Calvinism is Gospel !

[Cameron143]

Only the few God chose to love/elect could be saved at any time,
Which is why Jesus Jesus aped the hatred his Father had for those chosen for hell per tulip.

I thought you believed that God casting an individual into the lake of fire was a manifestation of love. You don't believe that anymore?

What did Jesus see the Father doing that caused Him to stop and act?

 

[HeIsHere]

Gotta shift the goal posts. Whenever caught in an inconsistensy press the panic button and cry misrepresentation or that people "don't understand calvinism"

Yes, that is it exactly, soon as they are confronted with an inconsistency they go on to something else.
It is the same tactic with people used to go door to door in the past.
This has to be training.

 

[HeIsHere]

You keep mentioning "Calvinism, Reformed Theology, TULIP etc. but you have never once identified a single fault or anything unbiblical about them.

I'm not concerned about John Calvin or Jacob Arminius, I'm more interested in God and what He has to say. I have never mentioned those men or any denominational views, I simply quote Gods Word and you interpret that as "Calvinism" or Reformed Theology".

If Reformed Theology is supported by Gods Word, then so be it. I follow the Lord Jesus, not John Calvin or Jacob Arminius. You can put any label on me, as long as there are no biblical faults in my theology. You haven't been able to find a single biblical fault in my theology. I'm not really interested in your private opinions, I'm only interested in the truth.

If you find any errors or unbiblical doctrines in my theology, then please point them out and show me where the bible supports your view.

You plucked 2 Peter 3:9 way out of context, it was not referring to "every single person on the planet". I don't have time to give you a thorough exegesis on the passage now, but sufficed to say it was directed at the elect of God, meaning current believers, "those who are already saved" and those who are yet to be added to the Body of Christ.
In context, some were asking why the Lord doesn't just return and make all things right. The short answer is, the Lord is patient, "not willing that any of His elect should perish". So when the last one of His elect is added to the Church, then it will be time for judgement day and the end of the world.

Christ was predestined.

He was The Plan.

 

[DeanM]

There is not one clear scripture when examined in context of the surrounding text, the original language and the full counsel of God which clearly states a person is regenerated or gifted initial faith prior to salvation.

They think they are special even before conception. They cant grasp that they are just another creature like the rest of us. Special snowflakes.

 

[brightfame52]

Nowhere does scripture teach that God removed the ability of fallen man (from birth) to believe and respond positively to the Truth and Power of His Good News.

You claim that nowhere does Scripture teach that fallen man lacks the ability from birth to believe and respond positively to the Gospel. In reality, Scripture explicitly and repeatedly declares that natural man is spiritually dead, blind, and fundamentally incapable of doing exactly what you claim he can do.

Look at what the Word of God actually says about the spiritual ability of fallen man:

1. The Carried-Over Corruption from Birth

You state this inability from birth is unscriptural. Look at David's confession of inherited total depravity: [1, 2]

• Psalm 51:5: "Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me."
• Ephesians 2:3: Paul states that before we are quickened, we are "by nature the children of wrath, even as others." If you are a child of wrath by nature from birth, your nature is entirely opposed to God.

2. The Verdict of Total Inability

You claim man can "respond positively to the Truth." Scripture flatly denies this, stating that the natural mind physically cannot receive or obey the things of God:

• 1 Corinthians 2:14: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned." Paul does not say the natural man chooses not to know them; he says he cannot know them. He lacks the spiritual eyesight.
• Romans 8:7: "Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be." If the natural mind cannot indeed be subject to God, it is an absolute impossibility for that mind to "respond positively" to God's truth without a prior supernatural change.
• John 6:44: Jesus explicitly strips man of this independent ability: "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him..."

3. The Condition of Spiritual Death

You are treating the unregenerate sinner as if he is merely sick or weak. Scripture treats him as a corpse.

• Ephesians 2:1: "And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;"

A physically dead corpse does not have the "ability" to respond positively to medical advice. It must be given life first. As John Gill masterfully notes, faith is not a latent spark sitting inside the fallen human heart waiting to be fanned into flame; faith is a supernatural fruit of the Holy Spirit (Gal. 5:22) that only exists after God sovereignly gives a new heart.

