Once Saved Always Saved?

cronjecj · Oct 27, 2011

2 Thessalonians 2:11
And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

1 Timothy 4:1
Now the Spirit speaketh expressly, that in the latter times some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of devils.

Matthew 24:10-11
At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.

2 Tim 4:2-4
Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.

Then...look at the following on predestined (the ones truly saved is God's elect)

Jude 4
For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

1 Peter 1:20
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you.

Ephesians 1:5
Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will.

Romans 9:11-13
For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth. It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger. As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

Romans 8:29-30
For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called, and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

Ephesians 1:11
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will.

Matthew 24:22
And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

Peace.

cronjecj · Oct 27, 2011

notIbutChrist said:

What is predestined?

Peace.

cronjecj · Oct 27, 2011

NiceneChristian said:

Sorry but that is a lie......and the rest is just flattery talk..

If you believe in Jesus Christ you have God's grace upon you.

Any one that believe unto the Son has eternal life thus God's wrath does not rest upon him anymore but he that rejects the Son is condemned already because God's wrath remaineth on him.

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Peace.

cronjecj · Oct 27, 2011

Romansonetwentytwo said:

Matthew 13:5 (KJV)
Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth.

Peace.

NiceneChristian · Oct 27, 2011

cronjecj said:

God saves everyone through his Son, the only difference is if you have His salvation in this life or not. It is in the "power of His Resurrection" which a person must participate in in order to be saved.

We are not interested in being "saved", we are interested in God. It is not Godly to be preoccupied with "being saved" God will judge those things for himself. We just have to be preoccupied with God.

Read this part of Phillipians 3. I think some Protestants have overlooked the meaning of these verses.

Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

Crossfire · Oct 27, 2011

cronjecj said:

I believe that in your zeal you misunderstood his statement. He wasn't denying that salvation comes from belief in the Son of God, in fact He affirms it, by stating "that is not the question" he was saying ""no one is denying". Expressions in English can be a little tricky sometimes.

cronjecj · Oct 27, 2011

NiceneChristian;577112[SIZE=4 said:

][/SIZE]God saves everyone through his Son (those who believe), the only difference is if you have His salvation in this life or not. It is in the "power of His Resurrection" which a person must participate in in order to be saved.

We are not interested in being "saved", we are interested in God. It is not Godly to be preoccupied with "being saved" God will judge those things for himself. We just have to be preoccupied with God.

Read this part of Phillipians 3. I think some Protestants have overlooked the meaning of these verses.

Php 3:10 That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;
Php 3:11 If by any means I might attain unto the resurrection of the dead.
Php 3:12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.
Php 3:13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.
Php 3:15 Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.

in Christ

cronjecj · Oct 27, 2011

Crossfire said:

I believe that in your zeal you misunderstood his statement. He wasn't denying that salvation comes from belief in the Son of God, in fact He affirms it, by stating "that is not the question" he was saying ""no one is denying". Expressions in English can be a little tricky sometimes.

Good.

in Christ

NiceneChristian · Oct 27, 2011

cronjecj said:

You're miscontrueing what I said. I was meaning to say that God does save everyone through Jesus, the problem is: Do we have his salvation here and now, or I will I suffer punishment in the life after because of our failure to obtain his saving power in this life? See, God does save everyone, its just that we are not supposed to judge God and ourselves being saved as though we are God, God is the judge and He will save whoever He wants to.

You limit God to human rationality to think that you can judge who is "saved" or who is "lost". We are not even supposed to judge those who are not in the Christian Faith (read 1 Cor 5). You are placing yourself in the place of God to think that. The fact is that God sent His Son to save all and so we are not the one's who take the glory of judging others or ourselves, we just place our trust in Him. It is God that judges... And its not about being "saved" or "lost", its about doing His will and loving God and the neighbor, not placing a stumbling block in front of others and ourselves.

cronjecj · Oct 27, 2011

NiceneChristian said:

You're miscontrueing what I said. I was meaning to say that God does save everyone through Jesus, the problem is: Do we have his salvation here and now, or I will I suffer punishment in the life after because of our failure to obtain his saving power in this life? See, God does save everyone, its just that we are not supposed to judge God and ourselves being saved as though we are God, God is the judge and He will save whoever He wants to.

