Romans 3:10-11 "There is none righteous, ...who understands, ...who seeks after God, no, not one;

[Dave123]

What does it really mean?

Romans 3:10-11 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.

The immediate context. Vs. 9 "We" Paul is referring to Jews. "Them" is referring to Gentiles. Both Jew and Gentile under the same condition. This is the bigger context also.

Romans 3:10-12, quotes Psalms 14 and Isaiah 53 in general.

Romans 3:13-18 Paul quotes Psalms 14.

Romans 3:23 quotes Isaiah 53:6 and other places Isaiah 53 overall is drawn from by Paul when making his point in Romans.

It's clear that many people 'seek God' who remain lost. It's how honestly one seeks the kingdom of God that separates the ones who find it from the ones who don't. There are many who "seek" to enter and will not be able to.

Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Read Psalm 14 for context to see what Paul was quoting in Romans 3.

Psalm 14:1-7 To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call on the Lord? There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous. You shame the counsel of the poor, But the Lord is his refuge. Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the Lord brings back the captivity of His people, Let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad.

How does one 'become corrupt' and 'turn aside' who was born that way already? Why does David say "the fool has said in his heart"? Why not 'all men have said in their heart...'? All these conditions and problems are qualified with "workers of iniquity" and basically Gentiles for the most part. This is how the Jews of that time would have understood it. It's not a Jewish problem, it's a Gentile problem.

It's clear that there is a possibility of righteousness within that same context, as God is near, or with them. "For God is with the generation of the righteous." That would be the Jews, how they seen themselves in that passage.

---------------
Interesting that Augustine interpreted " There is none who does good, No, not one" The "not one" as "except One", speaking of Jesus, which really fits the context of justification that Paul was pushing in Romans when he quoted it. Isaiah 53 and the surrounding context of Romans is clearly about that very same thing, Jesus being the justifier because he alone is righteous [by God's standards].

John Owen qualifies vs. 2-3 in chapter 3 with "all fools" from vs. 1. Practical atheists who persecute God.

Good article. Both Augustine and Owens quoted from this source.
Does Psalm 14 Apply to All of Humanity?
---------------

Romans 3:21-24 Since nobody can be justified by the works of the Law, Paul then offers the 'good news' of righteousness by faith for all those who believe.

The context is justification. Man lacks the moral ability to be righteous. To be declared righteous. To be justified by the Law. That's the way Paul was using it. Paul quotes Psalm 14 to show that both Jews and Gentiles are under sin. His main point in saying that, was that the Jews and Gentiles alike are in the same spiritual predicament. Paul makes it abundantly clear in Romans 3 and beyond that it's not a Gentile problem, but a "Jew and Gentile" problem.

To sum up Paul's point, vs. 23 of chapter 3 does a nice job of it.

23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Both Jew and Gentile ....) see vs 24-31 and into chapter 4 as the flow continues, using Abraham as an example [Who was imputed with Christ's righteousness].

See how the message is consistent if we understand that what is being emphasized is that man cannot justify himself? Why? Because there is none righteous, none that does good (Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19-John 15:5).

The context is justification and the ability to do good by righteous standards and justify ones self.

So why does Paul add "There is none who seeks after God." to His quote from the OT?

It would seem to be an odd thing to say if we take it at face value since Isaiah said this.

Isaiah 55:6 Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near. And other places Psalm 9:10, 22:46, 40:16, 1 Chronicles 28:9, Hosea 10:12, etc.

Paul adds "there is none who seeks after God" in Romans 3 for a reason when quoting Psalms, that reason is up for debate, but taking that statement literally and defining it on an island doesn't fit with the rest of Scripture. Since Psalms 14 and Isaiah 53 lays that definition on the Gentiles (Isaiah 53:4,6.). Paul was making clear that it's just as much a problem for Jews as it is for Gentiles.

Remember that even Peter said to be careful when examining Paul's letters and not to read into them any false ideas.

2 Peter 3:15-16 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

My opinion. To read into "there are none who seeks after Him", as being that man will never desire to be saved unless He is saved already, is just a very poor interpreting of Scripture, and must have a complete disregard for the context of the Bible. Justification is the context. Man cannot justify Himself. That's the point being made by Paul. That and that Jews and Gentiles were in the same boat. Nobody in the OT could do anything good or righteous, because it was all from the flesh, and not the Spirit. Not until the Holy Spirit indwelled believers could man produce the fruit of the Spirit. Thus, the quote, ...."As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.""

