Here are the differences between the last two prophetic comings of Christ (the Rapture vs Second Coming)

[GaryA]

Why is it that modern-day 'pre-trib' folks who say that God would never let the 'Church' go through an expected future 'tribulation' not seem to realize or remember that the 'Church' went through the most horrible things during the Dark Ages?

A non Sequitur.

It is not about one following after the other; rather, it is about all of it being taken together.

Revelation 6:

9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? 11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

Revelation 7:

9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands; 10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb. 11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God, 12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen. 13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they? 14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

The souls under the altar are the martyrs from the Dark Ages. The fellowservants they are waiting for/on are future (to that time) martyrs, including those who do not worship the beast or take the mark of the beast.

The first group are 'tribulation' saints. The second group are 'tribulation' saints. They are all 'tribulation' saints. All are martyrs from the 'great tribulation' that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24.

That is why there can be no 'pre-trib' rapture. There cannot be any 'pre-trib' anything - because, we are already in the 'great tribulation' - since 70 A.D. - it has already started. (and is ongoing)

'mid-trib' is ~1000 years ago

'post-trib' is yet future

 

[GaryA]

Just to try and deal with the hate you express.

No hate on my end...

On the contrary - I am expressing love - the truth of the scriptures as I see it.

Sure - it is my interpretation. But, why can you not simply accept it as such?

We can 'agree to disagree agreeably'.

 

[GaryA]

There is no 7-year 'prophetic' End Times period.

There will be no 7-year treaty between any antichrist and Israel (as being in accordance with bible prophecy).

No one makes a covenant with anyone in Daniel 9; however, [Jesus] confirms [the already existing covenant] 'for one week'.

That 'week' ended in 34 A.D. - when the [continuous/unbroken] 70 weeks of Daniel also ended. It is fulfilled. It is past history.

This is the proper interpretation of Daniel 9.

Those who believe there is a 'covenant'/'treaty' between an antichrist figure and Israel represented in Daniel 9 are woefully misinterpreting scripture.

When folks finally obtain a proper understanding of some things like the fifth seal description and the Two Witnesses account - [virtually] all questions are answered and all doubt is removed - pride takes a fall - and, by/through humility, understanding becomes exceedingly clear.

The answers are there - in scripture - and may be found. However, you must be far more interested in knowing the [real actual] truth - "even if it hurts" - than "being comfortable" in your beliefs - or, you will never see those answers correctly. A proper understanding only comes with an overriding desire to know the truth above all else...

 

[GaryA]

http://mywebsite.us/BibleStudy/Time_Line.html

Please note the 'Christian Martyrs' (in red) lines/rows - which all occur within the time frame of the 'great tribulation' that Jesus spoke of in Matthew 24.

 

[FredVB]

Charts used to be more meaningful to me. I started off as a Christian hearing and believing the pretribulation rapture perspective, and I continued a very long time with that. But scripture prophecy about that is not strong, there are reasons others find for different positions. It is in the future, and we try to claim to know how things are going to happen in the future before those things come. This has happened before, and every time they all get it wrong. I would too, so I do not insist on any position. But I do have observations I can share. I don't know when the time we who are believers will be caught up to be with the Lord, often referred to as the Rapture, will be. I see there is no basis to say time of prophesied tribulation cannot come until after that. Why will that being caught up happen? Think carefully. It would not be for taking us out from tribulation or any difficulty. That did not happen for many believers who suffered through more than you would. Being caught up to be removed from this earth would have one important meaning. God's wrath is coming on all left in this earth, with their unrepented rebellion to God and the wickedness. God does not leave those in Christ there as Christ bore everything for them, that they with the repentance in their faith are not under judgment themselves. So the believers who are all in Christ will be removed from this earth and will be with the Lord before that wrath from God at the end, and Christ is returning to reign on the earth then.

There is collapse spoken of in the Bible and that doesn't get the attention that I think is called for. Everyone else has some other interpretation of it, that it would not apply to them.

