Secret Rapture or Second Coming?

[Psalm1]

There is no 'wrath' during the 'tribulation period'. In fact, there is no 'wrath' before the Second Coming of Christ.

There is no 'gathering' before-or-during the 'tribulation period'. In fact, there is no 'gathering' until Christ appears.

When Christ appears, it is the Second Coming of Christ. And, He will be here to stay - to set up His kingdom on earth.

You can call it anything you want.
It is a 7 yr period, with the ac descecrating the temple mid trib, (mid 7 yr period).

 

[Psalm1]

If you will insist that Jesus will actually appear riding a white horse - will you also insist that He will have a [literal] twoedged sword sticking out of His mouth? (see Revelation 1:10)

Of course not - it is only imagery in a vision. It definitely has meaning - it represents something (Ephesians 6:17 anyone?) - but, it is not to be assumed to be literal.

Neither should the white horse be assumed to be literal.

Now, the white horse represents several things - all of which are characteristics of who-and-what Christ is in the context of His appearance.

Pure conjecture on your part.

Let's pretend his robe is symbolic, and he is in jeans and a t shirt.
Then the sickle, the horses, and even what is written on his robe is not really there.
Let's pretend when John saw him on patmos He really did not appear as John described him. None of that was there and again he was in jeans and a t shirt.


IOW our imagination can make that bible say most anything we need it to.

You are basically admitting Rev is not real, but how you imagine it.

 

[dkontner]

The OT is nothing but prophecy... I've always wondered about this, with confidence, that this is a picture of what we see today. Nothing is new.

Jeremiah 14​

13 Then said I, Ah, Lord God! behold, the prophets say unto them, Ye shall not see the sword, neither shall ye have famine; but I will give you assured peace in this place.
14 Then the Lord said unto me, The prophets prophesy lies in my name: I sent them not, neither have I commanded them, neither spake unto them: they prophesy unto you a false vision and divination, and a thing of nought, and the deceit of their heart.
15 Therefore thus saith the Lord concerning the prophets that prophesy in my name, and I sent them not, yet they say, Sword and famine shall not be in this land; By sword and famine shall those prophets be consumed.
16 And the people to whom they prophesy shall be cast out in the streets of Jerusalem because of the famine and the sword; and they shall have none to bury them, them, their wives, nor their sons, nor their daughters: for I will pour their wickedness upon them.

 

[Psalm1]

In the 'grammar of the language', biblical prophecy is part literal and part figurative. And, error comes in if/when you take something that is literal to be figurative or something that is figurative to be literal.

You have to be able to discern from the context whether some particular 'detail' is literal or figurative - and, you have to discern correctly - because, it matters - it is the difference between truth and error.

You have to be especially careful when you are studying a 'vision'.

When you look at John's vision in Revelation, you have to remember that the 'events' are literal while the particular-and-specific 'details' of what he sees in the vision are not - however, they do represent something.

Translation-
" once we establish that anyone can simply make up meaning to the book of Revelation, I can guide you through it with my new imagery "

Go ahead and change a book God says is forbidden to change.

No wonder you are so far off.

 

[JacobGilbert]

Postrib rapture paints itself into several corners.
1) the 144,000 can not be what tge bible says
2) Rev 14 debunks the "one coming fallacy"
3) the 10 virgin parable forever destroys any hope of a postrib rapture....just look at how they change it. ...appalling.
4) every church rapture verse ( which you did not cover), is a pretrib setting
5) no postrib rapture teacher initiates ANYTHING of the marriage supper, or the bride/groom dynamic.
Red flags galore....since the rapture is the gathering of the bride.

So postribbers do not understand the rapture, it's purpose, or the purpose of the 7 yr trib.

Here are my points on what you said.


First, the 144,000 — the Bible clearly says they're 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. Post-trib has zero problem with that. They're Jewish believers sealed during the Tribulation. Doesn't mean they have to be the Church.


