It was self righteousness that handed Jesus over to Pilate to have him crucified.
It was self righteousness that refused the 30 pieces of silver that Judas tried to return to them.
Romans 3:10-11 "There is none righteous, ...who understands, ...who seeks after God, no, not one;
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It was self righteousness that handed Jesus over to Pilate to have him crucified.
It was self righteousness that refused the 30 pieces of silver that Judas tried to return to them.
Thank God that sin was paid for And we have an easy way out with His Priceless payment.
And our self righteousness has an easy time overlooking that payment.
- Inherent Inability: The flesh is viewed as structurally incapable of producing True Righteousness. As Romans 8:7 states, the mind governed by the flesh is Hostile to God and Cannot Submit to His law.
- The Internal Battle: Even after a man experiences spiritual renewal, biblical text describes a constant War between the desires of the flesh and the desires of the Holy Spirit (Galatians 5:17
- The Remedy: Because the flesh is unrighteous, Few holds that it cannot be reformed or improved; instead, it must be "Crucified" or Overcome through Reliance on the Holy Spirit.
So yeah None Good
just as Jesus said Also
Here's the problem...
False teachers have no fear in distorting God's Word.
They will play games with Scripture to make what they want you to believe, to appear to be saying what it does not say.
They slap the Word... pluck out its beard… and punch it around without concern.
They do not approach the Scriptures with reverential fear, making sure to not be simply using it to make themselves look good.
They are out to endorse whatever their team cheers for.
It is that kind of energy we are dealing with.
Grace and truth ..............
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John1:1
False teachers have no fear in distorting God's Word.
They will play games with Scripture to make what they want you to believe, to appear to be saying what it does not say.
They slap the Word... pluck out its beard… and punch it around without concern.
They do not approach the Scriptures with reverential fear, making sure to not be simply using it to make themselves look good.
They are out to endorse whatever their team cheers for.
It is that kind of energy we are dealing with.
Grace and truth ..............
1 John was written for believers, not those who are unbelievers (1 John 5:13). It is the unbelievers that we were discussing, and your belief that they too had their sin atoned, even before they were born, from the foundations of the world. You calimed that the atonement was universal, remember?
And you claimed they those unbelievers will be judged by their good works, not their sin, remember?
Also, self righteousness is the opposite of poor in spirit. You know, the self righteous people who think that they are good and deserves salvation based on their good works, vs. the poor in spirit, that would be those who know that they fail God's perfect and holy standards and rely totally on God's grace through Jesus Christ and would not dare approach God with their own works.
Here's an example of self righteousness vs. poor in spirit in Scripture.
Luke 18:9-14 Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others: "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector. The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, 'God, I thank You that I am not like other men--extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector. I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.' And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!' I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
By logical conclusion, Genez, who believes that the Lamb slain from the foundations of the world means that Jesus atoned for every mans sin universally, and that atonement applies to them, even unbelievers, from the foundations of the world, must also believe that the sin of unbelief was also atoned for in the same way. He obviously avoided answering that huge inconsistency with his other idea that man is only judged for unbelief at his judgment because sin was atoned for already from the foundations of the world. And me pointing this out is apparently self righteousness.
your thought on this belief of universalism and atonement by Genez?
Please deal with the Biblical questions, that would be much more impressive than you beating up your straw man with liberal argumentation and false Bravada. Thankyou.
My flesh has no righteous. Anything that is truthrly Good is Of God Akone. Here is how to view without the flesh
thinking he is in control.
The Bible teaches that victory over the flesh does not come from staring at your flaws. It comes from staring at Jesus.
- Look Forward, Not Backward: Galatians 5:16 states, "Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh." Notice the order. The verse does not say "stop sinning so you can walk in the Spirit." It says walk in the Spirit first, and the freedom follows naturally.
- Crowding Out the Bad: If a cup is filled with dirty water, you do not clean it by scraping the bottom; you pour clean water in until the dirty water overflows and leaves. Focusing on the Holy Spirit moves you forward because His presence naturally crowds out sinful desires.
