Calvinism is Gospel !

[HeIsHere]

But I explained in answer to your question, "Have you studied all 26 years that John Calvin lived in Geneva?" My answer was: "No. I have never claimed to have done so. Indeed, I came to believe the doctrines known by some as "Calvinism" long before I had even heard of a person called John Calvin. My limited knowledge of Calvin himself is the reason I have stayed well clear of the matter of Calvin and Servetus." I haven't been arguing one way or the other about whether Calvin Calvin was guilty of putting Servetus to death, and that is why I said "supposed misdeeds", because I know that not everybody believes that he was guilty. Anyway, it now seems as if your attention has switched from my use of the word "misdeeds" to my use of "supposed."

Okay, well let us put that aside, back to Romans 8:29 and the correct view, non Calvinist, in context reading of the text.
I will post shortly,

 

[HeIsHere]

What the TULIP sect keeps pushing as "Irresistible grace" amounts to God casting a spell (as in witchcraft) upon a person to make that person do his will. The concept is straight from the classroom of the occult of the demonic thinking. It is declaring that God is not really better than Satan.

And, we always wondered why 'irresistible grace' sat wrong with you when someone tried to explain it to you. It is the demonic way of doing things. "Casting Spells" to have someone do your will.

........

A ton of esoteric baggage in TULIP... a special bequeathed "Gnosis" only to some before they hear the Gospel so they can hear the Gospel.

Oh right, God knows before hand who was going to reject .. that explains it .. so to those He knows will accept, He more or less gives an irresistible offer which they cannot refuse.

How can anyone believe that nonsense... just look at the life and words of Christ Jesus.. seriously!!

 

[rogerg]

No, but the fact that I am unable to do so is not evidence that out of all the Christians who hold or have held Arminian beliefs, not one ever fell into grievous sin.

Archbishop William Laud October 7, 1573, to January 10, 1645. He held Arminian beliefs and ordered Calvinist writers and preachers to be imprisoned, tortured, and physically mutilated (such as slicing off their ears) for opposing his religious policies.

 

[Cameron143]

I thought about it. I'm open to the idea of a seal being different, but considering Ephesians 4:30

Ephesians 4:30​

​

30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

This is a more direct scripture describing the Holy Spirit and linking it up with the seal metaphor. In this verse, it's speaking of the Holy spirit indwelling you. And then it says it's by this grieving Holy spirit, that you have been sealed. I think the seal is a metaphor for security rather than position of it being outside of you.

It is by the Holy spirit that grieves... I'd say that's the indwelling... by which you've been sealed.

Still conflating two different things. Nothing is said in the verse about indwelling. We are simply commanded not to grieve the Spirit and Paul gives the reminder that we are sealed by Him. That sealing is the promise of the Father which is the baptism WITH the Spirit by Christ Himself and spoken of in Matthew 3:11...and He will baptize with the Holy Ghost and with fire...

 

[Magenta]

I don't see why you should have thought I was trivializing anything.

Probably because she trivializes Scripture.

 

[Genez]

excuse me . I hate my pc and my fat fingers. The word of God which is the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the power of God for salvation. Paul said in Romans 13:8
Also if God fully knows who will be saved, do we still consider the ministry of reconciliation( 2cor 5:11-21) as something to do.

The mystery is....

How could an omniscient God create all men with the freedom to choose whom they will serve?
When God would have to know He was creating someone to hate Him?

The mystery's secret is to be found in the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

 

[biblestudent78]

I absolutely disagree with what you wrote.

"the processes of becoming a Christian is the beginning not the end"

I was describing how one receives salvation as a gift not in how you conduct yourself.

Christ, as the Alpha and Omega, is the first and last in so many ways.

He is the “author and finisher” of our faith (Hebrews 12:2), signifying that He begins it and carries it through to completion.

He is the totality, the sum and substance of the Scriptures, both of the Law and of the Gospel (John 1:1, 14).

He is the fulfilling end of the Law (Matthew 5:17), and He is the beginning subject matter of the gospel of grace
through faith, not of works (Ephesians 2:8-9).