Second, Revelation 14 doesn't debunk the one-coming view. It actually fits pretty well later in the Tribulation after the mark of the beast stuff in chapter 13. The harvest in Rev 14:14-16 looks a lot like the gathering of believers.


On the 10 virgins — I think you're stretching that one pretty far. The parable is mainly about being spiritually ready when the Bridegroom comes. It doesn't prove a pre-trib rapture. Plenty of post-trib folks still take it as a serious warning.


As for the "every church rapture verse" being pre-trib, I'd love to see the list. The main one is 1 Thess 4, but that passage has really strong parallels with Matthew 24 (trumpet, clouds, gathering). And Jesus Himself says in Matthew 24 that the gathering of the elect happens right after the tribulation.


On the marriage supper and bride/groom thing — Revelation 19 puts the marriage supper right before Jesus comes back to earth with His saints. That actually works fine with post-trib. The idea that the bride has to be in heaven the whole 7 years isn't clearly taught in Scripture.


Look, I get why pre-trib is comforting, but calling post-trib "appalling" and saying we don't understand the bride or the purpose of the Tribulation feels like a big overreach. A lot of us have studied this carefully. The plain words of Jesus in Matthew 24 are still the biggest hurdle for pre-trib in my opinion.

Understand that just becasue me like may others believe in post-trib, that does not mean we believe all Christians will suffer with the non believers during the trib. We just disagree on the timing and as I said above.

 

[dkontner]

I believe the 'firstfruits' are Jesus and the remnant that He saved when He was in the heart of the earth and led captivity captive and gave gifts to men. He stated Abraham saw His day and was glad. He quoted from Isaiah 61, which is clearly about saving the remant and what happens to the unbelievers. The scriptures always say the new testament saints are the first fruit of the spirit, because the Holy Spirit was not given to the OT saints. In 70 AD, they were scattered. If you believe God.

I beleieve the 144,000 are old testament saints.

1 Corinthians 15​

20 But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
...
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Revelation 14​

4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.

 

[Psalm1]

Here are my points on what you said.


First, the 144,000 — the Bible clearly says they're 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. Post-trib has zero problem with that. They're Jewish believers sealed during the Tribulation. Doesn't mean they have to be the Church.


Second, Revelation 14 doesn't debunk the one-coming view. It actually fits pretty well later in the Tribulation after the mark of the beast stuff in chapter 13. The harvest in Rev 14:14-16 looks a lot like the gathering of believers.


On the 10 virgins — I think you're stretching that one pretty far. The parable is mainly about being spiritually ready when the Bridegroom comes. It doesn't prove a pre-trib rapture. Plenty of post-trib folks still take it as a serious warning.


As for the "every church rapture verse" being pre-trib, I'd love to see the list. The main one is 1 Thess 4, but that passage has really strong parallels with Matthew 24 (trumpet, clouds, gathering). And Jesus Himself says in Matthew 24 that the gathering of the elect happens right after the tribulation.


On the marriage supper and bride/groom thing — Revelation 19 puts the marriage supper right before Jesus comes back to earth with His saints. That actually works fine with post-trib. The idea that the bride has to be in heaven the whole 7 years isn't clearly taught in Scripture.


Look, I get why pre-trib is comforting, but calling post-trib "appalling" and saying we don't understand the bride or the purpose of the Tribulation feels like a big overreach. A lot of us have studied this carefully. The plain words of Jesus in Matthew 24 are still the biggest hurdle for pre-trib in my opinion.

Understand that just becasue me like may others believe in post-trib, that does not mean we believe all Christians will suffer with the non believers during the trib. We just disagree on the timing and as I said above.

You are Basically glossing over my concerns.
Apparently you think the 7 yr trib spoken of in Daniel is 3.5 years
You are Apparently thinking when Jesus says great tribulation, it is not the 7 yr trib.
QUOTE
"The plain words of Jesus in Matthew 24 are still the biggest hurdle for pre-trib in my opinion."
Actually if you read the plain words you see 2 comings in mat 24.
Jesus said "after the trb" ANGELS GATHER, NOT JESUS, AND THAT GATHERING IS IN HEAVEN, NOT EARTH.