You limit God to human rationality to think that you can judge who is "saved" or who is "lost". We are not even supposed to judge those who are not in the Christian Faith (read 1 Cor 5). You are placing yourself in the place of God to think that. The fact is that God sent His Son to save all and so we are not the one's who take the glory of judging other or even ourselves, we just place our trust in Him. Its not about being "saved" or "lost", its about doing His will and loving God.

Ok first off, God saves only those who believes in His Son.

How do you obtain His saving power?

Not anything related to judging at all but by faith in Jesus Christ we are saved.

in Christ

cronjecj · Oct 27, 2011

NiceneChristian said:

What are you talking about? it is in the word that whoever believes in God's Son is not condemned.

Peaaleeeease! We judge by right judgement out of the word of God.

1 Corinthians 2:15
The spiritual person judges all things, but is himself to be judged by no one.

John 7:24
Do not judge by appearances, but judge with right judgment.

Can a unbeliever do the will of God?

By believing we do the will of God, Love Him above all and thy neighbor as thyself.

in Christ

cronjecj · Oct 27, 2011

NeceneChristian, By doing the Fathers will by having faith in Christ is the result of been saved. It is the Holy Spirit that worketh in us and say Abba Father.

in Christ

Zilla64007 · Oct 27, 2011

cronjecj said:

2 Thessalonians 2:11 says NOTHING about never being saved to begin with... it discusses those that God have given over to a lie (v11). all of 2 thess is talking about the return of Christ... v3 EXPLICITLY states "do not be decieved by any means"... v12 is the condemnation of those who CHOSE to fall away, not they were never saved to begin with

this verse does not prove OSAS

YOU PROVED MY POINT WITH THIS VERSE. it says some will DEPART from the faith, EXACTLY LIKE HYMENAEUS, PHILETUS, AND ALEXANDER.

this verse does not prove OSAS... rather the exact opposite

same thing as the above verse... it proves conditional security, not OSAS

same thing as the two verses above. this PROVES one can fall away from the faith

the ONLY thing that has been predestined concerning false teachers is where they end up for their disobedience, NOT THEIR INDIVIDUAL LIVES. Cain was given the choice to either do good or evil in Genesis 4:1-7... he CHOSE to do evil. He was not predestined to be evil

this does not prove OSAS

this verse is COMPLETELY taken out of context!!

1 Peter 1:13-21
13 Therefore, preparing your minds for action, and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ.
14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance,
15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct,
16 since it is written, "You shall be holy, for I am holy."
17 And if you call on him as Father who judges impartially according to each one’s deeds, conduct yourselves with fear throughout the time of your exile,
18 knowing that you were ransomed from the futile ways inherited from your forefathers, not with perishable things such as silver or gold,
19 but with the precious blood of Christ, like that of a lamb without blemish or spot.
20 He was foreknown before the foundation of the world but was made manifest in the last times for the sake of you 21 who through him are believers in God, who raised him from the dead and gave him glory, so that your faith and hope are in God.

it was CHRIST that was foreknown before the world began

this verse does not prove OSAS

the context of Ephesians 1:1-5 discusses that salvation is predestined IN JESUS CHRIST... not that selected individuals are predestined to BE saved.

this does not prove OSAS

1. God does call, but it is NOT IRRESISTIBLE (Acts 7:51)
Romans 9 is not speaking about individuals... IT IS TALKING ABOUT TWO NATIONS.

this doe snot prove OSAS

Romans 8:28
And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.
verses 29-30 apply ONLY TO THOSE WHO LOVE HIM... IF ONE STOPS LOVING HIM, THESE VERSES NO LONGER APPLY.

this doe snot prove OSAS

I dont deny God's sovereignty... in fact, i completely affirm it.
You say we are predestined TO faith... this verse locates predestination "in Christ", and Ephesians says we are predestined THROUGH FAITH

