Secret Rapture or Second Coming?

[Psalm1]

You will never be converted to any position unless you are actually willing to actively and sincerely consider what you are being shown and try to look at it and understand it from the perspective of that position. Having a closed mind will not help you one little bit...

If your doctrine was valid we could move forward.
When I say "convert me" I am challenging you to IRREFUTABLY present your case FROM THE BIBLE.
You use a workbook .
I use a bible.

 

[GaryA]

If I say there is nothing in Daniel 9:24-27 that has anything to do with the End Times Scenario - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

If I say there is no 7-year 'prophetic' End Times period - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

If I say there is no gap in the 70 weeks of Daniel and that the entire 70 weeks of Daniel - a continuous unbroken 490 years - are 100% past history - fulfilled - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

If I say there will be no 7-year treaty between any antichrist and Israel (as being in accordance with bible prophecy) - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

(please see - if you dare and are not afraid)

Seventy Weeks

If I say that there will be only one [more] appearance/return of Christ - the Second Coming of Christ - and that every verse listed in the table on this web page is referring to the same exact singular "coming" of Christ - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over:

(please see - if you dare and are not afraid)

Second Coming

If I say there is truth in the patterns found in the chart/table on this web page - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over:

(please see - if you dare and are not afraid)

Order Of Events

If I say that there is a special significance in/to the phrase '( whoso readeth, let him understand: )' found in Matthew 24 (and its counterpart in Mark) that needs to be properly understood in order to properly interpret the verse - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

If I say that Matthew 24:15-20, Mark 13:14-18, and Luke 21:20-23 are all-three referring to the same exact 'event' in history - and, that it occurred ~70 A.D. - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

If I say that there is a ~3.5-year span of time "embedded" in Matthew 24:29 - which coincides with the time of the Two Witnesses and the Trumpet Events - and that the Two Witnesses actually cause the Trumpet Events to occur through their testimony and witness - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

(please see - if you dare and are not afraid)

Olivet Discourse

If I say that the prophecy of the Olivet Discourse - as well as the prophecy of Revelation - transpire over a long period of time and not a short one (i.e. the supposed 7-year tribulation period) - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

If I say that these web pages purposely do not include a long drawn-out explanation of any kind that might be taken as telling you what you should believe because you must be able to see the truth in the scriptures directly on your own - you will not believe me - conversation over.

My "case" presents itself directly from the Bible and recorded history - and virtually nothing else. I exceedingly very rarely read commentaries by past preachers/teachers who have bought into the extreme error that have so increasingly flooded modern Christian thinking - 'pre-trib' rapture being at the very top of the list.

I have been "making my case" for years on CC - but, alas, no one is paying attention - especially those who are "hard-core-attached" to things like the 'pre-trib' rapture belief - who are not listening to anyone or anything except the well-known past-and-present promoters of wide-spread long-time error.

All you have to do is put aside all of the 'crap' you have been taught and start fresh with only the Bible - if you would only be willing...

You prefer to believe modern wisdom-of-men thinking rather than pay attention to what the Bible really actually says.

Of course, you do not even realize that this is what has transpired - so, it is understandable - all I can possibly do in such a situation is pray that God will somehow open your eyes to the truth. Nonetheless, it is true - you simply cannot see it - and, will not be able to see it until your swallow your pride and arrogance and let God have His way with your way of thinking and the way you approach scripture.

If your doctrine was valid we could move forward.

This reeks of:

"There is no possible way that your 'doctrine' is-or-even-could-be correct and mine is-or-even-could-be in error."

And, THIS is why you will continue in error - because, your heart and mind are fixated on something that comes from man rather than from God.

 

[GaryA]

the extreme error that have so increasingly flooded modern Christian thinking

that has

 

[GaryA]

I constantly hear " I was pretrib then I studied the bible"

Good! It is wonderful if folks are constantly waking up to the truth.

I was raised in church with the 'pre-trib' view being taught; however, my own personal just-me-and-the-Bible[-and-the-Holy-Spirit] study showed me the error of it - been 'post-trib' ever since...

 

[GaryA]

If I say that the prophecy of the Olivet Discourse - as well as the prophecy of Revelation - transpire over a long period of time and not a short one (i.e. the supposed 7-year tribulation period) - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

When studying Bible prophecy, "God's time frame" must always be considered.

 

[GaryA]

3) seeing end times through a wrong prism, then seeing verses that don't apply, and making them apply.

You mean - like, Daniel 9 - which has absolutely nothing to do with the End Times Scenario - but, has false meaning forced into/upon it - so that it might be used to "prop up" the 'pre-trib' idea of a '7-year tribulation period'?