- The True Anointing: The anointing of Jesus is meant to empower believers for ministry, healing, and love (Luke 4:18). When a church or individual focuses only on behavior modification, they Miss out on the supernatural power available to them.
- Why People Default to the Flesh
- Fear: It is frightening to trust an invisible Spirit, so people default to rigid checklists.
- Pride: It feels good to check off a list of things you didn't do today and feel superior to others.
- Immaturity: Discerning the movement of the Holy Spirit requires patience and deep prayer, while pointing out sin takes no spiritual effort at all.
I don’t think this is Paul’s teaching. Paul uses what may be understood as a present continuous participle, “There is no one keeping on seeking (ἐκζητῶν) after God.” He also uses what may be understood as a present continuous tense when he says, “There is no one keeping on doing good. (ποιῶν , present continuous participle)”
“With their tongues they were practising deceit (ἐδολιοῦσαν, imperfect active indicative)” does not necessarily mean they were always doing so non-stop. There may be times when their tongues are speaking truthfully.
They way of peace they did not know at some point/s (ἔγνωσαν, aorist active indicative) .
The fear God is not continuously (οὐκ ἔστιν ) before their eyes.
His point is not that no one can ever do anything good, but that all of us lapse into phases of not doing good, and not seeking God. "For all have sinned at some point", and those intermittent sin mars our record so that, “There is none righteous, no not one” when we measure men by the sum of their deeds. They are all gone out of the way at some point/s (ἐξέκλινα, νaorist active indicative) They are all become unprofitable at some point/s (ἠχρειώθησαν, aorist passive indicative)."
Paul is not saying that it is impossible to do any good deeds without being born again first. He is alleging that all fall short of the glory of God at times, and therefore there is none continuously righteous, and all are in need the Saviour.
Hi Paul
I agree with the seeking part, but not the good and righteous part.
I think that he is saying that man cannot do good or righteousness according to the Law, or according to righteous standards. Remember, Paul is a quoting from the OT in Romans 3, and the topic is justification. The things that a person does may appear to be good to us, but they are tainted with sin, and thus, not good or righteous according to the Law. They cannot earn justification because man is incapable of doing what the Law requires. The difference between myself and Calvinist these days, and traditionally with many Calvinists, is that I don't think that the desire needs to be pure and pass righteous standards. I don't see that idea in Scripture. The initial faith cannot, and does not. The ongoing faith, called the life is Spirit powered and can do good and be righteous as an evidence of someone who is already justified.
This idea that man cannot do good or be righteous from the flesh is repeated everywhere in Scripture. Jesus, speaking from His humanity, said, "why do you call Me good, God alone is Good". Without the Vine, the branches cannot bear good fruit. God calls our righteousness filthy rags. Even Paul, in the same letter to the Romans says the same.
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me (can desire), but how to perform what is good I do not find (cannot perform the act according to righteous standards, the Law). (in italics added by me)
Romans 8:9-11 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.
Now put that truth together with this, and the many like it. These are before the cross, and thus, they are still OT....
John 7:38-39 He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water." But this He spoke concerning the Spirit, whom those believing in Him would receive; for the Holy Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
OT believers did not have the Spirit in them, the source of that good and righteousness.
John 16:7-16 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you. And when He has come, He will convict the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: of sin, because they do not believe in Me; of righteousness, because I go to My Father and you see Me no more; of judgment, because the ruler of this world is judged. I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come. He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you. All things that the Father has are Mine. Therefore I said that He will take of Mine and declare it to you. "A little while, and you will not see Me; and again a little while, and you will see Me, because I go to the Father."
How far did the presence of God take them in the OT (John 12:35-36)?