 

[Dave123]

Justification is the context of Paul's point in Romans. Many quote that passage in Romans 3 as proof of moral inability, but the inability is about justification, not ones ability to respond to the Gospel message positively. The context of what Paul is quoting in Psalms and Isaiah says the exact opposite of the Calvinistic interpretation of that passage in Romans, as does the context of Romans 3 and the flow of Paul's point. It says that the inability was the result of sin and rejecting God, and not something that they were born with. In short, the Calvinist interpretation of that passage doesn't fit that context at all. That would be the last passage Paul would want to quote to prove mans inability to respond to the Gospel from birth, because it says the exact opposite. See the OP for that passage that Paul was quoting. That would be, however, a passage that the Jewish people of that time would reference often as they believed that they were God's people and saved by physical heritage, and Gentiles were excluded. Understanding that, read Romans 3 again and you'll see Paul combatting that false idea. In fact, it's the whole flow of Romans to confront these kinds of false notions that were engrained into Jewish thinking of that time. In chapter four and beyond, Paul even goes into Abraham and how he was justified by faith, not by the Law, not by his physical heritage. The whole flow of the letter is justification.

 

[Mem]

"There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.""

Everyone seeks God looking for their off idea of God.

 

[tablet123]

Psa 14:3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Isa 59:16 And he saw that there was no man, and wondered that there was no intercessor: therefore his arm brought salvation unto him; and his righteousness, it sustained him.

There is none that does good.

And God said there was no man to make intercession because all have sinned and come short of the glory of God so their sins make them unqualified.

Rev 5:3 And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:4 And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon.
Rev 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.

But Jesus who is God manifest in the flesh is worthy to make intercession.

Rom 3:9 What then? are we better than they? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Rom 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Rom 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

Paul said both Jew and Gentile are under sin and there is none that seeketh after God.

So he is directing to both and of course he is for all people are the same in the sin department.

He is not pointing out something that only point to Israel but a sin condition that applies to all people.

Gal 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.
Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.
Gal 5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

It says no one seeks after God which it is speaking no one seeks after His goodness and ways.

So there is none righteous.

Which will apply to all people for all have sinned.

Until they do embrace God's ways led by the Spirit.

But before that time there is none that is righteous, or good.

Rom 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not.

Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

But it always applies there is none good when applied to the flesh.

But with the mind we serve the law of God led by the Spirit.

Which we can perform goodness but God gets the glory but we chose it that way because God intervened in our life.

 

[Dave123]

Everyone seeks God looking for their off idea of God.

Yep, it's called idolatry. People tend to eliminate in their minds the things that they don't like, or offend them, ands fill in those blanks with the things that they want god to be. Often times this is making a god in our their image.

 

[Soyeong]

What does it really mean?

Romans 3:10-11 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.

The immediate context. Vs. 9 "We" Paul is referring to Jews. "Them" is referring to Gentiles. Both Jew and Gentile under the same condition. This is the bigger context also.

Romans 3:10-12, quotes Psalms 14 and Isaiah 53 in general.

Romans 3:13-18 Paul quotes Psalms 14.

Romans 3:23 quotes Isaiah 53:6 and other places Isaiah 53 overall is drawn from by Paul when making his point in Romans.

It's clear that many people 'seek God' who remain lost. It's how honestly one seeks the kingdom of God that separates the ones who find it from the ones who don't. There are many who "seek" to enter and will not be able to.

Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

Read Psalm 14 for context to see what Paul was quoting in Romans 3.

Psalm 14:1-7 To the Chief Musician. A Psalm of David. The fool has said in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, They have done abominable works, There is none who does good. The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call on the Lord? There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous. You shame the counsel of the poor, But the Lord is his refuge. Oh, that the salvation of Israel would come out of Zion! When the Lord brings back the captivity of His people, Let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad.

How does one 'become corrupt' and 'turn aside' who was born that way already? Why does David say "the fool has said in his heart"? Why not 'all men have said in their heart...'? All these conditions and problems are qualified with "workers of iniquity" and basically Gentiles for the most part. This is how the Jews of that time would have understood it. It's not a Jewish problem, it's a Gentile problem.

It's clear that there is a possibility of righteousness within that same context, as God is near, or with them. "For God is with the generation of the righteous." That would be the Jews, how they seen themselves in that passage.