Yes - #3 - there is a whole lot of that in the 'pre-trib' view.

 

[Psalm1]

If I say there is nothing in Daniel 9:24-27 that has anything to do with the End Times Scenario - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

If I say there is no 7-year 'prophetic' End Times period - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

If I say there is no gap in the 70 weeks of Daniel and that the entire 70 weeks of Daniel - a continuous unbroken 490 years - are 100% past history - fulfilled - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

If I say there will be no 7-year treaty between any antichrist and Israel (as being in accordance with bible prophecy) - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

(please see - if you dare and are not afraid)

Seventy Weeks

If I say that there will be only one [more] appearance/return of Christ - the Second Coming of Christ - and that every verse listed in the table on this web page is referring to the same exact singular "coming" of Christ - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over:

(please see - if you dare and are not afraid)

Second Coming

If I say there is truth in the patterns found in the chart/table on this web page - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over:

(please see - if you dare and are not afraid)

Order Of Events

If I say that there is a special significance in/to the phrase '( whoso readeth, let him understand: )' found in Matthew 24 (and its counterpart in Mark) that needs to be properly understood in order to properly interpret the verse - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

If I say that Matthew 24:15-20, Mark 13:14-18, and Luke 21:20-23 are all-three referring to the same exact 'event' in history - and, that it occurred ~70 A.D. - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

If I say that there is a ~3.5-year span of time "embedded" in Matthew 24:29 - which coincides with the time of the Two Witnesses and the Trumpet Events - and that the Two Witnesses actually cause the Trumpet Events to occur through their testimony and witness - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

(please see - if you dare and are not afraid)

Olivet Discourse

If I say that the prophecy of the Olivet Discourse - as well as the prophecy of Revelation - transpire over a long period of time and not a short one (i.e. the supposed 7-year tribulation period) - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

If I say that these web pages purposely do not include a long drawn-out explanation of any kind that might be taken as telling you what you should believe because you must be able to see the truth in the scriptures directly on your own - you will not believe me - conversation over.

My "case" presents itself directly from the Bible and recorded history - and virtually nothing else. I exceedingly very rarely read commentaries by past preachers/teachers who have bought into the extreme error that have so increasingly flooded modern Christian thinking - 'pre-trib' rapture being at the very top of the list.

I have been "making my case" for years on CC - but, alas, no one is paying attention - especially those who are "hard-core-attached" to things like the 'pre-trib' rapture belief - who are not listening to anyone or anything except the well-known past-and-present promoters of wide-spread long-time error.

All you have to do is put aside all of the 'crap' you have been taught and start fresh with only the Bible - if you would only be willing...

You prefer to believe modern wisdom-of-men thinking rather than pay attention to what the Bible really actually says.

Of course, you do not even realize that this is what has transpired - so, it is understandable - all I can possibly do in such a situation is pray that God will somehow open your eyes to the truth. Nonetheless, it is true - you simply cannot see it - and, will not be able to see it until your swallow your pride and arrogance and let God have His way with your way of thinking and the way you approach scripture.


This reeks of:

"There is no possible way that your 'doctrine' is-or-even-could-be correct and mine is-or-even-could-be in error."

And, THIS is why you will continue in error - because, your heart and mind are fixated on something that comes from man rather than from God.

QUOTE
"If I say that there will be only one [more] appearance/return of Christ - the Second Coming of Christ - and that every verse listed in the table on this web page is referring to the same exact singular "coming" of Christ - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over:
(please see - if you dare and are not afraid"

No fear here.
The Bible is against you big time.
Don't change it.
But you do with no fear.
Rev 19 second coming on horses is the same as the Rev 14:14 return, with Jesus sitting on a cloud HOLDING A SICKLE??????
**************OR****************
Rev 19, with Jesus and his army coming on millions of Horses, is the same as Jesus vivid depiction of matt 25, coming for his bride, WITH ZERO SETTING OR MANNER of rev 19.
Literally IMPOSSIBLE.
100% IMPOSSIBLE.
REV 19 IS AFTER THE WRATH PART OF THE TRIB.
REV 14 :14 GATHERING IS DURING THE TRIB AND PREWRATH.
So your "one coming" error has a bonus of the dead in CHRIST RISING AFTER THE Rev 14:14 gathering, that is PRIOR TO, (AHEM...BY YEARS), the Rev 19 second coming, where postribbers erroneously invent a fake rapture THAT CAN NOT POSSIBLY HAPPEN.

I just anahilated your doctrine with one concept out of many.

 

[Psalm1]

Good! It is wonderful if folks are constantly waking up to the truth.