Then Jesus describes another gathering in the same chapter, NOT AFTER THE TRIB., but "BEFORE THE FLOOD", (Pretrib rapture), using Noah, before the flood, (pretrib) as a analogy.
Vivid and clear.
Complete with half the church raptured, in His words ( one taken, one left behind)

QUOTE
"First, the 144,000 — the Bible clearly says they're 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. Post-trib has zero problem with that. They're Jewish believers sealed during the Tribulation. Doesn't mean they have to be the Church."
Ok, let me explain why your doctrine normally misplaces and reframes the 144,000.
The correct and true reading,is that, yes they are, as you say, messianic Jews taken from the 12 tribes,
They are "firstfruit Jews"
That means "main harvest Jews follows"
So rev 14 has the firstfruits gathered and in heaven, then main harvest Jews gathered by Jesus sitting on a cloud , holding a sickle,in Rev 14;14.
That is DURING THE TRIB.
There is no rapture of the church during the trib.
QUOTE
"As for the "every church rapture verse" being pre-trib, I'd love to see the list. The main one is 1 Thess 4, but that passage has really strong parallels with Matthew 24 (trumpet, clouds, gathering). And Jesus Himself says in Matthew 24 that the gathering of the elect happens right after the tribulation."

Reread it.
It says after the trib angels gather, not Jesus, and that gathering is in heaven, not earth.
But I have never, ever, seen a postribber keep reading in the same chapter where Jesus describes VIVIDLY, A SECOND COMING.
I list?
Mat 24
Acts 1
Mat 25,
The 2 escape verses
The last supper dialogue
1 thes 4
Rev 14
Rev 13...the ac kills all refusing the mark
....the ac is given power to overcome the saints
..... the saints give up their lives in martyrdom

All that and more vs what? One postribber verse that is not even read correctly????

 

[Psalm1]

Here are my points on what you said.


First, the 144,000 — the Bible clearly says they're 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. Post-trib has zero problem with that. They're Jewish believers sealed during the Tribulation. Doesn't mean they have to be the Church.


Second, Revelation 14 doesn't debunk the one-coming view. It actually fits pretty well later in the Tribulation after the mark of the beast stuff in chapter 13. The harvest in Rev 14:14-16 looks a lot like the gathering of believers.


On the 10 virgins — I think you're stretching that one pretty far. The parable is mainly about being spiritually ready when the Bridegroom comes. It doesn't prove a pre-trib rapture. Plenty of post-trib folks still take it as a serious warning.


As for the "every church rapture verse" being pre-trib, I'd love to see the list. The main one is 1 Thess 4, but that passage has really strong parallels with Matthew 24 (trumpet, clouds, gathering). And Jesus Himself says in Matthew 24 that the gathering of the elect happens right after the tribulation.


On the marriage supper and bride/groom thing — Revelation 19 puts the marriage supper right before Jesus comes back to earth with His saints. That actually works fine with post-trib. The idea that the bride has to be in heaven the whole 7 years isn't clearly taught in Scripture.


Look, I get why pre-trib is comforting, but calling post-trib "appalling" and saying we don't understand the bride or the purpose of the Tribulation feels like a big overreach. A lot of us have studied this carefully. The plain words of Jesus in Matthew 24 are still the biggest hurdle for pre-trib in my opinion.

Understand that just becasue me like may others believe in post-trib, that does not mean we believe all Christians will suffer with the non believers during the trib. We just disagree on the timing and as I said above.

QUOTE
"On the 10 virgins — I think you're stretching that one pretty far. The parable is mainly about being spiritually ready when the Bridegroom comes. It doesn't prove a pre-trib rapture. Plenty of post-trib folks still take it as a serious warning"
Half are taken.
All are born again believers
But it has a pretrib rapture setting, and the bride is taken to the wedding.
(You would need a postrib setting)

You claim there is one coming.
When?
Rev 19 with the white horses?

