Secret Rapture or Second Coming?

[Waden21]

Revelation 7
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Jesus saves

That sounds like jobs trial ending?
Wasn’t that around 2000BC ?
Joshua the High Priest (Zechariah 3)
This is the absolute closest thematic and visual parallel to Job's courtroom-style trial in the entire Old Testament.

• The Tribulation: In a divine vision, Joshua the High Priest is put on trial in Heaven. He stands directly before the Angel of the Lord while Satan stands at his right hand to fiercely accuse him (exactly like Job's prologue). Joshua is physically standing there clothed in filthy, excrement-stained garments, which represent the sins and trials of the exiled people of Israel.
• The Cleanse & Robe: God fiercely rebukes Satan. The Angel commands the heavenly attendants, "Take off his filthy clothes!" God tells him, "See, I have removed your iniquity," and they instantly wash his head, place a clean turban on him, and wrap him in splendid, festive royal robes.

2. Joseph (Genesis 41)

• The Tribulation: Joseph was betrayed by his brothers, sold into slavery, and then spent years trapped in a dark Egyptian dungeon for a crime he did not commit. He was completely stripped of his family identity, living in prison filth.
• The Cleanse & Robe: When Pharaoh suddenly summoned him to interpret a dream, the text explicitly notes the transformation process: Joseph was hurriedly brought out of the dungeon, he shaved his face, washed his body, changed his clothes, and was presented to the king. After interpreting the dream, Pharaoh took his own signet ring, put it on Joseph's finger, and dressed him in robes of fine linen with a gold chain around his neck.

3. Naaman the Syrian Commander (2 Kings 5)

• The Tribulation: Naaman was a powerful, wealthy military general, but he was struck with severe leprosy (matching the exact physical affliction of boils that Job suffered). His disease made him ceremonially unclean, outcasted, and desperate.
• The Cleanse & Robe: The prophet Elisha told him to go wash himself in the muddy Jordan River seven times. When Naaman finally humbled himself and dipped into the water, the text says his flesh was completely cleansed and restored like that of a young boy. As a healed man of high status, he was immediately re-clothed in his elite commander's garments and garments of honor.

 

[KH777]

• Revelation 20:4: The Apostle John writes about seeing thrones, and those seated on them were given authority to judge. He specifically identifies the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and those who did not worship the beast. "They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years".
• Revelation 20:6: This verse states that those who share in the "first resurrection" will be priests of God and of Christ, and "shall reign with Him a thousand years".
• 2 Timothy 2:12: The Apostle Paul emphasizes this future promise, stating, "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him."
• Daniel 7:22: In the Old Testament, the prophet Daniel foretells that the "Ancient of Days" comes and that "judgment was given to the saints of the most High," and the time came that "the saints possessed the kingdom."

In addition to those ruling alongside Him in glorified, resurrected bodies, the Millennium will also be populated by believers in natural, earthly bodies (both surviving Jews and Gentiles who were faithful) who will live under Christ's peaceful, worldwide reign.

 

[GaryA]

Food for thought, I would recommend all that are open and interested to take a gander at His whole series...

I watched it.

I consider myself to be a 'historicist' - yet, I interpret Bible prophecy with a 'literal-first' approach - which is to say, it is literal unless there is in scripture an indication that it is non-literal.

God's time frame must always be considered.

Thankyou again, and yes I actually knew and understood this for many years. (mil reign, new heaven new earth etc ) again, i believe Revelations is literal and in order...

Revelation contains both literal and non-literal elements - and, is not fully in chronological order - there are 'overlaps' and 'sidesteps' in places.

My general Q was for you and maybe i missed it is to explain the difference of knowing exactly when the second coming is.. (2 sets of 42 months, 7 years . 2520 days...as explained in Rev,) versus not knowing the day or the hour...

Some of those time spans are actually past history.

General rule to go by - if the actual word 'days' is used, it is literal days; otherwise, there is a day-year translation involved - i.e. '42 months' translates into 1260 years rather than being just simply 42 months or 3.5 years.

The phrase 'a time, and times, and half a time' is 3.5 years - translated by day-years = 1260 years.

A proper interpretation of Revelation results in the understanding that Revelation 13:7 is past history while Revelation 13:8 is future.

