Calvinism is Gospel !

[Magenta]

Belief is the direct result of the power of God being exercised.

Isaiah 55 v 10-11 Just as rain and snow fall from heaven and do not return without watering the earth, making it bud and sprout, and providing seed to sow and food to eat, so My word that proceeds from My mouth will not return to Me empty, but it will accomplish what I please, and it will prosper where I send it.

 

[Magenta]

I have told you this before Magenta, and given you verses, i guess you ignored them. The Bible does not have to use the exact phrase "free will" to teach that we have a choice. It shows that truth throughout Scripture by God's commands, invitations, warnings, and judgments. If people had no real choice, these would have no meaning.

Jesus said:

If any man willeth to do his will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God, or whether I speak from myself.(John 7:17)

Jesus speaks of a person's willingness. He calls each person to choose whether they will do God's will.

He also said:

Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (Matthew 11:28)

An invitation can be accepted or refused.

Jesus also said of Jerusalem:

...how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Matthew 23:37)

Jesus was willing. They were not. That is a choice.

God said through Moses:

I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live.(Deuteronomy 30:19)

Joshua told the people:

Choose you this day whom ye will serve. (Joshua 24:15)

God also said:

Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions... Why will ye die...? (Ezekiel 18:30-32)

God calls people to repent because they can either respond or refuse.

From the beginning, Adam was given a command:

...of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it. (Genesis 2:17)

A command only has meaning if obedience and disobedience are both possible. Do you get that?

Throughout the Bible, God calls people to hear, believe, repent, obey, choose, and follow Him. He rewards those who obey and judges those who refuse. If human beings had no real choice, these commands and judgments would make no sense.

The burden of proof is not on those who believe Scripture teaches human choice. The burden is on anyone claiming that God commands people to do what they are completely incapable of choosing to do.

None of those articulate the free will of the natural man who is opposed to God, hostile. Hates Him.

But you mocked and scoffed that Biblical truth when presented with it before.

Free will as people speak of it is simply not found in the Bible. What is taught of the natural man is rejected by so many here who wish to cling to their belief that man is not the creature he became in Adam, who spread sin to the entire human race and death to all humanity. A multitude of verses have been repeatedly given and exposited to show the truth of the natural man, and ignored regularly by those whose man-made traditions mean more to them than the actual Word of God. Total depravity does not mean that all humankind is as evil as it possibly could be; rather, it means that sin affects the whole person and is an accurate description of the spiritual state of fallen man before a just and holy God. The human will is corrupted and in bondage to sin, which some call free, whereas Scripture teaches that it is in Christ that we are set free. There are none righteous aside from Christ, but some will tell you they did not need His help at all. Some will say that for God to move unilaterally in order to enable a person to respond positively to God, that He has kidnapped you against your will, making Him an unjust tyrant and His offer of repentance fraudulent. Or if they do not say it, they agree with those who say such things! These assertions have been explicitly put forth, but when I have mentioned them, I was told I am mischaracterizing what was said. In other words, lies are told with impunity, and lack of integrity abounds to the point we are basically told it is Christians who are said in Scripture to be without the Holy Spirit of God! Suck lack of logic and twisting of what is put forth in our holy book is unconscionable but becoming commonplace if it was not already. We have even been told that a person of their own free will can choose to believe in God and then they, by means of making that choice, retroactively become one of God's elect. They elect themselves, in other words. It seems some believe they can circumcise their own hearts and ears and unblind themselves. Of the natural man:

the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners
all our righteous acts are like filthy rags
there are NONE righteous
a bad tree cannot produce good fruit
all are under the control of the evil one
we need to be rescued
man’s heart is deceitful and desperately wicked
man is born dead in transgression and sin
he is held captive by a love for sin
will not seek God
he loves the darkness
does not understand the things of God
suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness
continues to willfully live in sin
sinful lifestyle seems right to men
rejects the gospel of Christ as foolishness
hostile toward God in their mind
does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so

I thank God for circumcising my heart, and opening my ears and eyes.

 

[2Christ]

Belief is the direct result of the power of God being exercised.

belief if a choice once God calls a person, otherwise Jesus would nor have said;

Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say

 

[WayneNSO]

When Adam and Eve ate of the tree they died spiritually that day and it came from choice. But they did not die physically for 100s of years later.