Keep in mind that this condition, absent the Holy Spirit indwelling, not born again, is what Paul's Roman 3 passage, quoting the OT, is pointing to. In the OT, believers did not have the Spirit in them, so, apart from the presence of God which I believe drew them, all that they had was the flesh. This is why I believe that Paul quotes the OT saying that 'there are none who does good, no not one, there are none who are righteous, no not one, and all of their works were like filthy rags.'. This means what it says, simply stated, man cannot do anything pleasing to God without the the source being the Holy Spirit in Him doing it. "For what do you have that you did not receive? And if you received it, why do you boast as if you have not (1 Corinthians 4:7)? That's why they are called gifts of the Holy Spirit. Anything good that comes from us is an undeserved gift from God. Righteousness also.
I disagree with the Calvinist idea that the same idea applies to the desire.
Your entire argument, Dave, seems based on logical fallacies and reading things into the English of the Bible that one would not read into the English of any other book.
If I inspect a tree of apples and declare, “There are no good apples on there, no not one,” you would not assume I meant that every apple is completely rotten and no apple has any good parts. Also, I might say of an orchard, there are no perfect trees in that orchard," but that does not mean there are no trees with any perfect fruit, nor any fruit that is partly perfect." And yet when you read in the Bible, “No one is good, no, not one,” you assume that must mean that no one has any good parts, nor can any of their fruit be good.
Under the law it was possible to offer up a perfect lamb, a lamb without blemish. Now a lamb with a scratch on it’s nose was not good as a sacrifice on the altar, but it had many good parts to it nevertheless. If God is judging us by the works we have done, of course, no one is good. Only God is good. Only Jesus, as a member of the good God is good, having a history devoid of any imperfection. But that statement that only God is good, does not equate to “Only God can do anything good, and only God has anything good in Him.”
You are beginning with a theological idea you have assumed, that we are all tainted from conception with original sin and that taints every aspect of everything that we do and say and think and desire. And you are then reading texts in a way that will support that assumption, rather than reading texts the same way as you would read a non-theological text.
Until a person encounters Christ, he or she is in a state of sinfulness. According to Rom. 5:12, sin entered into the world through Adam. So, everyone committed sins because they had a sin nature in them. The reason why no one sought God is because 2 Cor. 4:4 says that Satan has blinded their minds from knowing God. According to Pro. 14:12, everyone thinks that they are right from their own perspective. Unless God takes the initiative to save them, there is no way they can get saved. God's ministers such as evangelists are the ambassadors who reach out to such people and declare the gospel to them. This is when they will have an encounter with God and they either choose to believe or not believe.
Paul, with all due respect, my argument is based on the verses that I posted and the context of the Bible. I don't define verses on an island. And while the original languages have their place, and are a useful tool, I don't look at the reading of the original languages as a cure all, as some do, at the expense of context. The original languages can be, and are often abused even more than the English. Ask the people who translate them for a living. The original languages require a recognition of the Biblical context and are defined by it, just like the English is, and even more so. The translators of our modern day Bible translations say this all the time, that the original languages are abused more than the English is.
- D.A. Carson (New Testament Scholar and translation consultant): In his seminal work Exegetical Fallacies, he dedicates an entire section to the abuse of original languages. He warns against "root-meaning fallacies" (assuming a word's historical root defines its meaning) and cautions that "it is remarkably easy to manipulate the Greek text to make it say whatever the preacher wants it to say." [1, 2]
- Gordon Fee (New Testament scholar and translator): In New Testament Exegesis, he cautions students about the "illegitimate totality transfer"—a fallacy where people read all the possible meanings of a Greek word into a single verse, thereby abusing the original language to teach a concept not intended by the author. [1]
- Daniel B. Wallace (Greek grammarian and translator): He has frequently written about "myths" regarding Bible translation. He warns pastors and teachers against using phrases like "in the Greek, this really means..." to introduce a creative, personal definition, as it often contradicts the recognized rules of grammar and syntax. [1]
- Robert L. Plummer (Professor of New Testament Interpretation): Scholars often note that laypeople tend to think Greek and Hebrew are "magical" or more inherently precise languages, which leads to treating the original languages as a secret code. However, scholars acknowledge that they are still human languages with semantic ranges that must be controlled by sound literary context. [1, 2, 3, 4]
Wuest ---"The English reader is at the mercy of the translator. But the student of the Greek text must remember that a word is known by the company it keeps. To understand a word, one must see it in its environment."