---------------
Interesting that Augustine interpreted " There is none who does good, No, not one" The "not one" as "except One", speaking of Jesus, which really fits the context of justification that Paul was pushing in Romans when he quoted it. Isaiah 53 and the surrounding context of Romans is clearly about that very same thing, Jesus being the justifier because he alone is righteous [by God's standards].

John Owen qualifies vs. 2-3 in chapter 3 with "all fools" from vs. 1. Practical atheists who persecute God.

Good article. Both Augustine and Owens quoted from this source.
Does Psalm 14 Apply to All of Humanity?
---------------

Romans 3:21-24 Since nobody can be justified by the works of the Law, Paul then offers the 'good news' of righteousness by faith for all those who believe.

The context is justification. Man lacks the moral ability to be righteous. To be declared righteous. To be justified by the Law. That's the way Paul was using it. Paul quotes Psalm 14 to show that both Jews and Gentiles are under sin. His main point in saying that, was that the Jews and Gentiles alike are in the same spiritual predicament. Paul makes it abundantly clear in Romans 3 and beyond that it's not a Gentile problem, but a "Jew and Gentile" problem.

To sum up Paul's point, vs. 23 of chapter 3 does a nice job of it.

23 "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God," (Both Jew and Gentile ....) see vs 24-31 and into chapter 4 as the flow continues, using Abraham as an example [Who was imputed with Christ's righteousness].

See how the message is consistent if we understand that what is being emphasized is that man cannot justify himself? Why? Because there is none righteous, none that does good (Mark 10:18, Luke 18:19-John 15:5).

The context is justification and the ability to do good by righteous standards and justify ones self.

So why does Paul add "There is none who seeks after God." to His quote from the OT?

It would seem to be an odd thing to say if we take it at face value since Isaiah said this.

Isaiah 55:6 Seek the Lord while He may be found, Call upon Him while He is near. And other places Psalm 9:10, 22:46, 40:16, 1 Chronicles 28:9, Hosea 10:12, etc.

Paul adds "there is none who seeks after God" in Romans 3 for a reason when quoting Psalms, that reason is up for debate, but taking that statement literally and defining it on an island doesn't fit with the rest of Scripture. Since Psalms 14 and Isaiah 53 lays that definition on the Gentiles (Isaiah 53:4,6.). Paul was making clear that it's just as much a problem for Jews as it is for Gentiles.

Remember that even Peter said to be careful when examining Paul's letters and not to read into them any false ideas.

2 Peter 3:15-16 and consider that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation--as also our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, has written to you, as also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to understand, which untaught and unstable people twist to their own destruction, as they do also the rest of the Scriptures.

My opinion. To read into "there are none who seeks after Him", as being that man will never desire to be saved unless He is saved already, is just a very poor interpreting of Scripture, and must have a complete disregard for the context of the Bible. Justification is the context. Man cannot justify Himself. That's the point being made by Paul. That and that Jews and Gentiles were in the same boat. Nobody in the OT could do anything good or righteous, because it was all from the flesh, and not the Spirit. Not until the Holy Spirit indwelled believers could man produce the fruit of the Spirit. Thus, the quote, ...."As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God. They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.""

The Bible refers to many people as being righteous, such as with Psalm 14 referring to the generation of the righteous, or with Noah (Genesis 6:8-9) and Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-6), so it is false that no one at all is righteous, but that is speaking about no one being righteous from among a certain group of people.

The issue of the way to become righteous is different from the issue of what describes the behavior of the righteous. The only way to become righteous is through faith apart from being required to have first done enough works in order to earn it as the result, but what it means to become righteous is to become a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31, 1 John 3:4-7, Isaiah 51:7). The reason why we can't become righteous as the result of our works is not because we fall short of perfect obedience but because Law of God was never given as a was never given as a way of becoming righteous in the first place. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes as the result of perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe. Rather, the Law of God was given to describe the behavior of the the righteous as it describes the behavior of Christ, so it is what we get to experience by being given the gift of righteousness through faith.

 

[Genez]

What does it really mean?

Romans 3:10-11 As it is written: "There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.

The immediate context. Vs. 9 "We" Paul is referring to Jews. "Them" is referring to Gentiles. Both Jew and Gentile under the same condition. This is the bigger context also.

Something is being lost in the interpretation.....

For, here we have Romans 3:9-11.

What shall we conclude then? Do we (Jews) have any advantage? ​

Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles ​

alike are all under the power of sin. As it is written:​

​

“There is no one righteous, not even one;
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.​

Okay....

No one seeks God?

Then, what do we do with Jeremiah 29:13?

