Hey, I’m not glossing over your concerns. But your recent pre-trib view — which was taught by men starting in the 1800s — is forcing the text in several places.
First, there is no 7-year Tribulation clearly taught anywhere in the Bible. That idea is a misinterpretation of Daniel 9:27. Daniel’s 70th week was already fulfilled in the first century through Christ’s ministry, His death, and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. There is no future 7-year clock. That assumption is the shaky foundation the whole pre-trib system rests on.
Because of that, Matthew 24 is still a massive problem for your position. Jesus does not describe two comings in the chapter. He gives one continuous sequence: tribulation, cosmic signs, then “immediately after the tribulation of those days” the Son of Man comes on the clouds with power and great glory. He sends His angels with a loud trumpet to gather His elect. It’s Jesus’ own coming, not “just angels gathering in heaven.” The “one taken, one left” is judgment language — like the flood, where the wicked are taken away. Not a secret rapture of half the church.
Your take on Revelation 14 and the 144,000 doesn’t prove a pre-trib Church rapture either. The harvest fits at the end.
I’ve studied the verses you listed. 1 Thess 4 still matches Matthew 24 too closely (trumpet, clouds, gathering) to be a completely separate event years earlier. John 14, Matt 25, etc., all fit better with one climactic, visible return of Christ.
You can keep claiming post-tribbers don’t understand the bride or the rapture, but the plain words of Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 remain the biggest hurdle for the pre-trib view. That’s not glossing over anything — it’s reading the text straightforwardly.
If you want to discuss, let’s stay with Scripture instead of broad dismissals.
Go back and see all the verses I posted.
Then figure out as I did that you have no basis to claim i did not do so.
That is beyond Ludacrous.
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"You can keep claiming post-tribbers don’t understand the bride or the rapture"
I have sat through many many hours of post trib teaching.
And have never, not one time, heard any of them introduce the bride and the bride groom
You can go back check and it simply is not there.
The reason I point that out is because the rapture is the gathering of the bride by the groom.
That is what the rapture is.
Heaven sees all end times through the prism of the bride and the bridegroom.
The post trib doctrine is centered on the tribulation and that doctrine attempts to define;
tribulation.
Great tribulation,
wrath,
the day of the Lord,
the trumpet,
the last Trump,
the seventh trump.
Darby,
LAHAYE,
and other one liners, as the center of its message. ( and those talking points are the heart of that doctrine, plus the dead ancient men ( church fathers), that invented it)
where did that doctrine come from?
Post tribbers will tell you that they're doctrine came from men of the early church.
They showcase that as their foundation.
(So much for the "man centered doctrine claim" you tried to pull. You guys champion that one big time.)
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"your take on Revelation 14 and the 144,000 doesn’t prove a pre-trib Church rapture either. The harvest fits at the end."
huh?
that harvest is during the trib.
What you leave out, is that the 144,000 are FIRSTFUIT JEWS.
That means main harvest Jews FOLLOWS.
You are forgetting JESUS is the firsfruits of the church resurrection.
The 144,000 do not fit ANYTHING CONCERNING ANY FIRSTFRUITS OF THE CHURCH...NADA.
They are exactly what the word of God says...FIRSTFRUIT JEWS.
If you read what is written concerning Rev 14, it blows away everything but a pretribb rapture.
Hands down.
Ask yourself why postribbers are replacement theology.
It is because of end times obstacles.
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"words of Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 remain the biggest hurdle for the pre-trib view. That’s not glossing over anything — it’s reading the text straightforwardly"
Huh?
You ever read it??
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
Your passages support pretrib.
You posted that AFTER THE TRIB, ANGELS GATHER, ( NOT JESUS) , IN HEAVEN, (NOT EARTH).
Thank you for verses supporting the pretrib rapture.
But by all means keep reading.
Jesus then teaches the pretrib rapture, with "one taken one left before the flood,", and tells them, concerning the preflood coming, to watch and be ready.
Definately two separate comings taught by Jesus.
So you have some homework with matt25and 24,and Rev 14.
There is a ton on Rev 14 i have not even gotten to.
