Secret Rapture or Second Coming?
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...or better yet, the rapture, (being the groom gathering His bride), but a wedding parable with a groom, and Gary saying there is no bride.
I have yet to see a postribber NOT change the components of the virgins parable.
Oh, good heavens no - I am saying that there is only one more coming/return of Christ - the Second Coming of Christ. And that, all associated end times prophetic 'events' will occur - in their proper order - at that time. He does not come - then go away - then come back again later. The very next time He appears, He is here-to-stay - to set up His kingdom on the earth and rule for 1000 years.
Take a look at the chart on this web page:
Every verse/passage listed in this table is referring to the same exact [overall] 'event' - the Second Coming of Christ.
I have a similar view and approach to 'back and forth' - friendly discussion can be helpful/useful, debate usually degrades everything quickly and gets nowhere fast - and generally will refuse to continue when the mudslinging and name-calling starts to destroy everything in sight - when people get off-topic and start insulting the others they are "discussing" the topic with instead of keeping focus on the topic itself.
I very much appreciate it "when calmer heads prevail" (it sometimes seems quite rare) rather than when the hot-head-know-it-alls trample a thread, rip it apart, and beat it to death. I always feel better about the time spent discussing something with a "calmer head" - trying to discuss anything with a "hot-head-know-it-all" seems much more a waste of time and effort. So, I very much appreciate your approach.
I am "passionate" about the things I believe; however, I also use a lot of emphasis when I am not actually angry or "yelling" or anything like that - so, please do not mistake it for anything over-the-top.
There are folks on here that I have had great disagreements with - yet, at the same time, I like the 'persona' that they project on here. I can disagree with someone while liking the person themselves. Sometimes - it is because I truly care - that I am so "passionate" in trying to get something across to others.
I would rather discuss than debate - and, always try to encourage calm sincere "level-headed" discussion on topics-that-matter.
I will address your explanation questions in a future post.
I think you may encounter difficulties in discussing this issue. Certain individuals are aggressive to the point of abusive in their replies. Good luck.
QUOTEFirst of all KH777 - welcome to the CC forums.
There are a number of 'shifts' in the Olivet Discourse. Please look carefully at the 'Comments' column of the chart on this web page:
Please take note of the fact that the phrase 'that day and hour' is referring back to the appearance of Christ described in verses 30-31. There is no complete separation of thought or topic at verse 36 - that verse and the ones directly after are intrinsically tied to earlier verses in the passage. The phrase 'coming of the Son of man' in verse 37 is referring directly to the same exact event described in verse 30 with the phrase 'Son of man coming'.
In the 'grammar of the language', the word 'that' (in/with the phrase 'that day and hour') in verse 36 cannot be "assigned" to a non-mentioned idea pulled out of nowhere - it has to (it must) refer to something already and previously mentioned in the passage - there are no two ways about it. And, that 'something' is the Second Coming of Christ - described in verses 30-31 - earlier in the passage.
And, if you wish to ascribe various events of the End Time Scenario to these separate "parts"/"points" of Jewish marriage tradition - then, you must also define in precision terms exactly when-and-how-and-why each of these apply to the Bride of Christ (the 'Church') throughout history - before-during-and-after the rapture.
If you equate the 'Feast' part to be 7 years - do you equate the 'Separation' part to be ~360 years? How did/does this apply to the 'Church' in history?
If you 'compare scripture with scripture' - I believe you will find that the time frame of the "seven days" in the 'Feast' part described above is identically the same as what is described in Ezekiel 39:9 in the context of the passage - which time frame and context are also found in Revelation 19:19-21 - please read them both very carefully.
You see - the problem 'pre-trib' folks have with comparing the Jewish marriage tradition with the End Times Scenario is that they assume that the end times events will occur exactly-and-precisely as the Jewish marriage tradition would dictate and did occur in times past. But, this is not the case. While the pattern may exist, the specific details concerning the way it actually occurs during/in the End Times Scenario are not identically the same.
Consider:
The 'rapture' IS the marriage.
What is described in this passage IS the marriage supper.
Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God; 18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great. 19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army. 20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
Everything in the Jewish marriage tradition is "represented" by 'events' of a different nature in the reality of 'events'. The "picture" is bigger/larger and the way you look at it in the context of scripture must take this into account. You cannot think about it like a man does - because, anything involving "God's time frame" requires a more "expanded" way of thinking. Remember:
Isaiah 55:
8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
The pattern may exist - but the 'details' are different where the 'events' are concerned.
In the Jewish marriage tradition, the groom takes his bride to her [new] permanent home - not somewhere else for 7 years first...
No one is taken to heaven for 7 years. The 'permanent' home is on Earth - for the next 1000 years.
And, most important of all - 'pre-trib' folks have the penchant to [want to] completely separate prophecy concerning 'Israel' from prophecy concerning [the] 'Church' - except - they want to apply the Jewish marriage tradition directly to the [Christian] Church - the body of Christ - the Bride of Christ.
Why exactly is that???
The 'marriage' of Christ to His Bride - His 'Church' - is a Christian marriage and not a Jewish marriage.
Why would you think that it should precisely follow the Jewish marriage tradition in every detail? After all, He is not marrying Israel...
"Food for thought..."
(At this point, this post is near the per-post character limit - the rest of your post will have to be addressed in a future post.)
"In the Jewish marriage tradition, the groom takes his bride to her [new] permanent home - not somewhere else for 7 years first...
No one is taken to heaven for 7 years. The 'permanent' home is on Earth - for the next 1000 years."
This is way off.
The Jewish wedding and betrothal have PARALLELS to the groom/betrothal/ bride/ wife dynamics.
Any analogy by Jesus, can be marred, by either changing it, omitting components of the analogy, or overthinking it.
What you NEED it to convey, is some IDEA that Jesus, upon fetching his bride, CONTINUES ON THE WHERE THE BRIDE ORIGINATED.....AHEM...HER HOUSE/EARTH.
See how reforming Jesus analogy to a doctrine is destructive to Jesus's message?
You CHANGE the bible, trying to defend a tired doctrine that a babe in Christ with a UNCHANGED bible can easily expose.
FACTUALLY, and HONESTLY, Jesus takes his bride to THE EXACT same place He prophesied at the last supper.
Pssst....it aint back to her home/ earth.
The "postrib rapture uturn" doctrine nailed back into that coffin it came out of.( by Jesus unmolested words)
(Unless Jesus was confused)
Postrib rapture and uturn = Literally a made up impossibility.
(Just one of many)
Thankyou again Gary and I appreciate your response. I agree with "calmer heads prevail" and friendly discussion etc, and i do appreciate your meek approach and passion on things you believe - same as I, and that's where our Lord would want us to be. I take revelations literal, not allegorical... I believe it is in order. The church is not mentioned after vs 4, we are gone, before the first seal.. The Church is the bride of Christ Ephesians 5:22-32 and yes the trib is about Jesus (Kinsman redeemer) holding the title deed, bought legally/ paid for legally and the trib is taking the earth back, and the eviction process... the promise to save a remnant of the Jews to fulfill his ultimate promise and prophesy to Rule for a thousand years... As far as the 7 churches mentioned, although yes represented a certain timeframe in history, i believe is the spiritual conditions present in all churches, seven distinct periods of church history, and timeless messages for believers can all be found in todays church- perhaps Laodicea... / Be like Philadelphia.. Thanks again for your responses... i do appreciate your humility and rare to see in todays "church" We can and will disagree and thats is ok, If Im wrong, then i will be a martyr, and wear the crown proudly, if Im right... i will be spared and will also ware a different crown proudly but will also be humble and respect the martrys during the trib...
Oh yes indeed.
We have been called Satan, the devil, and ABOUT 99% of the time, personal nonsensical, rabbit trails are invoked due to making you guys go against the bible. ( it is a frustrating job for postribbers when the bible is invoked)
I can feel you guys frustration when I point out what the bible actually says under honest evaluation.
Always debate "concept vs concept"
That will help you stay away from personal attacks.