Spiritual death could also be called moral death, it is to do with responsibility, morals and ethics.

There was no choice in the physical realm. Adam by his sin brought physical death to the human race. We all die physically whether we are saved or not.

All the judgements by God on Adam and Eve are physical curses, no free will curses, and no references to Adams children.

Thanks to Augustine without which reform and Calvinist wouldnt exist today, moral choices and the physical were lumped together. Now it was said that we inherit both choice death and physical death, we inherit moral sin at birth. This is root of all errors in theology.

 

[Magenta]

Here the discussion revolves around what Scripture says of the natural man being a slave to sin and lover of darkness refusing to come into the light as a God-hater taken captive to do the will of the devil, opposed to the spiritual things of God, which he can neither receive nor comprehend, but yet we have many here contradicting and denying what Scripture says of the natural man. They claim the man of flesh, flesh within which nothing good exists, which serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death, will decide with his incurably wicked heart to believe what he hears as foolishness. They are not above rewriting verses to make them say what they want even if it is Jesus' words they are butchering. In short, they have put a philosophical construct before the Truth explicitly articulated in Scripture. They ascribe to the natural man qualities, characteristics, and abilities that are true only of the spiritual man, and then to prop up this error, pretend the natural man is a carnal Christian and not the man who is not indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God.

Part of the problem is that people think that making choices equates to the will being free. They say such things as, if the will is not free, then people are puppets. This is a logical fallacy. Making mundane choices does not in any way address what the Bible teaches about man's will being enslaved to sin, blinded to the truth, unable to hear, incapable of submitting to God, a lover of darkness, refusing to come into the light, hearing the gospel as foolishness, unable to receive or comprehend the spiritual things of God, to which he is opposed and to Whom he is hostile toward while under the power and influence of the devil, as is the whole world, out of which believers have been called. Thinking your will is free simply because you can choose what colour of socks to wear or what to have for lunch, or whether to do the right or wrong things, or what book to choose out of the mountains of them available, has no bearing on the eternal fate of your soul, and mixing those things in with what the Bible teaches about the estate of fallen man is a distraction from the real issue.

This is the crux of the conversation, such as it is, for it is out of man's nature that he makes choices, and it is with the heart that one believes... the free will proponents essentially assert that the incurably wicked heart of the natural/unregenerated man is free to choose to believe that which he is not only opposed to, but that which he can neither receive/accept nor comprehend while in the flesh as are all before becoming indwelt with the Holy Spirit of God. They have the man with zero wisdom acting wise to do God's will when Scripture says that man cannot, that flesh cannot please God, that flesh serves the law of sin and brings forth fruit unto death, not life, and is unable to submit to or obey God. And their idea of wisdom is that person choosing to believe what they hear as foolishness. They reject what Jesus said about it being impossible for a bad tree to bring forth good fruit... there are none good, no, not one! Even when asked who can be saved, Jesus said that with man it was impossible, and there are other places where we are explicitly told it is not by the will of the flesh or man but by God's will that any are saved. Some philosophers and philosophy books have said man has a will that is free and that is enough for many to parrot what they hear and throw over a slew of Scriptural truths. They ascribe to the natural man qualities, characteristics, and abilities possessed only by the spiritual man. It becomes obvious they make no distinction between the two and worse, some have no idea that there even is a distinction.

 

[Cameron143]

Not shown by scripture...unless you mean the power of His words and the Gospel... completely separated from any system of unconditional election.

Of course this is what scripture teaches. You just deny it.

 

[Magenta]

It is out of man's nature that he makes choices, and with the heart that one believes... the free will proponents essentially assert that the incurably wicked heart of the natural/unregenerated man is free to choose to believe that which he is not only opposed to, but that which he can neither receive/accept nor comprehend. They have the man with zero wisdom acting wise to do God's will when Scripture says that man cannot. And their idea of wisdom is that person choosing to believe what they hear as foolishness. They reject what Jesus said about it being impossible for a bad tree to bring forth good fruit, and there are none good, no, not one! But they reject a whole slew of Scriptures from beginning to end of the Bible, such as nothing good lives in man's flesh, and flesh serves the law of sin, and brings forth fruit unto death, all in favour of a doctrine that has zero support in the Bible, with not one verse articulating what they prefer over what is actually said. In fact they routinely contradict and deny what is explicitly stated, and really seem unable to stop ascribing to the unregenerated man qualities, characteristics, and abilities that only the regenerated person is in possession of. Some of these people are so liberated in their thinking against Biblical truth that they routinely blaspheme God and freely and repeatedly slander those they disagree with.

