1, 2]
i just cannot buy into a postrib, U-turn theology... the bible is riddled with typologies of His bride being kept from wrath.
Revelation 3:10: Contains Christ’s promise to keep the faithful church from "the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world"
Scholars debate the exact nature of the two topics across Matthew 24, but most agree this phrase separates two distinct prophetic themes: [1, 2]
- Before the shift (vv. 4–35): Jesus answers the disciples' questions regarding the signs of the end of the age and the destruction of the Jerusalem Temple. [1, 2]
- After the shift (vv. 36-51): Jesus introduces the topic of His ultimate second coming (parousia). He transitions to emphasizing that the exact timing of this event is entirely sign-less, unpredictable, and known only by the Father.
- The Arrangement (Shidduchin): Marriages were frequently arranged by the parents, with fathers negotiating the details, including the mohar (a bride price paid to the bride's family to compensate for the loss of her labor).
- The Betrothal (Erusin): This was the formal, legal wedding contract signing, known as the ketubah. The groom offered a gift (like a coin or ring) and the couple shared a cup of wine to seal the covenant vows. Even though they did not yet live together or consummate the marriage, they were legally considered husband and wife.
- The Separation: The groom would return to his father’s house to prepare a new dwelling or addition for his bride. This separation typically lasted about a year. The bride remained at her father's house, preparing her wedding garments, and was required to keep oil lamps ready at all times.
- The Procession (Nissuin): The wedding officially took place at night when the groom, accompanied by his companions carrying torches and playing music, would arrive to "kidnap" or claim his bride. The couple would be crowned as king and queen for the week.
- The Canopy (Chuppah): The procession led to the groom’s home, where the couple stood under a wedding canopy (chuppah) symbolizing their new household. The bride would often circle the groom seven times to represent building a new world together. Blessings were recited over wine, and the marriage was officially consummated.
- The Feast: Following the ceremony, the entire village engaged in a joyous wedding feast that typically lasted for seven days. [1, 2, 3]
i just cannot buy into a postrib, U-turn theology... the bible is riddled with typologies of His bride being kept from wrath.
Revelation 3:10: Contains Christ’s promise to keep the faithful church from "the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world"
The rapture will happen on the day of the second coming of the LORD Jesus..
Saints who are still alive on earth upon that day will be caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus as He returns and they will come right back down to earth with Him to rule on earth with Him for 1000 years..
During this time satan will be bound in chains in the bottomless pit and people will live far longer then they do today.. Saints will live forever because they have been transformed into perfected beings at the first resurrection on the day of the second coming of the LORD Jesus..
Saints who are still alive on earth upon that day will be caught up into the clouds to meet Jesus as He returns and they will come right back down to earth with Him to rule on earth with Him for 1000 years..
During this time satan will be bound in chains in the bottomless pit and people will live far longer then they do today.. Saints will live forever because they have been transformed into perfected beings at the first resurrection on the day of the second coming of the LORD Jesus..
Rev 12 and 13 say the opposite of postrib rapture doctrine.
If those chapters are true , none of you "go through"
You stay if you are a foolish virgin and get to deal with the ac
Yep
The Word of God says in matt 25 that the bride, once gathered goes into the marriage chamber and the door is shut.
Postrib rapture doctrine says that is not true.
Sad that so many are duped by a man made doctrine invented by the early church fathers.
BTW ...WE... pretribbers are the only doctrine incorporating the bride/ groom dynamic.
(The actual PURPOSE of the rapture, and we own it.)
We also are the only doctrine aware of the PURPOSE of the trib.
A ton of stuff a postribber has to relearn to be Biblically aligned.
Very well said.
Also look at the last supper dialogue and event.
It MIRRORS THE JEWISH WEDDING PROPOSAL.
THEN REV 19
The bride has become the wife in heaven at the marriage supper
Definitely psalm 1, I agree ...Those that don't hear, will see...and that's ok. I don't think its a salvation issue..
yup, and aboslutely in Rev 19...i kinda love the subtle change from Bride to wife..