God did not have to "remove" your ability to believe at birth; Adam lost that spiritual uprightness for us in the Fall. Ever since, man chooses exactly what his corrupt nature desires—and his nature desires to flee from God, hate the light, and reject the Truth (John 3:19). To say man has the inherent power to spiritually turn himself around is to say a clean thing can bring itself out of an unclean thing, which Scripture says is impossible (Job 14:4).

---

 

[DeanM]

Picking cherries. Context is everything.

 

[JimiSurvivor]

1. The Effectual Call vs. The External Call (Rom. 10:13-15)

The argument that the external preaching of the gospel is the only call confuses the outward invitation with the inward work of the Holy Spirit. Scripture distinguishes between the external call (the preacher’s voice) and the internal, effectual call of the Spirit.

Paul said nothing in this passage about two KINDS of CALLS - one of which is merely EXTERNAL (and cannot bring about inward spiritual change) and a second kind which is INTERNAL and CAN bring about spiritual change). These ideas are not mentioned in the text. Instead, you have imported these ideas INTO the text from a pre-existing belief system which comes out of Augustinian-Calvinism.

This is not the way a skillful workman rightly interprets the word of truth. INTERPRETING the scripture is about discovering what the text is saying through an understanding the word meanings in their historical-grammatical context. Adding your own words and ideas INTO the text you pollutes the meaning and renders you unable to see what the passage means. This is the grave error of EISEGETING or READING INTO the scriptures.

Reading the context of the passage we see that what Paul is saying that Jews and Gentiles are both saved the same way - by believing the gospel of salvation and (personally) calling upon the Lord. Notice how, the individual person must actively RESPOND to God's offer of salvation by "calling on the name of the Lord." The person is not told to wait until God does it by unilaterally and involuntarily saving him. That is not the gospel
.

Romans 10:17 states that faith comes by hearing the word of God, but this requires spiritual ears that only God can grant. If the external preaching alone were enough to produce faith, everyone who heard it would believe. The reason some believe and others do not is not due to human free will, but because the Holy Spirit sovereignly and effectually works in the hearts of the elect, giving them the faith required to call upon the name of the Lord. The external call is a dead letter without the internal power of the Spirit.

In order to be saved from our sin we must first know that we are sinners who are in desperate need of saving. This is far more than an intellectual idea. We must grasp this by experientially though the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said:
8 And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
9 in regard to SIN, because they do not believe in Me;…
(John 16:8-9)

Convict comes from the Greek verb elegchó (ἐλέγχω) which means: To reprove, to expose, to refute, to correct generally with a suggestion of the shame of the person convicted. It is rather like being charged with a crime.
Strong’s Greek 1651 describes a Spirit-energized act of bringing wrong into the open so that it can be acknowledged and forsaken. Whether translated “convict,” “expose,” “reprove,” or “rebuke,” the term always carries the aim of restoring people to God’s design rather than merely shaming them. It is truth spoken with moral authority, intended to move the conscience toward repentance and obedient faith.

I see a lot of this in the life of Martin Luther who, as a monk, struggled with habitual sins he could not overcome. There is no doubt Luther knew he was a sinner and that the Holy Spirit used the Law to prosecute him and to declare him guilty. This is absolutely necessary since, after all, Jesus said, …31 “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” (Luke 5:31-32)

When my father first got cancer he had no symptoms. He ate a healthy diet ran many miles every day. Thus when his doctor said "You have cancer" he objected, explaining to him all about his healthy diet and lifestyle.
His doctor simply repeated the diagnosis: "It does not matter. You have cancer."
My father objected saying "I don't have any pain" to which his doctor responded "You will"
The pain eventually came when my father was running. He collapsed where he was and had to crawl home.
Until that point he had not sought the radical treatment that could restore him. The cure, which involved chemotherapy, radiation and surgery was very unpleasant. No one would ever submit to it unless they knew there absolutely no other way. In the same way, Jesus offers us a salvation which is already paid for; nevertheless, it is a radical even painful procedure since it involves relinquishing our right to rule ourselves - the complete demolition of our inner kingdom of self.