I was raised in church with the 'pre-trib' view being taught; however, my own personal just-me-and-the-Bible[-and-the-Holy-Spirit] study showed me the error of it - been 'post-trib' ever since...

I have left your doctrine in ashes and you are oblivious.

 

[Psalm1]

If I say there is nothing in Daniel 9:24-27 that has anything to do with the End Times Scenario - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

If I say there is no 7-year 'prophetic' End Times period - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

If I say there is no gap in the 70 weeks of Daniel and that the entire 70 weeks of Daniel - a continuous unbroken 490 years - are 100% past history - fulfilled - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

If I say there will be no 7-year treaty between any antichrist and Israel (as being in accordance with bible prophecy) - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

(please see - if you dare and are not afraid)

Seventy Weeks

If I say that there will be only one [more] appearance/return of Christ - the Second Coming of Christ - and that every verse listed in the table on this web page is referring to the same exact singular "coming" of Christ - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over:

(please see - if you dare and are not afraid)

Second Coming

If I say there is truth in the patterns found in the chart/table on this web page - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over:

(please see - if you dare and are not afraid)

Order Of Events

If I say that there is a special significance in/to the phrase '( whoso readeth, let him understand: )' found in Matthew 24 (and its counterpart in Mark) that needs to be properly understood in order to properly interpret the verse - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

If I say that Matthew 24:15-20, Mark 13:14-18, and Luke 21:20-23 are all-three referring to the same exact 'event' in history - and, that it occurred ~70 A.D. - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

If I say that there is a ~3.5-year span of time "embedded" in Matthew 24:29 - which coincides with the time of the Two Witnesses and the Trumpet Events - and that the Two Witnesses actually cause the Trumpet Events to occur through their testimony and witness - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

(please see - if you dare and are not afraid)

Olivet Discourse

If I say that the prophecy of the Olivet Discourse - as well as the prophecy of Revelation - transpire over a long period of time and not a short one (i.e. the supposed 7-year tribulation period) - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over.

If I say that these web pages purposely do not include a long drawn-out explanation of any kind that might be taken as telling you what you should believe because you must be able to see the truth in the scriptures directly on your own - you will not believe me - conversation over.

My "case" presents itself directly from the Bible and recorded history - and virtually nothing else. I exceedingly very rarely read commentaries by past preachers/teachers who have bought into the extreme error that have so increasingly flooded modern Christian thinking - 'pre-trib' rapture being at the very top of the list.

I have been "making my case" for years on CC - but, alas, no one is paying attention - especially those who are "hard-core-attached" to things like the 'pre-trib' rapture belief - who are not listening to anyone or anything except the well-known past-and-present promoters of wide-spread long-time error.

All you have to do is put aside all of the 'crap' you have been taught and start fresh with only the Bible - if you would only be willing...

You prefer to believe modern wisdom-of-men thinking rather than pay attention to what the Bible really actually says.

Of course, you do not even realize that this is what has transpired - so, it is understandable - all I can possibly do in such a situation is pray that God will somehow open your eyes to the truth. Nonetheless, it is true - you simply cannot see it - and, will not be able to see it until your swallow your pride and arrogance and let God have His way with your way of thinking and the way you approach scripture.


This reeks of:

"There is no possible way that your 'doctrine' is-or-even-could-be correct and mine is-or-even-could-be in error."

And, THIS is why you will continue in error - because, your heart and mind are fixated on something that comes from man rather than from God.

QUOTE
"If I say that there is a special significance in/to the phrase '( whoso readeth, let him understand: )' found in Matthew 24 (and its counterpart in Mark) that needs to be properly understood in order to properly interpret the verse - you shut your mind and will not listen - conversation over."

Your deal is EASILY proven false.
The BIBLE IS AGAINST YOU.
So, no my mind is not open to biblical impossibilities.
These same people that claim they :
"used to be a pretriber, but then they read their Bible, and so now they're a poststribber"
...., every single one of them has the erroneous assumption that there's only 1 coming.
Well... a baby in Christ with a bible can disprove that silliness.
So yes my mind is closed to some rabbit trail that is not biblical.
No brainer indeed.

 

[GaryA]

We can agree to disagree agreeably.

Time is on my side.

And - I can wait...

 

[GaryA]

In the 'grammar of the language', biblical prophecy is part literal and part figurative. And, error comes in if/when you take something that is literal to be figurative or something that is figurative to be literal.

You have to be able to discern from the context whether some particular 'detail' is literal or figurative - and, you have to discern correctly - because, it matters - it is the difference between truth and error.

You have to be especially careful when you are studying a 'vision'.

When you look at John's vision in Revelation, you have to remember that the 'events' are literal while the particular-and-specific 'details' of what he sees in the vision are not - however, they do represent something.