God's time frame must always be considered.

seems to me, and although Im open to hear you all's view, not knowing the day or hour and knowing precisely (7 years) seems a bit contradictory to be the same event?

Even if the '7-year tribulation' idea were true (but, it is not), it does not mean that it would necessarily have to be exactly 7 years - to the day and hour. And, that is enough to do away with 'day and hour' speculation. In other words - 'no one knows the day or hour' would still be a true statement.

I don't believe at the second coming, only those not watching will see? All will and yes before the mil reign...

Every eye will see Jesus; however, that is a different thing than the moment He appears - "as a thief in the night" is about being taken off-guard - when you are not looking for it and do not expect it.

 

[Psalm1]

The second epistle makes it more clear. Do you think God knew about the 'pre-trib' deception?

2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

I'm watching for the abomination of desolation, which happens in the midst of thee week. The first half of the week is tribulation, 1260 days, 42 months or time, times and half time. All three are mentioned. The second half is God's wrath.

Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.

Amen.
those are the left behind foolish virgins that are there for a short time during the trib .
As you pointed out they all die who refuse the mark.

Are you aware your verses point to a pretrib rapture?

 

[KH777]

thnx Gary. i plain old disagree and that's ok. Again, this is not any resolve as thousands on either side will believe what they want, and again... until it happens its an easy topic to debate to oblivion... which I wont get bated in doing... Yes Rev is Chronological in order with a few epilogues John inserted. i will say yes, He used imagery to explain what he could from the time he was living in.

You can toss out Daniels prophecy if you want too, as it just boils down to 3 different camps, Pre, post and Uturn...

This is what I believe and wont change my position just as you and others wont...

Daniel's prophecy of the "70 weeks" (Daniel 9:24-27). In this prophecy, "weeks" represent "sevens" of years. While 69 of these weeks (483 years) cover history from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the crucifixion of Jesus, a final 7-year period (the 70th week)

very easy to count and know exactly when Jesus promise to return .. there is no mystery, there is no surprise that anyone should be "taken off guard"

Revelation 1:7: "Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen."
Matthew 24:27: "For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Blessings to you brother, no real need to try and educate me on your interpretation, we can agree to disagree..

 

[KH777]

i also meant to add yes, i do agree that Revelations, seals, trumpets and vials overlap....meaning one doesn't end if another one starts...

 

[Adstar]

Post a verse to that effect.
TY

It takes more then one verse to put things together..

1 Corrinthians 15: 50-

Now this I say Brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O Death where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"




So lets go through the passage:

1st Paul says:
" Now this I say Brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; nor does corruption inherit incorruption."

Here he says that our current bodies" flesh and blood" cannot enter the kingdom of heaven and cannot be eternal.

2nd Paul says:

"Behold I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,"



"we shall not all sleep" that means we shall not all experience death that’s what people who are ruptured will never experience. And when we are raptured our bodies will be changed "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" that’s instantly, more evidence of the nature of the rapture. Putting it all together it is saying that both the living AND THE DEAD will be changed in an instant this links the rapture to a resurrection, which is the first resurrection. So the rapture and the first resurrection is the same event but Living Christians will experience the first resurrection as the rapture.



3rdly Paul says:

"at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."



Now he goes on to explain when the rapture/ Ist resurrection will occur. "at the last trumpet", Last Trumpet?? What last trumpet? If you can look in Revelation 8 you will find the last trumpets. There are 7 soundings. have a read of them and you will see the wrath of God being poured out onto the earth.. Now of the last sounding it is written:


Revelation 10:7
"but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the MYSTERY of God would be finished, as He declared to His SERVENTS the PROPHETS. Yes and Paul was/is His servant and prophet.

So the rapture will happen at the last Trumpet this trumpet blast is also happens in scripture on the day of the second comming of My LORD Jesus..

Matthew 24:29 - Matthew 24:31
(Matthew 24:29-31) "¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: {30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. {31} And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

 

[Psalm1]

It takes more then one verse to put things together..

1 Corrinthians 15: 50-

Now this I say Brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O Death where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"




So lets go through the passage:

1st Paul says:
" Now this I say Brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; nor does corruption inherit incorruption."

Here he says that our current bodies" flesh and blood" cannot enter the kingdom of heaven and cannot be eternal.