Postribber methodology is to attack the messenger, via "error by association"
( since they 100% fail in attempting to line up scripturally)
DARBY, DARBY, DARBY, DARBY, LAHAYE LAHAYE, LAHAYE, SCOFIELD, SCOFIELD , SCOFIELD, SCOFIELD......
ME;
BIBLE, BIBLE, BIBLE, BIBLE.
Try getting a NEW STARTING place.
Like a bible maybe????
Normally every "concept vs concept" debate is friendly.
I used to stay away from personal attacks by postribbers.
Now you will see me pushback.
I always let my challenger set the tone.
Friendly and lively discussion, is refreshing.
But if necessary I will put nastiness in its place.
It is up to postribbers.
QUOTE
"For example - I have actually heard people say that the 10 virgins were 'potential' candidates for [being] the bride - which is nonsense - in the proper context, the bride is already chosen. The 10 virgins are 'potential' attendees to the wedding. And, the parable has nothing whatsoever to do with who-is-in-the-bride - it has everything to do with who-will-be-at-the-wedding. Do you see why it is not a good idea to conflate the 'Bride' with those who make it through the door into the wedding before the door is shut? (Matthew 25:10 KJV)"
Ok, this is massive misunderstanding.
The 10 virgins are 10 believers.
Half are prepared, half unprepared.
Those wise ones have extra oil. ( extra Holy Spirit....as we see in parallel to the book of acts.)
....and as we see imparted via other believers ( "give us some of your oil")
By changing the parable , you are trying to make it fit a postrib rapture.
As i mentioned earlier, postribbers have never honestly interpreted the virgin parable.
They can not leave the components of the parable intact.
It is destructive to their doctrine.
Very destructive.
Yes historicist view is way off.
They have those goggles they see EVERYTHING THROUGH.
I have 90 % of them on ignore.
They are a total waste of time, and their mocking and nastiness goes perfect with their beliefs.
It is actually even worse than the postribber twisting.
agreed Psalm, as many typologies are provided, my favorite tiny detail most miss.
- The Invitation: In Genesis 7:1, God says to Noah, "Go into the ark, you and your whole family." Some Bible translations use the word "Come" instead of "Go," framing it as God personally inviting Noah and his family to join Him inside.
- The Closing: In Genesis 7:16, after everyone and the animals were inside, it states: "Then the Lord shut him in".
T
TruthDefender
Guest
I would say there is nothing secret about His 2nd coming. All will know!
Also, the account in Matt. and 1 Thess. are talking about the same thing, written by 2 different men. This is the end of time on earth. All will be rolled up, like a scroll, and burned with fire.
The sheep, on His right, will go to heaven with Him, and the goats will go to hell.
Yes indeed.
I see it over and over .
The intricate weaving of THE authenticy of Gods word.
The second epistle makes it more clear. Do you think God knew about the 'pre-trib' deception?
2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
I'm watching for the abomination of desolation, which happens in the midst of thee week. The first half of the week is tribulation, 1260 days, 42 months or time, times and half time. All three are mentioned. The second half is God's wrath.
Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
2 Thessalonians 2
1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
I'm watching for the abomination of desolation, which happens in the midst of thee week. The first half of the week is tribulation, 1260 days, 42 months or time, times and half time. All three are mentioned. The second half is God's wrath.
Revelation 6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.
15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?
Revelation 7
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;
10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.
11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,
12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.
17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
Yes, I know - used to it - a regular thing around here...
Some people on here seem to have an exaggerated need to put words in my mount (at times) - to make it sound like I said things I did not actually say - what else is new - it is just one of many 'tactics' people use when they cannot say anything constructive about the actual topic and feel like they have to throw insults at their "opponent" - it happens A LOT on here...
As to the first verse...
1 Thessalonians 5:
1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. 2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. 4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. 5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
Read and understand it in the greater context - it is only for those who are not looking for it that it will come as a thief in the night.
I am not suggesting that we can or will know the day or hour; however, we know 'the times and the seasons' and are able to "see it coming"...
Hebrews 10:
23 Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised
24 And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: 25 Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching.As to the second verse...