 

[GaryA]

In other words, the imagery of the vision is not necessarily literal.

We do not know for a fact that Jesus will [ever] actually appear riding a white horse - He may or He may not - it is His option. In the prophecy, it is imagery - it is what John saw - and, it has important and significant meaning - but, it does not mean that it is actually literal.

 

[GaryA]

When something in biblical prophecy is literal - you need to accept it and believe it as being true.

When something in biblical prophecy is figurative - you need to focus on what it represents and never assume that the 'detail' of it is literal.

 

[GaryA]

If you will insist that Jesus will actually appear riding a white horse - will you also insist that He will have a [literal] twoedged sword sticking out of His mouth? (see Revelation 1:10)

Of course not - it is only imagery in a vision. It definitely has meaning - it represents something (Ephesians 6:17 anyone?) - but, it is not to be assumed to be literal.

Neither should the white horse be assumed to be literal.

Now, the white horse represents several things - all of which are characteristics of who-and-what Christ is in the context of His appearance.

 

[GaryA]

If you build/construct your eschatology on figurative-things-assumed-literal, then "you are in a mess of trouble" where having a proper understanding of the actual truth is concerned.

 

[GaryA]

There is no 'wrath' during the 'tribulation period'. In fact, there is no 'wrath' before the Second Coming of Christ.

There is no 'gathering' before-or-during the 'tribulation period'. In fact, there is no 'gathering' until Christ appears.

When Christ appears, it is the Second Coming of Christ. And, He will be here to stay - to set up His kingdom on earth.

 

[GaryA]

So your "one coming" error has a bonus of the dead in CHRIST RISING AFTER THE Rev 14:14 gathering, that is PRIOR TO, (AHEM...BY YEARS), the Rev 19 second coming, where postribbers erroneously invent a fake rapture THAT CAN NOT POSSIBLY HAPPEN.

Are you willfully admitting that you are incapable of considering and thinking about something I said from its context and perspective???

If I say [only] "one coming" - you need to be able to consider and understand it from a "one coming" perspective - your consideration and thinking will immediately fail miserably if you cannot escape your multiple-coming belief for even a moment. (Or, as it were, "put it on a shelf" temporarily while considering another concept, idea, etc.)

 

[GaryA]

These same people that claim they :
"used to be a pretriber, but then they read their Bible, and so now they're a poststribber"
...., every single one of them has the erroneous assumption that there's only 1 coming.
Well... a baby in Christ with a bible can disprove that silliness.

Well... a baby in Christ with a Bible - not having been indoctrinated with the 'pre-trib' view of eschatology - can/should/will easily see clearly that the Bible indicates/illustrates only 1 coming - and that - assumptions about more than 1 coming are total-and-complete silliness.

 

[Psalm1]

Well... a baby in Christ with a Bible - not having been indoctrinated with the 'pre-trib' view of eschatology - can/should/will easily see clearly that the Bible indicates/illustrates only 1 coming - and that - assumptions about more than 1 coming are total-and-complete silliness.

There ya go.
Let's pretend JESUS,sitting on a cloud, holding a sickle, gathering FROM EARTH, IN REV 14:14, is the exact same thing as Jesus with his army sitting on millions of horses, blackening the syk, as a warrior, coming in a slaughter, with no gathering from earth .
LETS PRETEND THAT IS TRUE.

You fool yourselves, not anyone without the posrribber prism.

A simple reading is needed....no spin.
Remember it is forbidden to change Revelation.
You would be wise to not only obey.

......but to reframe Revelation on a world wide web?????

 

[Psalm1]

Are you willfully admitting that you are incapable of considering and thinking about something I said from its context and perspective???

If I say [only] "one coming" - you need to be able to consider and understand it from a "one coming" perspective - your consideration and thinking will immediately fail miserably if you cannot escape your multiple-coming belief for even a moment. (Or, as it were, "put it on a shelf" temporarily while considering another concept, idea, etc.)

...and yet you cannot not answer

Your claim is ,"one coming", AFTER REV 14:14's gathering DURING THE TRIB.
HELLO....that gathering of rev 14;14 IS PRIOR TO. Rev 19's coming by over a year.
So your claim is that the rapture happens AFTER the gathering of rev 14, Which means you have the dead in CHRIST NOT RISING BEFORE THE LIVING.
( making 1 thes 4, a mistake by Paul)

Your inability to address that, is telling.
Your "1coming" theory.... destroyed.
...and that is just one of several that completely destroy the "one coming" false theory.

There are 3 that are easily seen , actually. But since your mind is closed to truth and the word, you will have a hard job of defending error.
So easily disproved.
3 vivid comings.