Also in Hosea, we see the Jewish wife (the wife in rebellion), and is repurchased.....which we see illustrated in Romans Chapters nine through eleven.... and in revelation chapter fourteen.
The First miracle Jesus did was at a Jewish wedding, and it was declared, that, "you saved the best for last"
The Jewish wife , gathered during the trib , ( Rev 14), comes in after the church ....( last).
heaven sees end times through the bride, wife, groom prism.
postribs ,conversely, are "trib centered".
(Jesus is indirectly involved.)
First of all KH777 - welcome to the CC forums. 
Please take note of the fact that the phrase 'that day and hour' is referring back to the appearance of Christ described in verses 30-31. There is no complete separation of thought or topic at verse 36 - that verse and the ones directly after are intrinsically tied to earlier verses in the passage. The phrase 'coming of the Son of man' in verse 37 is referring directly to the same exact event described in verse 30 with the phrase 'Son of man coming'.
In the 'grammar of the language', the word 'that' (in/with the phrase 'that day and hour') in verse 36 cannot be "assigned" to a non-mentioned idea pulled out of nowhere - it has to (it must) refer to something already and previously mentioned in the passage - there are no two ways about it. And, that 'something' is the Second Coming of Christ - described in verses 30-31 - earlier in the passage.
If you equate the 'Feast' part to be 7 years - do you equate the 'Separation' part to be ~360 years? How did/does this apply to the 'Church' in history?
If you 'compare scripture with scripture' - I believe you will find that the time frame of the "seven days" in the 'Feast' part described above is identically the same as what is described in Ezekiel 39:9 in the context of the passage - which time frame and context are also found in Revelation 19:19-21 - please read them both very carefully.
You see - the problem 'pre-trib' folks have with comparing the Jewish marriage tradition with the End Times Scenario is that they assume that the end times events will occur exactly-and-precisely as the Jewish marriage tradition would dictate and did occur in times past. But, this is not the case. While the pattern may exist, the specific details concerning the way it actually occurs during/in the End Times Scenario are not identically the same.
Consider:
The 'rapture' IS the marriage.
What is described in this passage IS the marriage supper.
Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Everything in the Jewish marriage tradition is "represented" by 'events' of a different nature in the reality of 'events'. The "picture" is bigger/larger and the way you look at it in the context of scripture must take this into account. You cannot think about it like a man does - because, anything involving "God's time frame" requires a more "expanded" way of thinking. Remember:
Isaiah 55:
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
The pattern may exist - but the 'details' are different where the 'events' are concerned.
In the Jewish marriage tradition, the groom takes his bride to her [new] permanent home - not somewhere else for 7 years first...
No one is taken to heaven for 7 years. The 'permanent' home is on Earth - for the next 1000 years.
And, most important of all - 'pre-trib' folks have the penchant to [want to] completely separate prophecy concerning 'Israel' from prophecy concerning [the] 'Church' - except - they want to apply the Jewish marriage tradition directly to the [Christian] Church - the body of Christ - the Bride of Christ.
Why exactly is that???
The 'marriage' of Christ to His Bride - His 'Church' - is a Christian marriage and not a Jewish marriage.
Why would you think that it should precisely follow the Jewish marriage tradition in every detail? After all, He is not marrying Israel...
"Food for thought..."
(At this point, this post is near the per-post character limit - the rest of your post will have to be addressed in a future post.)
There are a number of 'shifts' in the Olivet Discourse. Please look carefully at the 'Comments' column of the chart on this web page:
Please take note of the fact that the phrase 'that day and hour' is referring back to the appearance of Christ described in verses 30-31. There is no complete separation of thought or topic at verse 36 - that verse and the ones directly after are intrinsically tied to earlier verses in the passage. The phrase 'coming of the Son of man' in verse 37 is referring directly to the same exact event described in verse 30 with the phrase 'Son of man coming'.
In the 'grammar of the language', the word 'that' (in/with the phrase 'that day and hour') in verse 36 cannot be "assigned" to a non-mentioned idea pulled out of nowhere - it has to (it must) refer to something already and previously mentioned in the passage - there are no two ways about it. And, that 'something' is the Second Coming of Christ - described in verses 30-31 - earlier in the passage.