 

[Cameron143]

belief if a choice once God calls a person, otherwise Jesus would nor have said;

Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say

Belief is the result of God exercising His power in/on/through an individual.

 

[Magenta]

belief if a choice once God calls a person, otherwise Jesus would nor have said;

Why do you call me Lord, Lord, and do not do what I say

How would you define God's calling? Are you aware of when God put a call on your life?
Some here deny being called out of the world, though they say they are Christian. Such
disparities strike me as odd and tell me they have little to no spiritual discernment.
Likewise some seem to have head knowledge devoid of direct experience, which they
mock and scoff, and try to shame those who have a personal relationship with God.

Like the one who says God would be unfair if He were to reveal Himself to one any differently
than to another. Such declarations make it look like they have not read the Bible at all!
Yet they consider themselves an excellent researcher and qualified to teach.

 

[Bible_Locket]

I know. Most people cannot tell the difference.

I asked someone a very simple question recently, the result of which
was like I had stepped on a land mine with all their petty insults.

A torrent which they defended as their right to expression and free
speech etc while wanting me to shut up... just like so many here.

Pray for them. They know not what they do.
They think they do,but they are mistaken.

 

[Magenta]

Pray for them. They know not what they do.
They think they do,but they are mistaken.

Thank you, and... I have been.

 

[ShaunGutfeld777]

I have told you this before Magenta, and given you verses, i guess you ignored them.

Ignoring scriptures that don't fit their eisegesis (preconceived ideas not taught by the Word of the Lord) is one of the things calvinists are good at. Few calvinist ever recover themselves from the snare the devil has them trapped in. Very sad.

belief if a choice once God calls a person

Is it God's fault that all those people went to hell, because He decided to not "call" them?

Thanks to Augustine without which reform and Calvinist wouldnt exist today, moral choices and the physical were lumped together. Now it was said that we inherit both choice death and physical death, we inherit moral sin at birth. This is root of all errors in theology.

Yep, the manichaean monk (Augustine) brought some of the teachings from his cult in with him when he claimed to have converted to Christianity at a time when the Roman government made play like christianity (catholics aren't real Christians) so he play along and became a "christian" so he could prosper in that society and not be oppressed and someone who is not a "christian"

If the devil has a hall of fame celebrating degenerates, Augustine would be one of the most celebrated in the kingdom of darkness as he has done so much to spread lies and deceptions in a way to seem as though they are correct teachings from the Lord - never mind that his teachings are based on scripture twisting

 

[ShaunGutfeld777]

Pray for them. They know not what they do.
They think they do,but they are mistaken.

Well, when the future gets here we'll see what becomes of those who teach a different "gospel" and another "jesus"

That whole TULIP thingy is gonna bite them on the back side and they gonna be sorry, like for all eternity.

 

[Magenta]

Is it God's fault that all those people went to hell, because He decided to not "call" them?

Those given by God to Jesus come to Him.

Do you assert that everyone hears?

Jesus said otherwise.

 

[Bible_Locket]

I have told you this before Magenta, and given you verses, i guess you ignored them. The Bible does not have to use the exact phrase "free will" to teach that we have a choice. It shows that truth throughout Scripture by God's commands, invitations, warnings, and judgments. If people had no real choice, these would have no meaning.

Jesus said:

If any man willeth to do his will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God, or whether I speak from myself.(John 7:17)

Jesus speaks of a person's willingness. He calls each person to choose whether they will do God's will.

He also said:

Come unto me, all ye that labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest. (Matthew 11:28)

An invitation can be accepted or refused.

Jesus also said of Jerusalem:

...how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (Matthew 23:37)

Jesus was willing. They were not. That is a choice.

