Making provision for it and wanting man to sin are two different things.
But the point I was making which you questioned was that Calvinists say sin was Gods plan - as in he orchestrated it - which I disagree with.
Calvinism is Gospel !
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But the point I was making which you questioned was that Calvinists say sin was Gods plan - as in he orchestrated it - which I disagree with.
It seems we agree on the matter then, except that I don't agree that Calvinists say that God orchestrated the entrance of sin into the world.
God is sovereign. That mean this, in a nut shell.:
" I am the boss, I own everything, all the toys are mine, and I get to do what I want, how I want, with whom, I want, when I want".
So one day the Lord chastises me. I am sitting alone at my kitchen table. He speaks and I hear Him. (I don't mean I imagine I hear Him, I mean I hear Him speak words to me, and ask me questions)
He says "Rod why do you believe, what you believe, and who taught you" (This is a VERY IMPORTANT question, it implies something too, that is VERY important)...
In case you don't see it. It is an accusation, against me, for believing something about Him that wasn't true...
You see I wasn't trusting Him, at that point in my life I trusted only myself"
Also His question was a declaration that He was to be my teacher...
He continues... "You are like a piece of fruit in a bowl" ( he means the fruit are Christians), "with many other pieces of fruit...
BUT YOU are the WORST piece of fruit in the bowl".
"It is NOT your job to change yourself, that is MY job, I am the shepherd, you are the sheep. I am the farmer, you are the land. when I want to change something in your life I will bring it to your attention, all you have to do is agree with me, in whatever I reveal about you, to you.
Then He says something that almost frightens me. He says "Do you have a problem with me "USING" SIN to accomplish my will".
Then He explains saying "Do you remember David" (somehow in a way I can't explain to you, I was able to track with Him, without Him explaining every little detail). I could have said which story about David, there are many of them...So I said yes I remember.
He said and "you remember what I told him". I said yes, you told him he could NOT build you a temple, but that he would have a son that would build it.
Then He says to me, the most profound thing: He says "Now watch me fulfill my own prophetic words, watch me fulfill it". Its then almost as if I see a small projector, watching this play out.
You know the story too. David is just at the right place and the precise right moment, same for Bathsheba, and from that sin, that union, eventually comes a son, who built God's temple.
NO one could have arranged that event, nor any other event in the bible.
SO God is sovereign, whether we can explain it in super duper logical chrsitianese is regardless of the facts
" I am the boss, I own everything, all the toys are mine, and I get to do what I want, how I want, with whom, I want, when I want".
So one day the Lord chastises me. I am sitting alone at my kitchen table. He speaks and I hear Him. (I don't mean I imagine I hear Him, I mean I hear Him speak words to me, and ask me questions)
He says "Rod why do you believe, what you believe, and who taught you" (This is a VERY IMPORTANT question, it implies something too, that is VERY important)...
In case you don't see it. It is an accusation, against me, for believing something about Him that wasn't true...
You see I wasn't trusting Him, at that point in my life I trusted only myself"
Also His question was a declaration that He was to be my teacher...
He continues... "You are like a piece of fruit in a bowl" ( he means the fruit are Christians), "with many other pieces of fruit...
BUT YOU are the WORST piece of fruit in the bowl".
"It is NOT your job to change yourself, that is MY job, I am the shepherd, you are the sheep. I am the farmer, you are the land. when I want to change something in your life I will bring it to your attention, all you have to do is agree with me, in whatever I reveal about you, to you.
Then He says something that almost frightens me. He says "Do you have a problem with me "USING" SIN to accomplish my will".
Then He explains saying "Do you remember David" (somehow in a way I can't explain to you, I was able to track with Him, without Him explaining every little detail). I could have said which story about David, there are many of them...So I said yes I remember.
He said and "you remember what I told him". I said yes, you told him he could NOT build you a temple, but that he would have a son that would build it.
Then He says to me, the most profound thing: He says "Now watch me fulfill my own prophetic words, watch me fulfill it". Its then almost as if I see a small projector, watching this play out.
You know the story too. David is just at the right place and the precise right moment, same for Bathsheba, and from that sin, that union, eventually comes a son, who built God's temple.
NO one could have arranged that event, nor any other event in the bible.
SO God is sovereign, whether we can explain it in super duper logical chrsitianese is regardless of the facts
If your first and second sentences are true (and I agree that they are), then how at the same time could the above statement also be true since it would contradict them?
This has been claimed many many times, yet this assertion is completely ignorant of Church history. There are many mentions in the early writings that seem to point towards Reformed theology. I said seem because the truth is that the early Church was not busy systematizing theology on free will and God's sovereignity, they had other issues to contend with. For you to claim Augustine brought in some pagan philosophy shows that you are either repeating what you have heard from someone or that you haven't done enough research.
Justin Martyr was a Platonist before converting to Christianity, and he kept using Platonic categories, vocabulary, and concepts to explain Christian doctrine. He quotes and paraphrases Plato directly, and scholars note his “sympathies are above all with Platonism.”
Few quotes:
First Apology 20.4 & 59
Hortatory Address to the Greeks / Cohortatio ad Graecos 37
Some of these are SHOCKING quotes. So please, stop playing this game.
Yes, God can do what He wants, and what He wants is for everyone to agree with Him and be saved (1Tim. 2:3-4).
Yes, God can use sin to accomplish His will, which is the point of what was just posted regarding John 13:1-30 in the Systematic Bible Study thread.
Thanks, but if you want to discuss what God has done to save His People, Im happy to discuss
At risk of being warned by moderators I will repost what I said earlier:
"Commands are just that, commands. Those verses speak nothing about the sinful man's ability to obey. You have to go to other passages to study that subject. Turns out when you do that, you end up with man being dead and unable to believe unless God first does a work in the heart."
I was just teaching through the book of Jonah recently and how Jonah tried to avoid his calling had a purpose. The New Testament speaks about the sign of Jonah, being in the belly for 3 days, just like our Lord. Everything happens for a purpose, what a wonderful truth.
By the way, this "forced" argument is the same you hear from atheists who claim God rap3d Mary without consent.
Do you get how wrong you are? Obviously not...
Romans 11 v 32 God has consigned everyone to disobedience so that He may have mercy on all.
There are people here who call themselves "Christian" who say such vile things about God.
Mary was not asked (she was informed), but Scripture Truth offends them.
They also claim things like, God does not act unilaterally in matters of salvation.
It is all part and parcel of the idolization of their will.
Which work God does in the heart of every dead sinner, (1Tim. 2:3-4) thereby enabling souls to repent (Matt. 4:17),
seek (Matt. 7:7) and be saved (John 3:16)--or not (Matt. 13:14-15, 23:37).
If that was the case everyone would be saved? Part of getting the new heart is walking in obedience:
Ezekiel 36:25-27
Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.
Nowhere does scripture state God must do an individual, unique, particular work in the heart first before a person can believe.
Ezekiel 36 verses 25-26 I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you will be clean. I will cleanse you from all your impurities and all your idols. I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will remove your heart of stone and give you a heart of flesh.
Ezekiel 36 v 27 I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.
When God commands in the Salvivic sense, its to the regenerated elect who has already been given a willing heart by regeneration. When Jesus issued the command here Matt 11:28-29
28 Come unto me[imperative], all ye that labour and are heavy laden[perfect passive], and I will give you rest.
29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
The ppp means they have been made burdened in the past with results to the present.
So Jesus is commanding a people that has been spiritually prepared to be willing to come to Him.
He absolutely was influenced by his Manchaeism roots and to deny this, is to deny the abundance of research on the subject, do you have that authority?
Doubtful.
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