1 Peter 1:5
Who are kept by the power of God through faith unto salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Romans 11:18-22
18 do not brag that you are better than those branches. But if you do brag—you do not sustain the root, but the root sustains you.
19 Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."
20 True enough; they were broken off by unbelief, but you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid.
21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, He will not spare you either.
22 Therefore, consider God's kindness and severity: severity toward those who have fallen, but God's kindness toward you—if you remain in His kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.

this does not prove OSAS

this says nothing about either salvation, or losing salvation. this verse has been taken completely out fo context, just like every other verse Calvinists tend to use for their Gnostic belief system

this doe snot prove OSAS

2 Peter 2:1
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly bring in destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, and will bring swift destruction on themselves.

2 Timothy 2:12
if we endure, we will also reign with Him; if we deny Him, He will also deny us

Ezekiel 18:24
24 But when a righteous person turns from his righteousness and practices iniquity, committing the same abominations that the wicked do, will he live? None of the righteous acts he did will be remembered. He will die because of the treachery he has engaged in and the sin he has committed.

Hebrews 6:4-8
4 For it is impossible to renew to repentance those who were once enlightened, who tasted the heavenly gift, became companions with the Holy Spirit,
5 tasted God's good word and the powers of the coming age,
6 and who have fallen away, because, to their own harm, they are recrucifying the Son of God and holding Him up to contempt.
7 For ground that has drunk the rain that has often fallen on it, and that produces vegetation useful to those it is cultivated for, receives a blessing from God.
8 But if it produces thorns and thistles, it is worthless and about to be cursed, and will be burned at the end.

Hebrews 2:1-4
1 For this reason we must pay much closer attention to what we have heard, so that we do not drift away from it.
2 For if the word spoken through angels proved unalterable, and every transgression and disobedience received a just penalty,
3 how will we escape if we neglect so great a salvation? After it was at the first spoken through the Lord, it was confirmed to us by those who heard,
4 God also testifying with them, both by signs and wonders and by various miracles and by gifts of the Holy Spirit according to His own will.

a Christian, if he turns to false doctrines, seducing spirits, and continues in sin, forfeits his salvation.

cronjecj · Oct 27, 2011

Sorry but it does not prove much either and i don't normally read loooooooooooooong posts even though i read most of it, just throwing scriptures back at me.

Those who depart from their faith in the end did not have deep faith \ deepness of earth.

Matthew 13:5 (KJV)
Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth.

They did not truly believed in the first place.

in Christ

Zilla64007 · Oct 27, 2011

that simply tells me you dont care what the bible has to say...
the only thing you care about is what the next popular pastor has to say.

you go ahead and continue in your sin. see where that gets you with God

Zilla64007 · Oct 27, 2011

and Demas DID BELIEVE... he WAS a true believer... but he fell away because of his love of the world

and dont resort to the No True Scotsman illogical fallacy... it doesn't work.

cronjecj · Oct 27, 2011

2 Timothy 4:10
For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia

Philemon
Marcus, Aristarchus, Demas, Lucas, my fellowlabourers.

Colossians 4:14
Luke, the beloved physician, and Demas, greet you

Demas fell away because he had weak faith but does not mean he was saved and then all of a sudden unsaved because once we truly believe with deep roots no one can pluck us from our Fathers hand.

in Christ

Zilla64007 · Oct 27, 2011

it says he fell awy because of his love for the world...

he HAD FAITH. he DEPARTED FROM IT.

so did King Saul

zone · Oct 27, 2011

cronjecj said:

Sorry but that is a lie......and the rest is just flattery talk..

If you believe in Jesus Christ you have God's grace upon you.

Any one that believe unto the Son has eternal life thus God's wrath does not rest upon him anymore but he that rejects the Son is condemned already because God's wrath remaineth on him.

John 3:18
He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Peace.

hello Cron
i have enjoyed your posts.
nice to meet you.
keep up the good work brother
zone.

Zilla64007 · Oct 27, 2011

OSAS is nothing more than a Calvinistic lie from Satan.

Once Saved Always Saved?

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