God said through Moses:

I have set before thee life and death, the blessing and the curse: therefore choose life, that thou mayest live.(Deuteronomy 30:19)

Joshua told the people:

Choose you this day whom ye will serve. (Joshua 24:15)

God also said:

Repent, and turn yourselves from all your transgressions... Why will ye die...? (Ezekiel 18:30-32)

God calls people to repent because they can either respond or refuse.

From the beginning, Adam was given a command:

...of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it. (Genesis 2:17)

A command only has meaning if obedience and disobedience are both possible. Do you get that?

Throughout the Bible, God calls people to hear, believe, repent, obey, choose, and follow Him. He rewards those who obey and judges those who refuse. If human beings had no real choice, these commands and judgments would make no sense.

The burden of proof is not on those who believe Scripture teaches human choice.

The burden is on anyone claiming that God commands people to do what they are completely incapable of choosing to do.

Therein is your confusion.

God has told us, people of the natural mind, fallen human nature, cannot understand the things of God. Because they are spiritually discerned.

Unless the Breath of God,Holy Spirit, acts within a person and opens their consciousness,they can never heed the call of God.

Those verses you post as evidence of mans free will to but choose to heed God, are not so.

Those verses example how God begins to call those who he elects to His grace.

Belief isn't a choice. God said,the natural medicine and cannot choose to believe,I.e. understand the things of God.

God in His grace,as he tells us,bestows faith and irrevocable Salvation.

 

[Churchgoer]

From creation point of view, there is no coincidence. God speak, everything come into being. If there is any chance of random coincidence effect, the universe possible will be a disaster.
God not only create us, He sustain us every day, including right now.

"Be still and know that I am God."

 

[Magenta]

The burden is on anyone claiming that God commands people to do what they are completely incapable of choosing to do.

Romans 11 v 32 God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy on all.

 

[2Christ]

None of those articulate the free will of the natural man who is opposed to God, hostile. Hates Him

But you mocked and scoffed that Biblical truth when presented with it before.

you find excuses Magenta

That reply is trying to change the subject.

The claim was: there is no verse showing human choice.
That is already answered by the clear words of Scripture where God commands, invites, warns, and even grieves over rejection. Those actions only make sense if real response is possible.

But now a second claim is added: that people are so opposed to God that they cannot choose at all. The Bible does not speak that way.

Yes, Scripture says the human heart is often corrupt and resistant. But it also shows that God still speaks to that very same person and expects a response. Both truths appear together: man can resist, and man is still responsible.

Jesus said:

If any man willeth to do His will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God. (John 7:17)

Jesus does not say “no one can will.” He says a person can choose to seek God’s will or reject it.

He also said:

Ye will not come to me, that ye may have life. (John 5:40)

He does not say “you cannot.” He says “you will not.” That is resistance, not incapacity.

And again:

How often would I have gathered thy children together… and ye would not! (Matthew 23:37)

The blame is placed on refusal, not inability.

The Old Testament says the same:

Choose you this day whom ye will serve. (Joshua 24:15)

Why will ye die, O house of Israel? (Ezekiel 18:31)

God does not speak to people as machines. He speaks to them as accountable hearers who can respond.

So the real issue is not whether man is sometimes hostile to God. Scripture already agrees he is. The issue is the conclusion being drawn from that hostility. Hostility does not erase responsibility. Refusal is still refusal. A command is still meaningful. A call to repent is still genuine.

The argument collapses here: if a person being “opposed to God” meant they had no ability to respond, then every command of God becomes meaningless. Yet God continues to command, call, and hold people accountable throughout Scripture.

That is not contradiction in the Bible. It is consistency: people can resist God, and still be called to turn back.
you warned someone a few post back that many accuse others, well well you just did that, how surprising, you do it all the time!

 

[2Christ]

Belief is the result of God exercising His power in/on/through an individual.

are you saying God forces a choice on people

 

[Magenta]

That reply is trying to change the subject.

Nope. You gave ZERO verses articulating free will of the man of flesh (the natural man).

That is the subject despite your attempt to obfuscate.

The natural man does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God. For they are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually discerned. 1 Corinthians ch 2 v 14