2nd Paul says:

"Behold I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,"



"we shall not all sleep" that means we shall not all experience death that’s what people who are ruptured will never experience. And when we are raptured our bodies will be changed "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" that’s instantly, more evidence of the nature of the rapture. Putting it all together it is saying that both the living AND THE DEAD will be changed in an instant this links the rapture to a resurrection, which is the first resurrection. So the rapture and the first resurrection is the same event but Living Christians will experience the first resurrection as the rapture.



3rdly Paul says:

"at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."



Now he goes on to explain when the rapture/ Ist resurrection will occur. "at the last trumpet", Last Trumpet?? What last trumpet? If you can look in Revelation 8 you will find the last trumpets. There are 7 soundings. have a read of them and you will see the wrath of God being poured out onto the earth.. Now of the last sounding it is written:


Revelation 10:7
"but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the MYSTERY of God would be finished, as He declared to His SERVENTS the PROPHETS. Yes and Paul was/is His servant and prophet.

So the rapture will happen at the last Trumpet this trumpet blast is also happens in scripture on the day of the second comming of My LORD Jesus..

Matthew 24:29 - Matthew 24:31
(Matthew 24:29-31) "¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: {30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. {31} And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

There is a huge problem when;
1) the verses that make a postrib rapture impossible.
2) all the pretrib rapture verses POINTING TO a pretrib rapture.
3) seeing end times through a wrong prism, then seeing verses that don't apply, and making them apply.

Once the bible is viewed honestly, error decreases hugely.

IOW, Once an impossibility is discovered, normally we would take that "test fitted concept" impossibility off the table.

************5 Impossibilities ************
1) your doctrine has the dead in Christ NOT RISING FIRST by omitting Rev 14 gathering DURING THE TRIB...BEFORE YOUR RAPTURE AFTER THE 7 YR TRIB.
( And you guys take that impossibility off the table)
2) the ac kills all refusing the mark.
The ac is given power over the saints.
The saints OVERCOME VIA MARTYRDOM.
( ALL LISTED IN REV 12 AND 13)
( MAKES "GOING THROUGH IT" IMPOSSIBLE)
3) The virgin parable alone makes postrib rapture impossible
(Why do you think postribbers change it's components)
4) Jesus taught pretrib rapture 4 separate times.
5) the setting BY JESUS, at the rapture is OPPOSITE your setting.
( EXACTLY OPPOSITE!!!!)

Your doctrine is IMPOSSIBLE

100% IMPOSSIBLE.

 

[Psalm1]

It takes more then one verse to put things together..

1 Corrinthians 15: 50-

Now this I say Brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. Behold I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality. So when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written "Death is swallowed up in victory. "O Death where is your sting? O Hades, where is your victory?"




So lets go through the passage:

1st Paul says:
" Now this I say Brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven; nor does corruption inherit incorruption."

Here he says that our current bodies" flesh and blood" cannot enter the kingdom of heaven and cannot be eternal.

2nd Paul says:

"Behold I tell you a mystery: We shall not all sleep but we shall all be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,"



"we shall not all sleep" that means we shall not all experience death that’s what people who are ruptured will never experience. And when we are raptured our bodies will be changed "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye" that’s instantly, more evidence of the nature of the rapture. Putting it all together it is saying that both the living AND THE DEAD will be changed in an instant this links the rapture to a resurrection, which is the first resurrection. So the rapture and the first resurrection is the same event but Living Christians will experience the first resurrection as the rapture.



3rdly Paul says:

"at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed."



Now he goes on to explain when the rapture/ Ist resurrection will occur. "at the last trumpet", Last Trumpet?? What last trumpet? If you can look in Revelation 8 you will find the last trumpets. There are 7 soundings. have a read of them and you will see the wrath of God being poured out onto the earth.. Now of the last sounding it is written:


Revelation 10:7
"but in the days of the sounding of the seventh angel, when he is about to sound, the MYSTERY of God would be finished, as He declared to His SERVENTS the PROPHETS. Yes and Paul was/is His servant and prophet.

So the rapture will happen at the last Trumpet this trumpet blast is also happens in scripture on the day of the second comming of My LORD Jesus..