He is found in the first verse of Genesis and in the last verse of Revelation. He is the first and last, the all in all of salvation,
from the justification before God to the final sanctification of His people.

Please don't ever move anywhere other than firmly in Christ.

The Christian life has no cards to play in that game of salvation.

You are conflating the Unity of Christ and his church with the mission attached to the converted. The "works" of Paul's concern is an attempt to minister to Jews, Greeks and Romans whose religions were only works. By defining the commands of Jesus as works you deny what conversion his Lordship. It means becoming one with Christ who healed, provided reconciliation, ate with sinners, and described in great detail that it in the life of the Christian there comes attached a mission. When one claims a salvation without conversion, without dramatic change without any obedience it is anti-Christian effectively claiming is not needed. Salvation is both to you and through you. It must be both. A form of Christianity that depends totally on the work and mission of Jesus but refuses to participate in the work and mission of Jesus because Martin Luter et al told you it is a sin of works is not anything recognizable in the New Testament. It denies Christ's teachings, warnings and requirement but finds a comfortable, self-serving lifestyle alternative.

Using Ephesians 2 plays no part in the conversation. All agree that the Gospel of if Grace but that is the beginning, not the full picture nor the mission. The power of the Gospel is faith driven conversion from self-service, self-importance and self-comfort to full participation in the loving work of the Gospel of Christ. Christ used parable after parable and direct commands that he summarized this way: those who stay faithful to the end (of their life) will be saved. The parable of the Good Samaritan is a condemnation of religion of personal "piety" that ignores what loving your neighbor entails. Conversion is a change of heart because the single fulcrum of it is that your faith must drive your live not just your thoughts (theology) Parable of the fig tree where unproductive fig branches will be cut off and burned should bring inspiration. Matt 24:45 is about a servant (aka Christ follower) who must live consistently and act with integrity to please the master. The wise builder in Matt 7 is a parable about Christ followers. One builder builds on a rock, while the other builds on sand. When the storms come, the house on the sand collapses. The warning: It is not enough to simply hear Jesus’s teachings; one must actually apply them. Among the most coherent statements about what is required of Christians is the entire chapter of Matt 25. I can hear the excuses at judgement: But Jesus we thought you were happy just to have us sit in our pews and sing your praises. We were told as long as we "just believed" you had to grant us heaven.....I spent an entire minute in church walking down the aisle and making room for you in my heart......."I was told if I believed "right" I was saved and that doing all that grubby stuff for people was the government's job......

Jesus may say, I told you in detail what I commanded you to do?
Be light – Let your light shine Matt 5:16
Be salt Matt 5:17
Be a servant Matt 23:11
Be a reconciler Matt 5:23-24, 18:15-17
Be on guard against greed and sin Luke 12:15, Matt 26:41
Take sin very seriously (Matthew 5:29–30)
Be perfect (in love) Matt 5:48
Be forgiving Matt 18:21-22
Be repentant Matt 4:17
Be born again John 3:5
Be the person who will go the second mile Matt 5:41
Be the person who can turn the other cheek Matt 5:39
Be the person who always gives to those who ask Matt 5:42
Be the person who will always loan their stuff Matt 5:42
Be the person who seeks Gods Kingdom first Matt 6:33
Be the person who honors their marriage Mark 10:6-9
Be the person who takes communion Matt 26:26-27
Be poor in spirit Matt 5:3
Be meek Matt 5:5
Be the person who hungers and thirsts for righteousness Matt 5:6
Be merciful Matt 5:7
Be pure of heart Matt 5:8
Be peacemakers 5:9
Be the person who comes to Jesus for rest Matt 11:28

Heart of the New Person
Love and pray for your enemies Matt 5:44-46
The Golden Rule Matt 7:12
Love God Matt 22:37-38
Love your neighbor as yourself Matt 22:39
Love one another as I have loved you John 13:34, John 15:12, John 15:17
Love and invite the poor into your life Luke 14:12-14
Show your love by:
Feeding the hungry and quenching the thirsty Matt 25:35
Inviting in the stranger Matt 25:35
Clothing the naked Matt 25:36
Visiting the sick Matt 25:36
Visiting those in prison Matt 25:36