Jesus said it this way: 24.....“If anyone wants to come after Me, [following after Him as one of His flock] he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow Me [letting Him lead us as we emulate Him] . 25 For whoever wants to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life [i.e., his soul] for My sake will find it. 26What will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his soul? Or what can a man give in exchange for his soul?…(Matthew 16:24-26)

 

[brightfame52]

Paul said nothing in this passage about two KINDS of CALLS - one of which is merely EXTERNAL (and cannot bring about inward spiritual change) and a second kind which is INTERNAL and CAN bring about spiritual change). These ideas are not mentioned in the text. Instead, you have imported these ideas INTO the text from a pre-existing belief system which comes out of Augustinian-Calvinism.

This is not the way a skillful workman rightly interprets the word of truth. INTERPRETING the scripture is about discovering what the text is saying through an understanding the word meanings in their historical-grammatical context. Adding your own words and ideas INTO the text you pollutes the meaning and renders you unable to see what the passage means. This is the grave error of EISEGETING or READING INTO the scriptures.

Reading the context of the passage we see that what Paul is saying that Jews and Gentiles are both saved the same way - by believing the gospel of salvation and (personally) calling upon the Lord. Notice how, the individual person must actively RESPOND to God's offer of salvation by "calling on the name of the Lord." The person is not told to wait until God does it by unilaterally and involuntarily saving him. That is not the gospel
.

In order to be saved from our sin we must first know that we are sinners who are in desperate need of saving. This is far more than an intellectual idea. We must grasp this by experientially though the conviction of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said:
8 And when He comes, He will convict the world in regard to sin and righteousness and judgment:
9 in regard to SIN, because they do not believe in Me;…
(John 16:8-9)

Convict comes from the Greek verb elegchó (ἐλέγχω) which means: To reprove, to expose, to refute, to correct generally with a suggestion of the shame of the person convicted. It is rather like being charged with a crime.
Strong’s Greek 1651 describes a Spirit-energized act of bringing wrong into the open so that it can be acknowledged and forsaken. Whether translated “convict,” “expose,” “reprove,” or “rebuke,” the term always carries the aim of restoring people to God’s design rather than merely shaming them. It is truth spoken with moral authority, intended to move the conscience toward repentance and obedient faith.

I see a lot of this in the life of Martin Luther who, as a monk, struggled with habitual sins he could not overcome. There is no doubt Luther knew he was a sinner and that the Holy Spirit used the Law to prosecute him and to declare him guilty. This is absolutely necessary since, after all, Jesus said, …31 “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.” (Luke 5:31-32)

When my father first got cancer he had no symptoms. He ate a healthy diet ran many miles every day. Thus when his doctor said "You have cancer" he objected, explaining to him all about his healthy diet and lifestyle.
His doctor simply repeated the diagnosis: "It does not matter. You have cancer."
My father objected saying "I don't have any pain" to which his doctor responded "You will"
The pain eventually came when my father was running. He collapsed where he was and had to crawl home.
Until that point he had not sought the radical treatment that could restore him. The cure, which involved chemotherapy, radiation and surgery was very unpleasant. No one would ever submit to it unless they knew there absolutely no other way. In the same way, Jesus offers us a salvation which is already paid for; nevertheless, it is a radical even painful procedure since it involves relinquishing our right to rule ourselves - the complete demolition of our inner kingdom of self.

---

You accuse me of eisegesis, but your own reading completely ignores the stark textual contrast Paul sets up in the very book you are quoting. You claim Paul knows nothing of "two calls"—one outward and human, and one inward and divine. Let’s look at the literal, historical-grammatical context of Romans to see who is actually reading into the text.

1. The Explicit Textual Proof of Two Calls

You claim the distinction between an external invitation and an internal, sovereign call is an imported Calvinist philosophy. Look at how Paul explicitly defines "the called" earlier in this exact letter:

• Romans 8:28-30: "...to them who are the called according to his purpose... Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified

Paul constructs an unbreakable chain here. Every single person who receives this specific call is also justified and glorified.
Now compare that to the reality of the gospel being preached in the world: Does every single human being who hears a preacher get justified and glorified? No. Millions hear the outward voice of the preacher and reject it.