"You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."​

​

I think too many here are impatient and want immediate answers, so they create their own answer.
There is more to than meets the eye.

 

[Thaddeus]

For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: Rom7:18

 

[GWH]

The Bible refers to many people as being righteous, such as with Psalm 14 referring to the generation of the righteous, or with Noah (Genesis 6:8-9) and Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-6), so it is false that no one at all is righteous, but that is speaking about no one being righteous from among a certain group of people.

The issue of the way to become righteous is different from the issue of what describes the behavior of the righteous. The only way to become righteous is through faith apart from being required to have first done enough works in order to earn it as the result, but what it means to become righteous is to become a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31, 1 John 3:4-7, Isaiah 51:7). The reason why we can't become righteous as the result of our works is not because we fall short of perfect obedience but because Law of God was never given as a was never given as a way of becoming righteous in the first place. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes as the result of perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe. Rather, the Law of God was given to describe the behavior of the the righteous as it describes the behavior of Christ, so it is what we get to experience by being given the gift of righteousness through faith.

Yes, per Paul’s teachings no one is self righteous or righteous apart from sharing the righteousness of Christ through faith in His atonement. Per Jesus no one seeks God until they repent. Per both, all are sinners in need of God’s forgiveness and salvation.

 

[Dave123]

The Bible refers to many people as being righteous, such as with Psalm 14 referring to the generation of the righteous, or with Noah (Genesis 6:8-9) and Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:5-6), so it is false that no one at all is righteous, but that is speaking about no one being righteous from among a certain group of people.

The issue of the way to become righteous is different from the issue of what describes the behavior of the righteous. The only way to become righteous is through faith apart from being required to have first done enough works in order to earn it as the result, but what it means to become righteous is to become a doer of righteous works in obedience to the Law of God (Romans 3:28-31, 1 John 3:4-7, Isaiah 51:7). The reason why we can't become righteous as the result of our works is not because we fall short of perfect obedience but because Law of God was never given as a was never given as a way of becoming righteous in the first place. In Romans 3:21-22, it does not say that the Law and the Prophets testify that the righteousness of God comes as the result of perfect obedience, but rather the only way to become righteous that is testified about in the Law and the Prophets is through faith in Christ for all who believe. Rather, the Law of God was given to describe the behavior of the the righteous as it describes the behavior of Christ, so it is what we get to experience by being given the gift of righteousness through faith.

Matthew 5:17-18 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled.

Romans 10:1-4 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.

Colossians 2:13-14 And you, being dead in your trespasses and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He has made alive together with Him, having forgiven you all trespasses, having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.

"With men this is impossible, but with God all things are possible." This is speaking specifically about Jesus (being fully God and fully man) fulfilling the Law, and establishing the righteousness of God that is imputed to us as believers.

That's what Jesus did. If He didn't establish that righteousness as a man, we do not have the righteousness of God to impute to us when we are spiritually placed into Christ, and we do not have atonement.

 

[Dave123]

Something is being lost in the interpretation.....

For, here we have Romans 3:9-11.

What shall we conclude then? Do we (Jews) have any advantage? ​

Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles ​

alike are all under the power of sin. As it is written:​

​

“There is no one righteous, not even one;​

there is no one who understands;​

there is no one who seeks God.​

Okay....

No one seeks God?

Then, what do we do with Jeremiah 29:13?

"You will seek me and find me when you seek me with all your heart."​

​

I think too many here are impatient and want immediate answers, so they create their own answer.
There is more to than meets the eye.

I agree.

Maybe what was lost in that translation was the "all your heart" part. A genuine seeking.

Here is the Psalm being quoted in Romans 3.

Psalm14:2-5 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call on the Lord? There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous.

They became that way for reasons listed. The idea that they were born that way, as some claim that passage means, is not in that text.

 

[Genez]

I agree.

Maybe what was lost in that translation was the "all your heart" part. A genuine seeking.

Here is the Psalm being quoted in Romans 3.

Psalm14:2-5 The Lord looks down from heaven upon the children of men, To see if there are any who understand, who seek God. They have all turned aside, They have together become corrupt; There is none who does good, No, not one. Have all the workers of iniquity no knowledge, Who eat up my people as they eat bread, And do not call on the Lord? There they are in great fear, For God is with the generation of the righteous.

They became that way for reasons listed. The idea that they were born that way, as some claim that passage means, is not in that text.

God initiates that seeking. It germinates from His invisible drawing process.
When thoughts enter the mind of a man? And, it makes him wonder.
As he wonders? He begins seeking.