Matthew 24:29 - Matthew 24:31
(Matthew 24:29-31) "¶ Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: {30} And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. {31} And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other."


All Praise The Ancient Of Days

Your mat 24 passage has angels gathering saints after the trib.
Angels gathering in heaven.
That CAN NOT be the Rapture.
It says IN MAT 24 "JESUS SENDS ANGELS"..."IN HEAVEN"
( THAT MEANS JESUS IS NOT PRESENT).

BTW " the last trump" is blown every year at the feast of trumpets.

 

[Psalm1]

thnx Gary. i plain old disagree and that's ok. Again, this is not any resolve as thousands on either side will believe what they want, and again... until it happens its an easy topic to debate to oblivion... which I wont get bated in doing... Yes Rev is Chronological in order with a few epilogues John inserted. i will say yes, He used imagery to explain what he could from the time he was living in.

You can toss out Daniels prophecy if you want too, as it just boils down to 3 different camps, Pre, post and Uturn...

This is what I believe and wont change my position just as you and others wont...

Daniel's prophecy of the "70 weeks" (Daniel 9:24-27). In this prophecy, "weeks" represent "sevens" of years. While 69 of these weeks (483 years) cover history from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the crucifixion of Jesus, a final 7-year period (the 70th week)

very easy to count and know exactly when Jesus promise to return .. there is no mystery, there is no surprise that anyone should be "taken off guard"

Revelation 1:7: "Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen."
Matthew 24:27: "For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Blessings to you brother, no real need to try and educate me on your interpretation, we can agree to disagree..

Yes
It even says " one week, and in the middle of that week, the temple is descecrated".
Plain as day.

 

[KH777]

Your mat 24 passage has angels gathering saints after the trib.
Angels gathering in heaven.
That CAN NOT be the Rapture.
It says IN MAT 24 "JESUS SENDS ANGELS"..."IN HEAVEN"
( THAT MEANS JESUS IS NOT PRESENT).

BTW " the last trump" is blown every year at the feast of trumpets.

Yes and they even called it that....The Feast of Trumpets, or Yom Teruah, is directly associated with "the last trump" primarily through Jewish tradition and eschatology. During the observance, a shofar is blown 100 times, with the final, longest, and most climactic blast referred to in ancient tradition as the "Last Trump" (or Tekiah Gedolah)

 

[Psalm1]

i also meant to add yes, i do agree that Revelations, seals, trumpets and vials overlap....meaning one doesn't end if another one starts...

When I got saved, it was in a amil church ( historicist view).
the End times study really interested me, So I began to buy books and read my Bible. on my own.
And I really wanted to get to the bottom of everything.
My amil pastor, and the music minister wanted me to read the book that they were reading, which was mainly about Daniel.
And it was thicker than my Bible and I thought to myself. God cannot be that complicated.

when I saw "trib such as the world has never seen and never will"
I knew for a fact amil was a rabbit trail.
...as a brand new believer.

I thank God I was not fooled by that crafty doctrine.

I now watch them deny Israel, the Jews , and the bible

 

[Psalm1]

Yes and they even called it that....The Feast of Trumpets, or Yom Teruah, is directly associated with "the last trump" primarily through Jewish tradition and eschatology. During the observance, a shofar is blown 100 times, with the final, longest, and most climactic blast referred to in ancient tradition as the "Last Trump" (or Tekiah Gedolah)

....and the entire audience knew at that time what the last trump was.

 

[KH777]

When I got saved, it was in a amil church ( historicist view).
the End times study really interested me, So I began to buy books and read my Bible. on my own.
And I really wanted to get to the bottom of everything.
My amil pastor, and the music minister wanted me to read the book that they were reading, which was mainly about Daniel.
And it was thicker than my Bible and I thought to myself. God cannot be that complicated.

when I saw "trib such as the world has never seen and never will"
I knew for a fact amil was a rabbit trail.
...as a brand new believer.

I thank God I was not fooled by that crafty doctrine.

I now watch them deny Israel, the Jews , and the bible

Awesome Psalm1...ans Likewise, I had to follow pastor alans verse by verse and study along ... as He has a degree in Greek and the 1% he pulls from Scripture and translates definitely has been eye /spirit opening. Again many will cherry pick certain versus, many think we have been in the trib already, many think we are in the 6th seal...and again..ok for the disagreement. It doesn't change that these are my brothers and sisters and salvation.