Therefore, a text-critical workman has only two choices: either Paul is wrong and the chain in Romans 8 breaks, or the call that guarantees justification (the internal, effectual call) is entirely distinct from the outward sound of human preaching (the external call). This isn't eisegesis; it is basic systematic consistency.

2. Romans 10 Shatters Universal Free Will

You claim Romans 10 proves that man must independently "respond to God's offer" by calling on Him. But you completely stopped reading before the end of the chapter. Look at how Paul explains why Israel heard the outward message but did not believe:

• Romans 10:16: "But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?"
• Romans 10:21: "But to Israel he saith, All day long I have stretched forth my hands unto a disobedient and gainsaying people."

The external message went out. The "report" was heard. God outwardly stretched forth His hands through the prophets and preachers all day long. Yet, the people remained disobedient. Why? Because the outward report is a dead letter unless God reveals His arm internally!

As Paul explains in the very next chapter (Romans 11:7): "Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded."

3. Your Illogical Order of Salvation

You argue that a dead sinner must first "actively respond" and call upon the Lord to be saved. Look at the strict grammatical sequence Paul lays out in Romans 10:14:

"How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard?"

You cannot call unless you believe. You cannot believe unless you have spiritually heard. And as we established from your own quote of John 16:8-9 and Luke 5:31-32, a spiritually dead, cancer-ridden sinner cannot hear or value the Doctor until the Holy Spirit sovereignly convicts and quickens them.

You claim that telling a person to "wait until God does it" is not the gospel. High Calvinism doesn't tell men to wait; we preach the Gospel boldly to every creature! But we know that our preaching is empty breath until the Holy Spirit unilaterally breaks the heart of stone and gives a heart of flesh (Ezek. 36:26).

The external call belongs to the preacher, but the effectual quickening belongs entirely to the Holy Spirit. To deny this distinction is to turn the Gospel into a conditional work of human cooperation.

---

 

[John146]

Genesis 6:6 uses an anthropomorphism—a literary device where God accommodates His infinite, unchanging nature to our finite human capacity to emphasize the gravity and pain of human sin.

Come up with an "ism" to explain away the clear writing and meaning of scripture just to fit your theology is not good bible study. It is clear throughout scripture that God does indeed change his mind based upon man's response to his word. It doesn't make him any less, but it makes him a reachable and touchable God with our prayers and responses to his word. It's called grace. See Jonah for a great example.

 

[awelight]

Pro. 14:12 says that there is a way that seems right to a man, but the end thereof are the ways of death. It is better to introspect and check who is on the right side and who could be wrong. Never come to conclusion based on your beliefs. We need to know the Truth. Beliefs can send us to hell, but only the Truth will set us free.

"Total Depravity" is a heretical concept. If man was totally depraved, he would been a zombie, but no. Jesus still came into this world and spoke to the people of Israel and made them understand God because Jesus considered them not depraved. Whoever rejected him such as the religious sect, Jesus held them accountable. If they were depraved, why should Jesus hold them accountable?


No one was able to understand, and no one sought after God is because 2 Cor. 4:4 says that Satan has blinded the minds of those who do not believe.

The above statement is utterly wrong. You do not know how grace operates. Grace is the favor of God who guides us as to which road we should take. Based on that guidance, I need to act. That is called free will.


This statement is again wrong. If you are working in a company, consider your manager as sovereign over you. You are doing whatever is instructed to you. How do you do that if you do not have a free will? So, when you exercise your free will to carry out his instructions, are you dethroning your manager? You also have a free will not to carry out his instructions. In such a case, you would receive a warning letter. Do you consider him still to be sovereign over you?


Yes, it is the will of God that we should be dethroned, otherwise grace cannot operate in us. Jam. 4:6 says that God gives grace to the humble. Now, that does not mean we do not have a free will. We can still violate the grace of God, but we dare not do it.