 

[Psalm1]

Here are my points on what you said.


First, the 144,000 — the Bible clearly says they're 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. Post-trib has zero problem with that. They're Jewish believers sealed during the Tribulation. Doesn't mean they have to be the Church.


Second, Revelation 14 doesn't debunk the one-coming view. It actually fits pretty well later in the Tribulation after the mark of the beast stuff in chapter 13. The harvest in Rev 14:14-16 looks a lot like the gathering of believers.


On the 10 virgins — I think you're stretching that one pretty far. The parable is mainly about being spiritually ready when the Bridegroom comes. It doesn't prove a pre-trib rapture. Plenty of post-trib folks still take it as a serious warning.


As for the "every church rapture verse" being pre-trib, I'd love to see the list. The main one is 1 Thess 4, but that passage has really strong parallels with Matthew 24 (trumpet, clouds, gathering). And Jesus Himself says in Matthew 24 that the gathering of the elect happens right after the tribulation.


On the marriage supper and bride/groom thing — Revelation 19 puts the marriage supper right before Jesus comes back to earth with His saints. That actually works fine with post-trib. The idea that the bride has to be in heaven the whole 7 years isn't clearly taught in Scripture.


Look, I get why pre-trib is comforting, but calling post-trib "appalling" and saying we don't understand the bride or the purpose of the Tribulation feels like a big overreach. A lot of us have studied this carefully. The plain words of Jesus in Matthew 24 are still the biggest hurdle for pre-trib in my opinion.

Understand that just becasue me like may others believe in post-trib, that does not mean we believe all Christians will suffer with the non believers during the trib. We just disagree on the timing and as I said above.

QUOTE
"Look, I get why pre-trib is comforting, but calling post-trib "appalling" and saying we don't understand the bride or the purpose of the Tribulation feels like a big overreach. A lot of us have studied this carefully. The plain words of Jesus in Matthew 24 are still the biggest hurdle for pre-trib in my opinion."

I have around 8 or 9 verses.
Post for me one verse supporting the postrib rapture theory.

 

[Psalm1]

Here are my points on what you said.


First, the 144,000 — the Bible clearly says they're 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. Post-trib has zero problem with that. They're Jewish believers sealed during the Tribulation. Doesn't mean they have to be the Church.


Second, Revelation 14 doesn't debunk the one-coming view. It actually fits pretty well later in the Tribulation after the mark of the beast stuff in chapter 13. The harvest in Rev 14:14-16 looks a lot like the gathering of believers.


On the 10 virgins — I think you're stretching that one pretty far. The parable is mainly about being spiritually ready when the Bridegroom comes. It doesn't prove a pre-trib rapture. Plenty of post-trib folks still take it as a serious warning.


As for the "every church rapture verse" being pre-trib, I'd love to see the list. The main one is 1 Thess 4, but that passage has really strong parallels with Matthew 24 (trumpet, clouds, gathering). And Jesus Himself says in Matthew 24 that the gathering of the elect happens right after the tribulation.


On the marriage supper and bride/groom thing — Revelation 19 puts the marriage supper right before Jesus comes back to earth with His saints. That actually works fine with post-trib. The idea that the bride has to be in heaven the whole 7 years isn't clearly taught in Scripture.


Look, I get why pre-trib is comforting, but calling post-trib "appalling" and saying we don't understand the bride or the purpose of the Tribulation feels like a big overreach. A lot of us have studied this carefully. The plain words of Jesus in Matthew 24 are still the biggest hurdle for pre-trib in my opinion.

Understand that just becasue me like may others believe in post-trib, that does not mean we believe all Christians will suffer with the non believers during the trib. We just disagree on the timing and as I said above.

QUOTE
"Understand that just becasue me like may others believe in post-trib, that does not mean we believe all Christians will suffer with the non believers during the trib. We just disagree on the timing and as I said above."
Read rev 12 and 13 and then tell me you go through the trib

It clearly says you guys all die.
Note the word "all" in those passages

 

[Psalm1]

Here are my points on what you said.