Things the New Person should avoid
Make no oaths – don’t swear Matt 5:34, 37
Don’t judge others Matt 7:1
Don’t lust Matt 5:27-30
Don’t fear those that can kill the body Matt 10:28
Don’t store up treasures on earth Matt 6:19

The Mission of the New Person
Find and enter the narrow gate Matt 7:13-14
Ask God for more harvest workers Matt 9:37-38
Preach the Gospel Matt 28:19-20
Make disciples, baptize them and teach them to obey my commandments Matt 28:19-20
Let your light shine before all people (Matthew 5:16)
Be reconciled to one another (Matthew 5:23–24)
Take sin very seriously (Matthew 5:29–30)

 

[Genez]

Archbishop William Laud October 7, 1573, to January 10, 1645. He held Arminian beliefs and ordered Calvinist writers and preachers to be imprisoned, tortured, and physically mutilated (such as slicing off their ears) for opposing his religious policies.

Having imprisoned, tortured, and physically mutilated (such as slicing off their ears) for opposing his religious policies?

That is why Calvinists having come out of such a horrible notion of what the main church had the power to do, made the evils Calvinism seem benign in comparison. That is why many were able to accept TULIP without question.

Many were still Scripturally illiterate.
But it broke away from the evil empire of the RCC.

.......

 

[biblestudent78]

I have no idea how this post relates to anything I said.

I won’t use word salad, because it kinda sounds ok. Just not in this thread.

This was not addressed to you.

 

[Genez]

It is nothing to do with casting spells or the occult. It is more linked to what we read in the Messianic psalm, Psalm 110:

(Psa 110:1) A Psalm of David. The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou at my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool.
(Psa 110:2) The LORD shall send the rod of thy strength out of Zion: rule thou in the midst of thine enemies.
(Psa 110:3) Thy people shall be willing in the day of thy power, in the beauties of holiness from the womb of the morning: thou hast the dew of thy youth.

Are you aware of what the concept of Irresistible Grace alleges?
It is a major part of TULIP.

Your words simply cite the outcome of salvation.
Not the means to get someone saved, as Irresistible Grace puts forth.

 

[HeIsHere]

Not sure how much context you are thinking of, but in the earlier part of Romans 8, Pau has been talking about the things that the law could not do, comparing "walking according to the flesh" to "walking according to the Spirit." He goes on to talk of the absolute necessity of the Holy Spirit in a Christian, the fact that those "in Christ" are sons of God and heirs together with Christ, suffering in this word, and the glories of heaven. As for the more immediate context of the two verses I quoted, here they are with the surrounding verses:


(Rom 8:26 NKJV) Likewise the Spirit also helps in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit Himself makes intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
(Rom 8:27) Now He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He makes intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
(Rom 8:28) And we know that all things work together for good to those who love God, to those who are the called according to His purpose.
(Rom 8:29) For whom He foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brethren.
(Rom 8:30) Moreover whom He predestined, these He also called; whom He called, these He also justified; and whom He justified, these He also glorified.

This has actually been answered in this thread.

Romans 8:29

Let me offer some context that Calvinism doesn't use because their understanding of Scripture limits that context. In Romans 8:28-28, Paul is speaking of true OT believers. That's the flow of the whole book in context, and the more immediate context is the same. They were foreknown as believers already, and were given to the Son by the Father, so that He would not lose one of them, thus predestined to be what? Conformed to the the image of His Son. These were already appointed to eternal life as true OT believers, and were thus foreknown by God, but would need to make the transition to the Gospel message as believers. These He also called (with the Gospel), His Sheep will hear His voice. Those He called, He also justified [in Christ, Pentecost and beyond] also see Romans 3:25. And those He justified, He glorified.

It's actually fits perfectly. If you think that sounds wrong, consider that Paul tells us who is foreknown in Romans 11:2.

The problem with the Calvinist over and over again is this individualized lens through which they read these proof texts.