When God supplies enough thoughts to enter the man's mind he will begin to see a pattern.
It is then that a man begins seeking with all his heart, but not really knowing what it is that he is seeking.
Because, the one drawing him is invisible and not audibly heard other than questions and thoughts placed
in his mind as it were his own thought.

Jesus answered:

“Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip?
Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?? John 14:9​

That is why we must come to Christ to make sense of all that had been taking place while being drawn.
For when we can see Christ?
When we can hear Christ?

And to see and hear Jesus in the Word of God?

That moment is to finally see the Father who had been drawing us all along!

Even if we know it or not!
It just fits well with our soul.

grace and peace ....

 

[Dave123]

God initiates that seeking. It germinates from His invisible drawing process.
When thoughts enter the mind of a man? And, it makes him wonder.
As he wonders? He begins seeking.

When God supplies enough thoughts to enter the man's mind he will begin to see a pattern.
It is then that a man begins seeking with all his heart, but not really knowing what it is that he is seeking.
Because, the one drawing him is invisible and not audibly heard other than questions and thoughts placed
in his mind as it were his own thought.

Jesus answered: ​

​

“Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? ​

Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?? John 14:9​

That is why we must come to Christ to make sense of all that had been taking place while being drawn.
For when we can see Christ?
When we can hear Christ?

And to see and hear Jesus in the Word of God?

That moment is to finally see the Father who had been drawing us all along!

Even if we know it or not!
It just fits well with our soul.

grace and peace ....

But there are those who say that unless a person is born again already, they will not seek God. I call it the two option theory usually used by Calvinists. The flesh or the Spirit. But can a person be drawn from the presence of God like in the OT. None of them were born again. They had the presence of God only. I believe that's why Jesus said that when He is lifted up, He will draw all people to Himself. this is because with NT believers being the new dwelling place of God, we take that presence with us when we evangelize.

John 12:32 And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."

We, as Temples of the Holy Spirit in the NT are a light to the world. As a result, we will draw one of two reactions; Some will be drawn to us and others will want to put that light out at all costs. It's really the basis for our persecution. they hate Him who live in us.

This is a really powerful statement.

John 16:7-16 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more;
of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father."

 

[Genez]

But there are those who say that unless a person is born again already, they will not seek God.

When they tried to make sense as to how a spiritually dead person could believe?
That was their short-sighted superficial and erroneous conclusion.
They had no understanding as to how the soul can operate when isolated from the flesh.
When isolated, the soul can think things that when the flesh was dominating could not consider.

In drawing men?
The solution?
Make the flesh ineffectual.
How?

GRACE! Grace is real power!

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may ​

rest on me." 2 Cor 12:9​

While God was drawing us and having us to decide?
Grace will totally stop the flesh from bullying the soul, which will allow that soul to make his own decision.
It is not regeneration. It is a matter of God freeing a soul to make up its own mind about God.

The natural man sees Bible doctrines as foolishness. Even pagans have gods!

......

 

[Dave123]

When they tried to make sense as to how a spiritually dead person could believe?
That was their short-sighted superficial and erroneous conclusion.
They had no understanding as to how the soul can operate when isolated from the flesh.
When isolated, the soul can think things that when the flesh was dominating could not consider.

In drawing men?
The solution?
Make the flesh ineffectual.
How?

GRACE! Grace is real power!

But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” ​

Therefore, I will boast all the more gladly about my weaknesses, so that Christ’s power may ​

rest on me." 2 Cor 12:9​

While God was drawing us and having us to decide?
Grace will totally stop the flesh from bullying the soul, which will allow that soul to make his own decision.
It is not regeneration. It is a matter of God freeing a soul to make up its own mind about God.

The natural man sees Bible doctrines as foolishness. Even pagans have gods!

......

And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. But the power that Paul is speaking of in that passage is when we are in Christ. Remember, just before He ascended, Jesus said to the Apostles and disciples will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes upon them, speaking of the Pentecost indwelling, the baptism with the Holy Spirit Acts 1:8. The weakness Paul spoke of in that 2 Corinthians passage was a demon that was afflicting him. He asked three times that it be removed, and his answer was "my power/strength is made perfect in weakness."

In the OT, they were given the right to be born again, as it says in the much abused John 1:12-13, but that was not given until Pentecost. The NEV did a great job with the translation. The old English in the KJV butchered that passage and much of the newer translations followed suit. This is, I believe, correct.