Most of your replies are nothing more than intellectual humanism. However, I will breakdown one paragraph:

You stated: "Total Depravity" is a heretical concept." Easy to say but much more difficult to prove. What makes your concept nonheretical? Give me the proof from the Bible. There are many verses of Scripture that tell us of mans spiritual inability. I already gave you one of them in Rom. 3:11 - no one understands. You conveniently blew right passed it. 2 Cor. 4:4 is not the answer to the problem. In this verse, Paul is making reference to the agency of Satan. Man from birth possesses a darkened mind and through the agency of Satan, as well as, false doctrine, human philosophy and willful ignorance - mans mind is made even darker.
On darkness of the mind, see:
John 1:5 And the light shined in the darkness; and the darkness did not apprehended it.
John 3:19 And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.
Mat 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Eph. 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk, in the uselessness of their mind,
Eph. 4:18 being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart;

Spiritual "regeneration" is the answer to the problem. (John 3:3-10)

You went on to state: "If man was totally depraved, he would (have) been a zombie," This makes no sense at all. What does "depravity" have to do with being a zombie. The word depravity speaks to ones nature, not to ones capacity to reason and act. Man is quite capable of thought. We see this everyday. Man runs governments, performs medical services, goes to the moon; etc. However, as to spiritual things, his mind is darkened, his heart is hardened because his nature fell into spiritual depravity and thus, communion with God was broken. When Adam transgressed, all of mankind fell in him.

Next, you stated: "Jesus still came into this world and spoke to the people of Israel and made them understand God because Jesus considered them not depraved". After reading the Gospels, how can you say that Jesus "made them understand God"? There are way to many verses, in the Gospel accounts alone, that say otherwise. The message of Jesus was being rejected again and again. Only those who had been regenerated by the Spirit understood. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God. The Greek word for "see", (harao), means: see, perceive or understand. Therefore, without regeneration by the Spirit, one cannot perceive or understand the things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

Last, you stated: "Whoever rejected him such as the religious sect, Jesus held them accountable. If they were depraved, why should Jesus hold them accountable?". It was not just the religionist He holds accountable, He will hold all who reject Him accountable. Depravity is not an excuse for rejecting Jesus Christ. We are all condemned because we were all in Adam when He transgressed. His curse is passed on to every human being because every human being originated from his loins. If you do not understand this basic truth, then all of your Theology is going to be in error.

 

[awelight]

Nowhere does scripture teach that God removed the ability of fallen man (from birth) to believe and respond positively to the Truth and Power of His Good News.

Really? You believe what you said is true?

Okay then, here are a couple of verses for you:
John 6:44 No one is able to come to me, except the Father which sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. The Greek word for: "is able", (dynatai), means: ability. It is an indicative verb, in the middle voice. It literally means: "able of themselves". Therefore, we could translate 6:44 in this manner: No one is able of themselves to come to me, except the Father which sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. Don't believe me? Check it out for yourself.

1Cor. 2:14 Now the natural man cannot receive the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him; and he cannot know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The natural state of our being is herein clearly taught. God did not remove our ability, we did that to ourselves - in Adam. God is the one restoring our ability, in the new birth.

 

[awelight]

Come up with an "ism" to explain away the clear writing and meaning of scripture just to fit your theology is not good bible study. It is clear throughout scripture that God does indeed change his mind based upon man's response to his word. It doesn't make him any less, but it makes him a reachable and touchable God with our prayers and responses to his word. It's called grace. See Jonah for a great example.

Wow... that is borderline heresy. Are you actually trying to subvert one of God's attributes? Do you not understand His eternal essence? That which "is" eternal cannot change.
Num. 23:19 God is not a man, that he should lie; Neither the son of man, that he should change his mind: Hath he said, and shall he not do it? Or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?
1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor change his mind; for he is not a man, that he should change his mind.
Mal. 3:6a For I the LORD cannot change

 

[awelight]

That is funny, I just wrote about shifting the goal posts as well hahaha. Didn't see this message until now, going in order.


Yup, heres a good example of it. God so loved the world of the elect, God is not willing any of His elect should perish, God wants every elect person to come into the knowledge of the truth.

Of course it has to mean that because you have to interpret the Bible thru the TULIP lens otherwise it all falls apart. If God wants every single person to be saved then we would have to conclude that the L in TULIP isnt true, nor is the I or U. Now we have to actually study the Bible for ourselves and harmonize God's desire for all to be saved and not all being saved. I know, could it be that some reject the free gift of salvation and resist the Holy Spirit?