"Any attempt to deal in an adequate way with the Epistle to the Hebrews must be based, not only upon a knowledge of the Greek text, but upon a clear understanding of the historical background of the letter."
"Smoothness of diction and elegance of expression have been sacrificed in order to bring out more clearly the thought of the original."
Without the Vine, we, the branches cannot bear good fruit. That's what it says. And there was more than one verse posted. God gets the credit for that, not our flesh. It's Him, His goodness, His righteousness, His holiness, from His Spirit. From our flesh, what we can take credit for is not good, not righteousness, and not holy. What do we offer according to the flesh that is good or righteous?
The Law requires of us perfect obedience, perfect righteousness, no blemishes. That's what is pictured there with the Lamb without blemish. That's why Jesus is called the Lamb without blemish. We are not only incapable of doing that over a lifetime, as we are judged for the whole package of our life, and not just and end result, or a point in time, but we cannot even do one act by the flesh that passes those standards of righteousness and holiness. That's Paul's point in Romans 3. Man cannot justify himself with a lifetime of 'without blemish', and perfect righteousness, when he is incapable of even doing one act from the flesh that passes the standards of holiness. Everything that we do from the flesh is sin. Anything good that comes from us is a gift from God, it's the fruit of the Spirit, not the fruit of our flesh.
A person, from the flesh, cannot produce one work that can be placed in the good, or righteous column. Even though God requires a whole lifetime of nothing but good and righteous.
Galatians 5:17, John 6:63, Romans 8:7-8, 7:18
I did not assume it, I gave Scripture to support it. I only added to that the Calvinist interpretation that man will not even desire to do or have good is not included in that. Man, if unable to produce one act that is good or righteous according to God's righteous standards, cannot justify Himself. For if man can do one act of good and righteousness from the flesh, then man CAN, at least in theory, justify Himself. But Jesus stated very clearly, for what is impossible for man is possible for God. We cannot obey God in any meaningful way without the Spirit of God in us. It's not the Spirit making our flesh good, it's the Spirit that is the good and is doing so through us. That's the fruit of the Spirit.
Do you know what original sin is? It's a separation from God. That's what we inherited from Adam, a separation from God. The source of good. God alone is good. This is not an assumption. The Bible actually teaches this. Separated from God, we cannot do good, or righteousness, not one act, according to God's holy standards of good and righteousness. That's why God says that our righteousness is like filthy rags (Isaiah 64:6). That's why without the Vine, we can do nothing [good]. That's why we can say that whatever we have that is good, we received it, and it's a gift, from God, not of ourselves.
Romans 7:18 For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh) nothing good dwells; for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find.
Romans 8:7-8 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be.
So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.
Why are the good things listed as fruit of the Spirit in the Galatians passage below, and not the fruit of the flesh also? And how come the flesh only has the bad things listed? Isn't there some good from the flesh?
Galatians 5:17-23 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Now the works of the flesh are evident, which are: adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lewdness, idolatry, sorcery, hatred, contentions, jealousies, outbursts of wrath, selfish ambitions, dissensions, heresies, envy, murders, drunkenness, revelries, and the like; of which I tell you beforehand, just as I also told you in time past, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God. But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law.
That makes no sense to me, maximc. What does sinfulness mean? The state of being full of sin? What does full of sin mean? No room for anything but sin? Everyone is so corrupt there is no room for anything good in them? That is not my experience of humanity.
"According to Rom. 5:12, sin entered into the world through Adam. So, everyone committed sins because they had a sin nature in them."
How does that make sense. Sin entered the world through Adam sinning. Did God create Adam, who was created very good, with a sin nature? If Adam had no sin nature but became a sinner by sinning, how does that lead to your conclusion “So, everyone committed sin because they had a sin nature in them”?