First, the 144,000 — the Bible clearly says they're 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. Post-trib has zero problem with that. They're Jewish believers sealed during the Tribulation. Doesn't mean they have to be the Church.


Second, Revelation 14 doesn't debunk the one-coming view. It actually fits pretty well later in the Tribulation after the mark of the beast stuff in chapter 13. The harvest in Rev 14:14-16 looks a lot like the gathering of believers.


On the 10 virgins — I think you're stretching that one pretty far. The parable is mainly about being spiritually ready when the Bridegroom comes. It doesn't prove a pre-trib rapture. Plenty of post-trib folks still take it as a serious warning.


As for the "every church rapture verse" being pre-trib, I'd love to see the list. The main one is 1 Thess 4, but that passage has really strong parallels with Matthew 24 (trumpet, clouds, gathering). And Jesus Himself says in Matthew 24 that the gathering of the elect happens right after the tribulation.


On the marriage supper and bride/groom thing — Revelation 19 puts the marriage supper right before Jesus comes back to earth with His saints. That actually works fine with post-trib. The idea that the bride has to be in heaven the whole 7 years isn't clearly taught in Scripture.


Look, I get why pre-trib is comforting, but calling post-trib "appalling" and saying we don't understand the bride or the purpose of the Tribulation feels like a big overreach. A lot of us have studied this carefully. The plain words of Jesus in Matthew 24 are still the biggest hurdle for pre-trib in my opinion.

Understand that just becasue me like may others believe in post-trib, that does not mean we believe all Christians will suffer with the non believers during the trib. We just disagree on the timing and as I said above.

QUOTE

"Look, I get why pre-trib is comforting...."

Thank Jesus
He taught it 4 separate times.
Not 1
Not 2
4 times

But you can miss the rapture if that is your desire.

 

[Psalm1]

Here are my points on what you said.


First, the 144,000 — the Bible clearly says they're 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. Post-trib has zero problem with that. They're Jewish believers sealed during the Tribulation. Doesn't mean they have to be the Church.


Second, Revelation 14 doesn't debunk the one-coming view. It actually fits pretty well later in the Tribulation after the mark of the beast stuff in chapter 13. The harvest in Rev 14:14-16 looks a lot like the gathering of believers.


On the 10 virgins — I think you're stretching that one pretty far. The parable is mainly about being spiritually ready when the Bridegroom comes. It doesn't prove a pre-trib rapture. Plenty of post-trib folks still take it as a serious warning.


As for the "every church rapture verse" being pre-trib, I'd love to see the list. The main one is 1 Thess 4, but that passage has really strong parallels with Matthew 24 (trumpet, clouds, gathering). And Jesus Himself says in Matthew 24 that the gathering of the elect happens right after the tribulation.


On the marriage supper and bride/groom thing — Revelation 19 puts the marriage supper right before Jesus comes back to earth with His saints. That actually works fine with post-trib. The idea that the bride has to be in heaven the whole 7 years isn't clearly taught in Scripture.


Look, I get why pre-trib is comforting, but calling post-trib "appalling" and saying we don't understand the bride or the purpose of the Tribulation feels like a big overreach. A lot of us have studied this carefully. The plain words of Jesus in Matthew 24 are still the biggest hurdle for pre-trib in my opinion.

Understand that just becasue me like may others believe in post-trib, that does not mean we believe all Christians will suffer with the non believers during the trib. We just disagree on the timing and as I said above.

QUOTE
"Second, Revelation 14 doesn't debunk the one-coming view. It actually fits pretty well later in the Tribulation after the mark of the beast stuff in chapter 13. The harvest in Rev 14:14-16 looks a lot like the gathering of believers."

Rev 19 is a totally different coming.
I think you yourself, just debunked a "one coming" theory.