Hey, that's kind of funny - it's a really silly response - but kind of funny. If a person truly knows what they are talking about, they don't have to move any goalpost.

How about a few "elect" verses:
Mar_13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
John 15:16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
Rom_8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.

Maybe you should do a thorough search through the Bible for key words like: Chose, Chosen, Choose, Elect and Election. Might be a real eye opener for you.

 

[maximc]

Most of your replies are nothing more than intellectual humanism. However, I will breakdown one paragraph:

You stated: "Total Depravity" is a heretical concept." Easy to say but much more difficult to prove. What makes your concept nonheretical? Give me the proof from the Bible. There are many verses of Scripture that tell us of mans spiritual inability. I already gave you one of them in Rom. 3:11 - no one understands. You conveniently blew right passed it. 2 Cor. 4:4 is not the answer to the problem. In this verse, Paul is making reference to the agency of Satan. Man from birth possesses a darkened mind and through the agency of Satan, as well as, false doctrine, human philosophy and willful ignorance - mans mind is made even darker.
On darkness of the mind, see:
John 1:5 And the light shined in the darkness; and the darkness did not apprehended it.
John 3:19 And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil.
Mat 13:13 Therefore I speak to them in parables; because seeing they see not, and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Eph. 4:17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye no longer walk as the Gentiles also walk, in the uselessness of their mind,
Eph. 4:18 being darkened in their understanding, alienated from the life of God because of the ignorance that is in them, because of the hardening of their heart;

Spiritual "regeneration" is the answer to the problem. (John 3:3-10)

You went on to state: "If man was totally depraved, he would (have) been a zombie," This makes no sense at all. What does "depravity" have to do with being a zombie. The word depravity speaks to ones nature, not to ones capacity to reason and act. Man is quite capable of thought. We see this everyday. Man runs governments, performs medical services, goes to the moon; etc. However, as to spiritual things, his mind is darkened, his heart is hardened because his nature fell into spiritual depravity and thus, communion with God was broken. When Adam transgressed, all of mankind fell in him.

Next, you stated: "Jesus still came into this world and spoke to the people of Israel and made them understand God because Jesus considered them not depraved". After reading the Gospels, how can you say that Jesus "made them understand God"? There are way to many verses, in the Gospel accounts alone, that say otherwise. The message of Jesus was being rejected again and again. Only those who had been regenerated by the Spirit understood. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God. The Greek word for "see", (harao), means: see, perceive or understand. Therefore, without regeneration by the Spirit, one cannot perceive or understand the things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

Last, you stated: "Whoever rejected him such as the religious sect, Jesus held them accountable. If they were depraved, why should Jesus hold them accountable?". It was not just the religionist He holds accountable, He will hold all who reject Him accountable. Depravity is not an excuse for rejecting Jesus Christ. We are all condemned because we were all in Adam when He transgressed. His curse is passed on to every human being because every human being originated from his loins. If you do not understand this basic truth, then all of your Theology is going to be in error.

If your definition of "Total Depravity" is man having a sin nature because of which he is unable to know God and continues in sin, then I agree with you, but I still would not use the term "depraved" because that would mean that a person is incapable of doing anything. As you acknowledged that man is able to do quite a lot without being saved. Nevertheless, let me use your terminology for the sake of argument.
How can a totally depraved person receive God and be saved? Rom. 10:13-15 gives us the answer. When a preacher preaches the gospel, faith is built up in the heart of the hearer thereby he calls upon the name of the Lord and gets saved. Rom. 10:17 confirms the fact that the person who hears the gospel receives faith. Now if you don't acknowledge this, you are not being honest because this is plain English. It is not Greek or Latin to say that we could not understand.

We are all condemned because we were all in Adam when He transgressed.

Your logic of God sending people to hell just because Adam committed sin for which cause they have to suffer the consequences is just not illogical, it is plain demonic. Here is a disclaimer: "Anyone who reads my last statement and judges me must first read the context on which I have responded. The context is that awelight says that we are not judged on the basis of we rejecting Christ but on the basis of what Adam did."