The word foreknew is in the aorist indicative tense... which just mean previously/already happened.

Who did God foreknow >>> the Jews.

Also remember these letters are eschatological and Paul is dealing with the strife that is present in that community between the Jews and the Gentiles.

One thing is for sure >>>> this does NOT in any way support this idea of God picking people arbitrarily and then causing them so believe.

 

[brightfame52]

OK.... Agreed.

"So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God." ​

​

Romans 10:17​

So you agree that Jesus saves sinners He died for before they believe ?

 

[brightfame52]

Who did God foreknow >>> the Jews.

Not all of them, just the ones God had predestinated along with some Gentiles Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

You think Rom 8:29-30 is just jews ?

 

[HeIsHere]

Not all of them, just the ones God had predestinated along with some Gentiles Rom 8:29-30

29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

30 Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

You think Rom 8:29-30 is just jews ?

You can include His knowledge that the Gentiles would also come in, but the point is those who believed, (NOT gifted belief..eisegesis) are the ones who are predestined to be conformed.

 

[Genez]

This has actually been answered in this thread.

Romans 8:29



The problem with the Calvinist over and over again is this individualized lens through which they read these proof texts.

The word foreknew is in the aorist indicative tense... which just mean previously/already happened.

Who did God foreknow >>> the Jews.

Also remember these letters are eschatological and Paul is dealing with the strife that is present in that community between the Jews and the Gentiles.

One thing is for sure >>>> this does NOT in any way support this idea of God picking people arbitrarily and then causing them so believe.

Jesus Christ demonstrated that even though He is God,
He was able to deny Himself his powers to be as God, to make Himself become as a man.

Philippians 2:6-8
​

Who, existing in the form of God,
did not consider being equal with God something to be grasped,
but emptied himself
by taking the form of a slave,
by becoming in the likeness of people.
And being found in appearance like a man,
he humbled himself
by becoming obedient to the point of death,
that is, death on a cross.​

In eternity past.
In that state of making himself become as a man.
Then Jesus was put forth by the Father to create all the souls of mankind.
Having all eternity to do so...
Each one He created to love God like He loves God.

Since he was denying Himself of his power being omniscient?
All were created in His mind to be free to love God.
But, not to love God as in hard wiring them.


......

 

[brightfame52]

You can include His knowledge that the Gentiles would also come in, but the point is those who believed, (NOT gifted belief..eisegesis) are the ones who are predestined to be conformed.

In Rom 8:29 are there Gentiles in them He foreknew ? Yes or no

 

[Genez]

So you agree that Jesus saves sinners He died for before they believe ?

Jesus had done everything needed to save any person wanting to know God.

What would have prevented salvation from being possible?
Would have been if He refused to die on the Cross.

For if He were not slain before the foundations of the world?
No man would ever have been allowed to approach God for salvation.
There would be an everlasting barrier between man and God.

Jesus had done everything God required to save all sinners before they might believe.
So?
No man can now use the excuse that God could not accept them as they are.

 

[Genez]

In Rom 8:29 are there Gentiles in them He foreknew ? Yes or no

Romans 8:29

For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son,
that he might be the firstborn among many brothers and sisters.​

The 'first born' in the ancient culture indicated being the head of the household, just after the Father.

To be conformed to the image of His Son?
Meant to be bone of His bone and flesh of of His Glorified Resurrection Body.
A body just like His own!

AGAIN! That speaks of us, being the Bride of Christ!
It does not pertain to all believers who will believe in Jesus outside of the Church age.

For Moses is like John the Baptist. He is the friend of the Groom.
Moses will not be resurrected as the Bride of Christ.

 

[Magenta]

Romans 8 verse 29-30; Ephesians 1 verse 5 ~ Those God foreknew, He also predestined to be conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brothers. And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified. He predestined us for adoption as His sons through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will.

 

[brightfame52]

Jesus had done everything needed to save any person wanting to know God.

So then you dont believe Jesus saved all for whom He died b4 they believed. Then how is that Faith in Christ as Saviour ?