 

[JacobGilbert]

You are Basically glossing over my concerns.
Apparently you think the 7 yr trib spoken of in Daniel is 3.5 years
You are Apparently thinking when Jesus says great tribulation, it is not the 7 yr trib.
QUOTE
"The plain words of Jesus in Matthew 24 are still the biggest hurdle for pre-trib in my opinion."
Actually if you read the plain words you see 2 comings in mat 24.
Jesus said "after the trb" ANGELS GATHER, NOT JESUS, AND THAT GATHERING IS IN HEAVEN, NOT EARTH.

Then Jesus describes another gathering in the same chapter, NOT AFTER THE TRIB., but "BEFORE THE FLOOD", (Pretrib rapture), using Noah, before the flood, (pretrib) as a analogy.
Vivid and clear.
Complete with half the church raptured, in His words ( one taken, one left behind)

QUOTE
"First, the 144,000 — the Bible clearly says they're 12,000 from each tribe of Israel. Post-trib has zero problem with that. They're Jewish believers sealed during the Tribulation. Doesn't mean they have to be the Church."
Ok, let me explain why your doctrine normally misplaces and reframes the 144,000.
The correct and true reading,is that, yes they are, as you say, messianic Jews taken from the 12 tribes,
They are "firstfruit Jews"
That means "main harvest Jews follows"
So rev 14 has the firstfruits gathered and in heaven, then main harvest Jews gathered by Jesus sitting on a cloud , holding a sickle,in Rev 14;14.
That is DURING THE TRIB.
There is no rapture of the church during the trib.
QUOTE
"As for the "every church rapture verse" being pre-trib, I'd love to see the list. The main one is 1 Thess 4, but that passage has really strong parallels with Matthew 24 (trumpet, clouds, gathering). And Jesus Himself says in Matthew 24 that the gathering of the elect happens right after the tribulation."

Reread it.
It says after the trib angels gather, not Jesus, and that gathering is in heaven, not earth.
But I have never, ever, seen a postribber keep reading in the same chapter where Jesus describes VIVIDLY, A SECOND COMING.
I list?
Mat 24
Acts 1
Mat 25,
The 2 escape verses
The last supper dialogue
1 thes 4
Rev 14
Rev 13...the ac kills all refusing the mark
....the ac is given power to overcome the saints
..... the saints give up their lives in martyrdom

All that and more vs what? One postribber verse that is not even read correctly????

Hey, I’m not glossing over your concerns. But your recent pre-trib view — which was taught by men starting in the 1800s — is forcing the text in several places.


First, there is no 7-year Tribulation clearly taught anywhere in the Bible. That idea is a misinterpretation of Daniel 9:27. Daniel’s 70th week was already fulfilled in the first century through Christ’s ministry, His death, and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD. There is no future 7-year clock. That assumption is the shaky foundation the whole pre-trib system rests on.


Because of that, Matthew 24 is still a massive problem for your position. Jesus does not describe two comings in the chapter. He gives one continuous sequence: tribulation, cosmic signs, then “immediately after the tribulation of those days” the Son of Man comes on the clouds with power and great glory. He sends His angels with a loud trumpet to gather His elect. It’s Jesus’ own coming, not “just angels gathering in heaven.” The “one taken, one left” is judgment language — like the flood, where the wicked are taken away. Not a secret rapture of half the church.


Your take on Revelation 14 and the 144,000 doesn’t prove a pre-trib Church rapture either. The harvest fits at the end.


I’ve studied the verses you listed. 1 Thess 4 still matches Matthew 24 too closely (trumpet, clouds, gathering) to be a completely separate event years earlier. John 14, Matt 25, etc., all fit better with one climactic, visible return of Christ.


You can keep claiming post-tribbers don’t understand the bride or the rapture, but the plain words of Jesus in Matthew 24:29-31 remain the biggest hurdle for the pre-trib view. That’s not glossing over anything — it’s reading the text straightforwardly.


If you want to discuss, let’s stay with Scripture instead of broad dismissals.