 

[Journey_man]

That is funny, I just wrote about shifting the goal posts as well hahaha. Didn't see this message until now, going in order.


Yup, heres a good example of it. God so loved the world of the elect, God is not willing any of His elect should perish, God wants every elect person to come into the knowledge of the truth.

Of course it has to mean that because you have to interpret the Bible thru the TULIP lens otherwise it all falls apart. If God wants every single person to be saved then we would have to conclude that the L in TULIP isnt true, nor is the I or U. Now we have to actually study the Bible for ourselves and harmonize God's desire for all to be saved and not all being saved. I know, could it be that some reject the free gift of salvation and resist the Holy Spirit?

You have to interpret the Bible, through Jacob Arminius' lens, otherwise it all falls apart.

Jacob Arminius taught that God is not sovereign, He is not almighty, He cannot accomplish what He sets out to acheive, without the help of fallen sinners who hate Him.
He offers eternal life in paradise for free to everyone, but the vast majority reject His offer and choose eternal torment in the lake of fire instead, because He doesn't know how to sell His prosperity gospel effectively.

None of that describes the true and Living God of the Bible. The One true and living God, preordained and predestined everything. Nothing can happen apart from His will, the god Jacob Arminius described created everything and sat back and let everything unravel and evolve haphazardly.

 

[Journey_man]

Fake apology, fake theology. See? I made a rhime.

What's fake about my theology?, I take it you can't answer because you don't know. Let me remind you that there's no safety in numbers, when it comes to the truth. Don't follow the crowd travelling on (the Broadway) and outsource your eternal security to the mob

 

[brightfame52]

If your definition of "Total Depravity" is man having a sin nature because of which he is unable to know God and continues in sin, then I agree with you, but I still would not use the term "depraved" because that would mean that a person is incapable of doing anything. As you acknowledged that man is able to do quite a lot without being saved. Nevertheless, let me use your terminology for the sake of argument.
How can a totally depraved person receive God and be saved? Rom. 10:13-15 gives us the answer. When a preacher preaches the gospel, faith is built up in the heart of the hearer thereby he calls upon the name of the Lord and gets saved. Rom. 10:17 confirms the fact that the person who hears the gospel receives faith. Now if you don't acknowledge this, you are not being honest because this is plain English. It is not Greek or Latin to say that we could not understand.

Your logic of God sending people to hell just because Adam committed sin for which cause they have to suffer the consequences is just not illogical, it is plain demonic. Here is a disclaimer: "Anyone who reads my last statement and judges me must first read the context on which I have responded. The context is that awelight says that we are not judged on the basis of we rejecting Christ but on the basis of what Adam did."

You are attempting to redefine terms to fit your theology, but your arguments collapse under the combined weight of Scripture and basic logic. You admit that man has a sin nature and is "unable to know God," yet you immediately turn around and claim that this same unable man can master his own salvation. Let’s address your contradictions head-on:

1. Dismantling the Semantic Escape: "Depravity" vs. "Sin Nature"

Your refusal to use the word "depraved" because you think it means "incapable of doing anything" proves you are fighting a strawman.

• As previously established, Total Depravity does not mean a person is a completely inactive block of wood or a zombie. It means that sin has entirely corrupted every part of man’s nature—his mind, his emotions, and his will.
• A depraved man can run governments, perform surgery, and build civilizations. But what he is utterly incapable of doing is performing a spiritually good act, such as choosing, loving, or submitting to the true God (Romans 8:7-8).
• He is not physically paralyzed; he is spiritually dead (Ephesians 2:1). By admitting man is "unable to know God," you have conceded the entire definition of Total Depravity, whether you like the label or not.

2. The Logic of Romans 10: Preaching is the Tool, Not the Cause

You point to Romans 10:13-17 to claim that a spiritually dead person simply hears the gospel and "receives faith" on their own. This completely misses the scriptural mechanism of salvation. Romans 10 describes the instrument God uses (preaching), not the spiritual condition required to accept it.