Your reply clearly indicates that you did not read the scriptures I quoted. According to Pro. 14:12, everyone thinks that they are right from their own perspective. But in God's perspective, everyone is a sinner until they receive Christ as their Savior and Lord. Rom. 5:12 clearly says that death came upon everyone because everyone committed sin.
A agree, I would only qualify 2 Corinthians 4:4 with this passage in the previous chapter, and others listed.
2 Corinthians 3:14-16 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.
Acts 26:17-18 I (Jesus) will deliver you (Paul) from the Jewish people, as well as from the Gentiles, to whom I now send you, to open their eyes, in order to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan to God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins and an inheritance among those who are sanctified by faith in Me.'
Romans 11:25 For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.
There are more, but this is why I believe that the desire to be saved is not included in mans sinful nature. It can be judicial, but people are not born that way in Adam. They are only born incapable of doing good by righteous standards. I believe that Romans 3 is speaking of an inability to do righteous or good according to holy standards, but a desire to want these things does not need to pass that standard, because it's not that desire that justifies us, therefore, it does not need to be from the Spirit. The life is from the Spirit [indwelling], but the initial faith that gives us that life, the desire, is just that, a desire.
This is why I think that the idea of Romans 3 including a desire that must be a Spirit empowered and pure desire/faith, thus passing the good and righteous standards, is incorrect, and a mixing of Scripture that is speaking of our initial faith, with Scripture that is speaking of the life that is from the Spirit indwelling, the ongoing faith.
Pro 14:12
There is a way which seemeth right unto a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death.
That says nothing like "everyone thinks that they are right from their own perspective."
Rom 5:12 Διὰ (Through) τοῦτο (this) ὥσπερ (just as) δι᾽ ἑνὸς (through one) ἀνθρώπου (man) ἡ ἁμαρτία (the sin) εἰς (into) τὸν κόσμον (the world) εἰσῆλθεν (came-into at some point/s) καὶ (and) διὰ (through) τῆς ἁμαρτίας (the sin) ὁ θάνατος (the death) καὶ (even/and) οὕτως (in the same way/so) εἰς (into) πάντας (all) ἀνθρώπους (men) ὁ θάνατος (the death) διῆλθεν (went-through at some point/s) ἐφ᾽ (upon) ᾧ (which) πάντες (all men) ἥμαρτον (sinned at some point/s, aorist active indicative).
Through this, just as the sin came into one man at some point’s, and death through the sin, also in the same way death made its way into all men upon the basis of which all sinned/sin at some point.
If I say that I heard that my wife had driven her vehicle into a wall in the car park upon which she suffered whiplash, I would not assume that whiplash caused her to hit the wall. Likewise, hearing that all men became mortal upon which all sinned, I would not assume that all men became mortal because all sinned.
This appears to me to be saying that physical death was imposed upon all Adam’s descendants because of Adam’s own sin. And in the same death made its way into all mankind, so that as a result of becoming mortal, all succumbed at some point to temptations to sin.. It does not appear to me to be saying that all died because they sinned. We were all sentenced to mortality, whether we sinned or not, hence babies in the womb are mortal before they have done anything either good or evil. It does not seem to me to be saying that death came upon all because all sinned, but that all who sinned sinned because they were mortal.
If I say everyone was admitted to the wedding on the basis of showing an official invitation to security, I am not saying that every single person in the world was admitted into the wedding because they all showed official invitations. I am saying that everyone who was admitted into the wedding was admitted in the basis of .showing an official invitation.
Just so, Paul is not saying that every single person committed some sin, and that is why they died. He is saying that every single person who sinned, sinned because they were mortal; their sense of mortality drove them to sin. Babies in the womb have done nothing geither ood or evil. So, they have not sinned. And yet many of them die, because they were subject to mortality because of Adam’s sentence for Adam’s sin.
Rom 9:11
(For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