NEV--OT- John 1:12-13 Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God—children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband’s will, but born of God.

They were given the right to become children of God, born again. But that right did not begin to be realized until Pentecost, when they were placed into Christ with the Promise of the Father that was owed to them because they already believed. Remember John 7:38-39. He said the same thing.

 

[Genez]

And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

I'm not necessarily disagreeing with you. But the power that Paul is speaking of in that passage is when we are in Christ.

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. Not just for believers.

The atonement grants God the freedom to apply power to any unbeliever to make that unbeliever capable of understanding the absolute minimum of what salvation entails.

Not so that the unbeliever will agree with what they were made to understand.
But to leave the unbeliever to be without excuse when the final judgment comes.

Grace made the following unbelievers to see what was needed to be without excuse.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power ​

and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, ​

so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:20​

Titus 2:11 says that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
All men!
Not just the elect.

Titus emphasizes that God's grace is available to everyone, even offering unbelievers guidance into living a moral life.
Many unbelievers who were wild in their youth become moral as they enter into mature adults for that reason.

 

[Gideon300]

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. Not just for believers.

The atonement grants God the freedom to apply power to any unbeliever to make that unbeliever capable of understanding the absolute minimum of what salvation entails.

Not so that the unbeliever will agree with what they were made to understand.
But to leave the unbeliever to be without excuse when the final judgment comes.

Grace made the following unbelievers to see what was needed to be without excuse.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power ​

and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, ​

so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:20​

Titus 2:11 says that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
All men!
Not just the elect.

Titus emphasizes that God's grace is available to everyone, even offering unbelievers guidance into living a moral life.
Many unbelievers who were wild in their youth become moral as they enter into mature adults for that reason.

The most moral and upright person is still a sinner in God's sight.

 

[Genez]

The most moral and upright person is still a sinner in God's sight.

I did not say otherwise.
That is why I chose the word "moral."
I did not choose the word righteous for that reason.

Morality is what God establishes to create law and order within a population.
People who desire personal freedom thrive happily in a nation with both moral believers and moral unbelievers.

Immorality is a cancer that eats up freedom and liberty.

 

[Karlon]

it means, naturally, which is what humans are, we don't seek after God. God tis supernatural, we are natural. 1 way to know that is when we get in trouble, many people don't turn to God 1st. we start compiling, swear & doubt.

 

[Dave123]

Jesus died for the sins of the whole world. Not just for believers

The atonement grants God the freedom to apply power to any unbeliever to make that unbeliever capable of understanding the absolute minimum of what salvation entails.

Not so that the unbeliever will agree with what they were made to understand.
But to leave the unbeliever to be without excuse when the final judgment comes.


Grace made the following unbelievers to see what was needed to be without excuse.

For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities, His eternal power ​

and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood from His workmanship, ​

so that men are without excuse." Romans 1:20​

Titus 2:11 says that the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men.
All men!
Not just the elect.

Titus emphasizes that God's grace is available to everyone, even offering unbelievers guidance into living a moral life.
Many unbelievers who were wild in their youth become moral as they enter into mature adults for that reason.

Isn't unbelief a sin? If it is, then you would need to also conclude that Jesus suffered the punishment due for it. Think of the implications for that. This statement in John could not be true....

John 3:18 He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

If he did not die for the sin of unbelief, then He did not die for all their sins.

Titus 2:11 is what Jesus prophesied in John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all peoples to Myself."" , but applying that to the atonement is a leap that Titus 2:11 doesn't require or allow.

One must come to Jesus in faith to have this atonement. Here's a verse that says the He died for the sins of the world. When comparing the Epistle to the the Gospel according to John, we can see what John meant when he says the "whole world", which often means Jews, with Gentile included. Remember, "salvation has come to the Gentiles"-- Peter--Acts?

Here's what John meant when he said that Jesus died for the sins of the whole world.

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1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

John 11:51-52 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.
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1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

John 11:51-52 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

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1 John 2:2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world.

John 11:51-52 Now this he did not say on his own authority; but being high priest that year he prophesied that Jesus would die for the nation, and not for that nation only, but also that He would gather together in one the children of God who were scattered abroad.

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The words "all" and "world" and like words do not always mean every individual in Scripture. Every individual in the world did not register for the census required by Caesar Augustus (Luke 2:1), even though it says, "all the world". Is Matthew 3:5 including babies, elderly, disabled? Does Acts 26:4 mean that every single Jew in the world knew Paul? No.

The atonement applies to us when we are placed into Christ.