• Left to themselves, when a totally depraved, spiritually dead person hears the gospel, they don't accept it—they mock it. Paul explicitly declares in 1 Corinthians 2:14: "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them..."
• If hearing the preaching was enough to automatically build faith, then everyone who heard Paul or Jesus preach would have believed. But they didn't.
• A dead man cannot "call upon the name of the Lord" until he is first made alive. As John 3:3 states, a man cannot even see or perceive the kingdom of God unless he is born again first.
• The original Greek text of 1 John 5:1 makes the order of salvation flawless: "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ has been born (γεγέννηται - perfect tense, meaning a past completed action) of God." Faith is the fruit and evidence of regeneration, not the cause of it.

3. The Biblical Reality of Federal Headship (Romans 5)

Calling the clear teaching of the Apostle Paul "demonic" does not erase it from the Bible. Your emotional reaction stems from a complete failure to understand how God covenants with humanity through Federal Headship (Romans 5:12-19, 1 Corinthians 15:22).

• Adam was the legal representative of the human race. When he fell, the entire race fell in him: "By the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation" (Romans 5:18).
• If you reject this corporate principle as unjust, you logically destroy the mechanics of the gospel itself. Romans 5 sets up a direct parallel: we are condemned through the legal imputation of the First Adam's sin, and we are justified through the legal imputation of the Last Adam's (Christ's) righteousness. If it is "demonic" for Adam’s guilt to be credited to his posterity, then it must be equally "demonic" for Christ’s righteousness to be credited to the elect without them earning it.

4. There Are No Innocent People in Hell

You claim we believe God throws "innocent victims" into hell over an ancient crime they didn't commit. That is a flat-out lie.

• Because of Adam's fall, every human being is conceived with a wholly corrupt, sinful nature (Psalm 51:5).
• This inherited nature is an active engine of rebellion that hates God, breaks His laws, and produces actual, personal sins.
• When the reprobate stand before the bar of divine justice, they are judged strictly according to their own wicked deeds and their voluntary enmity toward God (Revelation 20:12). Adam’s sin made them corrupt, but their own daily choices prove they love that corruption.

Men are not condemned only because they reject the gospel; they are condemned because they are lawbreakers standing in open treason against a Holy Creator. The gospel is a proclamation of rescue for those who are already justly condemned.

---

 

[Journey_man]

There is not one clear scripture when examined in context of the surrounding text, the original language and the full counsel of God which clearly states a person is regenerated or gifted initial faith prior to salvation.

A spiritually dead person cannot choose God before He changes their heart. This concept highlights the doctrine of monergistic regeneration—the belief that God alone, and not human cooperation, initiates salvation.

The Bible states that humans are "dead in the trespasses and sins". Just as a physically dead corpse cannot respond to physical stimuli, a spiritually dead soul cannot choose, desire, or seek after God.

A person must be "born again" (regenerated) by the Holy Spirit before they can exercise faith. God supernaturally changes the person's heart, replacing their hostile disposition with a new, willing nature.

Once God changes the heart and gives spiritual life, the person is freely and willingly enabled to choose God. The desire to repent and believe in Christ becomes a natural, inevitable fruit of this new heart, rather than an act of the old, unregenerate will.

Ephesians 2:8-9: "For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God." Reformed scholars argue the Greek pronoun for "that" (touto) is neuter, referring to the entire process of salvation, including faith itself, as God's gift.

Philippians 1:29: "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his name." This explicitly states that believing is something granted to us by God.
Acts 16:14: When Lydia heard the gospel, "The Lord opened her heart to pay attention to what was said by Paul." This demonstrates God must first open the mind to believe.
John 6:44: Jesus states, "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him." This asserts that human will cannot initiate belief without divine drawing.
John 1:12-13: Believers are described as those who are born "not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
2 Timothy 2:25: Paul tells Timothy to gently correct opponents "if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to a knowledge of the truth."

 

[Journey_man]

Christ was predestined.

He was The Plan.

What was Christ predestined to, and what do you mean by "He was the plan".

 

[DavidLamb]

They think they are special even before conception. They cant grasp that they are just another creature like the rest of us. Special snowflakes.

No they don't think they are special. They would agree with the words of this hymn verse:

"Chosen not for good in me,
wakened up from wrath to flee,
hidden in the Saviour's side,
by the Spirit sanctified,
teach me, Lord, on earth to show,
by my love, how much I owe."