And, if you wish to ascribe various events of the End Time Scenario to these separate "parts"/"points" of Jewish marriage tradition - then, you must also define in precision terms exactly when-and-how-and-why each of these apply to the Bride of Christ (the 'Church') throughout history - before-during-and-after the rapture.
If you equate the 'Feast' part to be 7 years - do you equate the 'Separation' part to be ~360 years? How did/does this apply to the 'Church' in history?
If you 'compare scripture with scripture' - I believe you will find that the time frame of the "seven days" in the 'Feast' part described above is identically the same as what is described in Ezekiel 39:9 in the context of the passage - which time frame and context are also found in Revelation 19:19-21 - please read them both very carefully.
You see - the problem 'pre-trib' folks have with comparing the Jewish marriage tradition with the End Times Scenario is that they assume that the end times events will occur exactly-and-precisely as the Jewish marriage tradition would dictate and did occur in times past. But, this is not the case. While the pattern may exist, the specific details concerning the way it actually occurs during/in the End Times Scenario are not identically the same.
Consider:
The 'rapture' IS the marriage.
What is described in this passage IS the marriage supper.
Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Everything in the Jewish marriage tradition is "represented" by 'events' of a different nature in the reality of 'events'. The "picture" is bigger/larger and the way you look at it in the context of scripture must take this into account. You cannot think about it like a man does - because, anything involving "God's time frame" requires a more "expanded" way of thinking. Remember:
Isaiah 55:
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
The pattern may exist - but the 'details' are different where the 'events' are concerned.
In the Jewish marriage tradition, the groom takes his bride to her [new] permanent home - not somewhere else for 7 years first...
No one is taken to heaven for 7 years. The 'permanent' home is on Earth - for the next 1000 years.
And, most important of all - 'pre-trib' folks have the penchant to [want to] completely separate prophecy concerning 'Israel' from prophecy concerning [the] 'Church' - except - they want to apply the Jewish marriage tradition directly to the [Christian] Church - the body of Christ - the Bride of Christ.
Why exactly is that???
The 'marriage' of Christ to His Bride - His 'Church' - is a Christian marriage and not a Jewish marriage.
Why would you think that it should precisely follow the Jewish marriage tradition in every detail? After all, He is not marrying Israel...
"Food for thought..."
(At this point, this post is near the per-post character limit - the rest of your post will have to be addressed in a future post.)
Just be careful not to confuse or conflate the 'details' of these things.
For example - I have actually heard people say that the 10 virgins were 'potential' candidates for [being] the bride - which is nonsense - in the proper context, the bride is already chosen. The 10 virgins are 'potential' attendees to the wedding. And, the parable has nothing whatsoever to do with who-is-in-the-bride - it has everything to do with who-will-be-at-the-wedding. Do you see why it is not a good idea to conflate the 'Bride' with those who make it through the door into the wedding before the door is shut? (Matthew 25:10 KJV)
Being kept from wrath is "a whole different thing" than being kept from persecution - or having to live through 'judgments' of God on the earth. The 'wrath' is one thing exactly-and-only - the 'vials'.
That particular promise was made to the specific church (Philadelphia) - which is associated with Christians living in a particular 'era' - which has already come and gone... (I am pretty sure we are in the Laodicea 'era' now; otherwise, we will very very soon cross over that boundary in time.)
What the 'seals' and the 'trumpets' represent are not part of the Wrath of God. Only what the 'vials' represent are the Wrath of God.
Thankyou Gary and its great that we are allowed to have different interpretations and views on Scripture...As far as back and forth, i actually wont participate in it, as I see this too much in the Body of Christ, causing division and discord. You have thousand leaning pretrib, midtrib or Uturn Trib , and hardly will ever be resolved until it happens. I do need an explanation regarding
- 1 Thessalonians 5:2: "For you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night".
- 2 Peter 3:10: "But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar...".