2 Peter 3:
8 But, beloved, be not ignorant of this one thing, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day. 9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance. 10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13 Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
Keep in mind that the 'Day of the Lord' is two things - 1000 years (7th historical 'day') - and, the first [24-hour] day of that 1000 years - the context in scripture tells you which it is referring to or is focused on. Verse 8 above is telling us that what follows actually occurs over a 1000-year span of time. Verse 13 reinforces this as we know that Christ will reign on the earth for 1000 years - before the [old] earth is destroyed and a new heavens and earth will exist afterward. The earth will not be completely destroyed at the Second Coming of Christ; rather, it will occur at the end of the 1000 years. The description in verse 10 includes things that will not actually occur until the end of the 1000 years - the last statement in particular - the other two have a possible non-total-destruction plausibility for occurring at the Second Coming of Christ.
I hope this helps.
~
Here - let me fix that for you...
Precious friend @KH777, appreciate your kind and humble approach to discussing this
Very Controversial Bible Event. Here is what I respectfully 'disagree' with:
1) "saints return to earth"? God Gave Israel the hope of "inheriting the earth"
(Repeatedly in the OT and Matthew 5:5 AV), but:
The Body Of Christ Has A Heavenly Hope
“And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we Shall
Also Bear the image of The Heavenly.” (1 Corinthians 15:49 AV)
"For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we
have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the Heavens.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which
is from Heaven" (2 Corinthians 5:1-2 AV)
“Blessed be The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, Who Hath Blessed
us with All spiritual blessings in Heavenly Places in Christ...Which He Wrought
in Christ, When He Raised Him from the Dead, and Set Him At His Own Right
“And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together
in Heavenly Places In Christ Jesus” (Ephesians 2:6 AV)
“For our conversation is in Heaven; from Whence also we look
for The Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ:” (Philippians 3:20 AV)
“And The Lord Shall Deliver me from every evil work, and Will Preserve
me unto His Heavenly Kingdom: to Whom be Glory for ever and ever. Amen.”
(2 Timothy 4:18 AV)
Further study: God's Great GRACE ( Pre-trib ) Departure!2) "He comes FOR His Bride"?
a) The Body Of Christ is Not a woman (bride), But is God's New man:
"Having abolished in His Flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments
contained in ordinances; for to make In Himself of twain One New man, so
making Peace" (Ephesians 2:15 AV)
b) Further study: Is The Body The Bride Of Christ?
----------------------
And, precious friend(s), Please Be Very Richly Encouraged and Edified
In The Lord Jesus Christ and In His Precious Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided:
The Bible: The BIG Picture
Amen.
W
Waden21
Guest
Thankyou again, and yes I actually knew and understood this for many years. (mil reign, new heaven new earth etc ) again, i believe Revelations is literal and in order...
My general Q was for you and maybe i missed it is to explain the difference of knowing exactly when the second coming is.. (2 sets of 42 months, 7 years . 2520 days...as explained in Rev,) versus not knowing the day or the hour... seems to me, and although Im open to hear you all's view, not knowing the day or hour and knowing precisely (7 years) seems a bit contradictory to be the same event? I don't believe at the second coming, only those not watching will see? All will and yes before the mil reign...
My general Q was for you and maybe i missed it is to explain the difference of knowing exactly when the second coming is.. (2 sets of 42 months, 7 years . 2520 days...as explained in Rev,) versus not knowing the day or the hour... seems to me, and although Im open to hear you all's view, not knowing the day or hour and knowing precisely (7 years) seems a bit contradictory to be the same event? I don't believe at the second coming, only those not watching will see? All will and yes before the mil reign...
Thank you all for the kind back and forth, I do know what i could encounter when getting on this site, as it sits i have many friends and family that all have different views, opinions and intrepretations. At the end of the day, as Ive stated before... thousands leaning one way and another, but doesn't make it a salvation issue. I believe what i believe and you do the same, agree to disagree is ok and everyone is fallible. As long as we stay humble and take it to the Lord, I'm sure that places a smile on his heart in todays day and age... bless you all, no further responses needed..for me or from me...