 

[Psalm1]

Yes and they even called it that....The Feast of Trumpets, or Yom Teruah, is directly associated with "the last trump" primarily through Jewish tradition and eschatology. During the observance, a shofar is blown 100 times, with the final, longest, and most climactic blast referred to in ancient tradition as the "Last Trump" (or Tekiah Gedolah)

About 10 years ago, I looked intensely at the bride/ groom dynamic.
A huge game changer.
We pretribbers are the ONLY end times warriors that go there.
I have never seen a postribber go there.
Never.
The bride/groom dynamic is tge prism heaven looks through and no other position is even aware of the significance.
That study led me to the "other wife" in the bible. The Jewish wife. Not bride, but wife.
She is seen in several places.
Ruth / hosea/ Gomer/ Boaz/ Naomi.

Ok without those 2ccomponents, romans 9 -11, Rev 5 ( kinsman redeemer), and the purpose of the rapture, the 7 yr trib, and the wedding parables, and rev 14 the Jewish dynamic, will never ever be understood.

IOW, we pretribs leave every other position in the dust big time.

The actual heart of end times is not even on the table.
The bible is bride /groom/wife centered.
Postribbes are trib centered....with Jesus as a indirect component.

The bible ends with the bride and HOLY SPIRIT calling out to the groom.
MARANOTHA!!!!
COME LORD JESUS!!!!!

If that doesn't move somebody, they are walking dead.

 

[KH777]

Awesome Psalm1...ans Likewise, I had to follow pastor alans verse by verse and study along ... as He has a degree in Greek and the 1% he pulls from Scripture and translates definitely has been eye /spirit opening. Again many will cherry pick certain versus, many think we have been in the trib already, many think we are in the 6th seal...and again..ok for the disagreement. It doesn't change that these are my brothers and sisters and salvation.

I also have to say, very different then just pulling a strongs translation on word studies...

 

[Psalm1]

I constantly hear " I was pretrib then I studied the bible"

I make it a point for them to convert me to their position.

" ok.... post a verse for us" ...since they are now "correctly" bible centered.

Crickets.

 

[GaryA]

thnx Gary. i plain old disagree and that's ok. Again, this is not any resolve as thousands on either side will believe what they want, and again... until it happens its an easy topic to debate to oblivion... which I wont get bated in doing... Yes Rev is Chronological in order with a few epilogues John inserted. i will say yes, He used imagery to explain what he could from the time he was living in.

You can toss out Daniels prophecy if you want too, as it just boils down to 3 different camps, Pre, post and Uturn...

This is what I believe and wont change my position just as you and others wont...

Daniel's prophecy of the "70 weeks" (Daniel 9:24-27). In this prophecy, "weeks" represent "sevens" of years. While 69 of these weeks (483 years) cover history from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem to the crucifixion of Jesus, a final 7-year period (the 70th week)

very easy to count and know exactly when Jesus promise to return .. there is no mystery, there is no surprise that anyone should be "taken off guard"

Revelation 1:7: "Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him. And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him. Even so, Amen."
Matthew 24:27: "For as the lightning comes from the east and shines as far as the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.

Blessings to you brother, no real need to try and educate me on your interpretation, we can agree to disagree..

As you wish; however, if you change your mind - or, if anyone else is curious or interested - this is what I believe concerning the 70 weeks of Daniel:

Seventy Weeks

 

[GaryA]

I constantly hear " I was pretrib then I studied the bible"

I make it a point for them to convert me to their position.

You will never be converted to any position unless you are actually willing to actively and sincerely consider what you are being shown and try to look at it and understand it from the perspective of that position. Having a closed mind will not help you one little bit...

 

[Psalm1]

You will never be converted to any position unless you are actually willing to actively and sincerely consider what you are being shown and try to look at it and understand it from the perspective of that position. Having a closed mind will not help you one little bit...

If it is exposed as impossible ( which a baby in christ with a bible can do) then it gets rejected.
All truth is revealed.
It is not mental by some guy with a changed bible.

You are demonstrating that when the bible contradicts you, you ignore it.
Then accuse others of not having an open mind.