 

[GaryA]

If you will insist that Jesus will actually appear riding a white horse - will you also insist that He will have a [literal] twoedged sword sticking out of His mouth? (see Revelation 1:10)

(see Revelation 1:16)

 

[GaryA]

...and yet you cannot not answer

Your claim is ,"one coming", AFTER REV 14:14's gathering DURING THE TRIB.
HELLO....that gathering of rev 14;14 IS PRIOR TO. Rev 19's coming by over a year.
So your claim is that the rapture happens AFTER the gathering of rev 14, Which means you have the dead in CHRIST NOT RISING BEFORE THE LIVING.
( making 1 thes 4, a mistake by Paul)

Your inability to address that, is telling.
Your "1coming" theory.... destroyed.
...and that is just one of several that completely destroy the "one coming" false theory.

There are 3 that are easily seen , actually. But since your mind is closed to truth and the word, you will have a hard job of defending error.
So easily disproved.
3 vivid comings.

I have answered and addressed plenty - you are not listening.

With specific regard to the Second Coming of Christ - there will be exactly one 'coming', exactly one 'resurrection', and exactly one 'rapture'.

The different passages in scripture that describe the Second Coming of Christ are different 'facets' or 'perspectives' of the same 'event'.

Your "3 vivid comings" are simply different passages describing different 'facets' or 'perspectives' of the same 'event'.

Every 'gathering' within the context of the Second Coming of Christ is the same event - the rapture.

I have arranged in the chart/table on this web page the order of events of the End Times Scenario:

Order Of Events

Stop imagining that I said anything any different...

The resurrected dead-in-Christ and the remaining alive-in-Christ will be "caught up" together at the same 'event' - the 'rapture'.

 

[GaryA]

Translation-
" once we establish that anyone can simply make up meaning to the book of Revelation, I can guide you through it with my new imagery "

Go ahead and change a book God says is forbidden to change.

No wonder you are so far off.

Has it ever occurred to you that it could be you and others who have "changed" the Bible to fit the ideas in your own imagination?

 

[GaryA]

QUOTE
"The plain words of Jesus in Matthew 24 are still the biggest hurdle for pre-trib in my opinion."
Actually if you read the plain words you see 2 comings in mat 24.
Jesus said "after the trb" ANGELS GATHER, NOT JESUS, AND THAT GATHERING IS IN HEAVEN, NOT EARTH.

Then Jesus describes another gathering in the same chapter, NOT AFTER THE TRIB., but "BEFORE THE FLOOD", (Pretrib rapture), using Noah, before the flood, (pretrib) as a analogy.

There you go again - focusing on the wrong details and missing the intended primary meaning while inventing something it does not actually say...

 

[GaryA]

QUOTE
"Understand that just becasue me like may others believe in post-trib, that does not mean we believe all Christians will suffer with the non believers during the trib. We just disagree on the timing and as I said above."
Read rev 12 and 13 and then tell me you go through the trib

It clearly says you guys all die.
Note the word "all" in those passages

Revelation 12:

1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: 2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. 3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. 4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. 5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days. 7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, 8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. 9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. 10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time. 13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. 14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent. 15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:

1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy. 2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. 4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him? 5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months. 6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven. 7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations. 8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world. 9 If any man have an ear, let him hear. 10 He that leadeth into captivity shall go into captivity: he that killeth with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints. 11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon. 12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed. 13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, 14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. 15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. 16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: 17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name. 18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Okay - all of the words 'all' are "noted" - which one(s) are you referring to?

 

[GaryA]

QUOTE

"Look, I get why pre-trib is comforting...."

Thank Jesus
He taught it 4 separate times.
Not 1
Not 2
4 times

But you can miss the rapture if that is your desire.

This is the epitome of ridiculousness...

Do you really actually believe that any born-again Christian will/would be "left behind" by Jesus at a [supposed] 'pre-trib' rapture simply because they did not believe the 'pre-trib' rapture view?

If you really actually believe that -

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

And - I can wait...

You and I both brother, I have "waited" for a kind and humble discussion for
5 years / Updated/Corrected last year?:

God's Great GRACE ( Pre-trib ) Departure!

Amen...