 

[Psalm1]

Charts used to be more meaningful to me. I started off as a Christian hearing and believing the pretribulation rapture perspective, and I continued a very long time with that. But scripture prophecy about that is not strong, there are reasons others find for different positions. It is in the future, and we try to claim to know how things are going to happen in the future before those things come. This has happened before, and every time they all get it wrong. I would too, so I do not insist on any position. But I do have observations I can share. I don't know when the time we who are believers will be caught up to be with the Lord, often referred to as the Rapture, will be. I see there is no basis to say time of prophesied tribulation cannot come until after that. Why will that being caught up happen? Think carefully. It would not be for taking us out from tribulation or any difficulty. That did not happen for many believers who suffered through more than you would. Being caught up to be removed from this earth would have one important meaning. God's wrath is coming on all left in this earth, with their unrepented rebellion to God and the wickedness. God does not leave those in Christ there as Christ bore everything for them, that they with the repentance in their faith are not under judgment themselves. So the believers who are all in Christ will be removed from this earth and will be with the Lord before that wrath from God at the end, and Christ is returning to reign on the earth then.

There is collapse spoken of in the Bible and that doesn't get the attention that I think is called for. Everyone else has some other interpretation of it, that it would not apply to them.

Except all rapture verses are normal life setting. Everyday life, commerce, buying and selling, planning for the future, marriage.

That is opposite the setting in your model.

Are you taking the position that God never takes his people out pretrib ?
Noah?
Lot?
The Baby Jesus?
All gathered pretrib.

Jesus taught the pretrib rapture in mat 24.
JESUS taught the 2 escape verses in the bible.

Without a question, the Bible definitely teaches a pretrib rapture.

BTW... post a postrib rapture verse.

 

[Blade]

You know things have changed since Christ came. The way the world was.. is not any more for the moment. With Moses in Pharaoh's court, ..they tossed a stick down turns into a snake. That alone does not happen today. Satan right now can not come out in the open. Something is holding him back. Yes there are those in this world that suffer more then others and then others that do suffer much at all. We all have tribulation yet this is not as we all know what's coming.

What coming has never before been on the earth...never. What coming is Gods wrath on the world with Satan and his all out in the open doing things no one has ever seen. So how are you going to prepare for this? How? When someone doing things you have never seen before.. that appear only a GOD can do. You can't believe in the promises He gave now.. you think you will in a time that has never been before? Again feel free to go warn all those people suffering things we never have and tell them .. those that cry out hope pray He is coming NOW. Tell them.. you have no hope..He is never coming for you. You have to endure more sufferer more then you ever have.
How many really practice what we preach/believe? Any one of us can every day go door to door talk to everyone that passes us by.. we can risk losing our job family by sharing sticking up for Him.. this is not even the great tribulation. Putting every thing aside for just His word and praying 24/7? What just preaches prophets Apostles are called to that? Not what I read. We are not the few out there He talks about. We won't we will come up with excuses as to why we don't do this. Yes.. I have been like this from the moment I first came here.. I just say nothing.

Like NF rapper Oh lord
It's easy to blame God but harder to fix things
We look in the sky like, "Why ain't You listening?"
Watching the news in our living rooms on the big screens
And talking 'bout "if God's really real, then where is He?"
You see the same God that you saying might not even exist
Becomes real to us, but only when we dying in bed
When ya healthy it's like, we don't really care for Him then
Leave me alone God, I'll call you when I need you again
Which is funny, everyone will sleep in the pews
Then blame God for our problems like He sleeping on you
We turn our backs on Him, what do you expect Him to do?
It's hard to answer prayers when nobody's praying to you

Not here to offend forgive me. If today is all I have.. I love Him.. I am not of this world... He said He is coming quickly.. Here I am ready.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

...

The Secret Resurrection Of The Mystery = God's Great GRACE Departure!

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!” (online):

The First Resurrection Of Prophecy (PDF)

Amen.

Precious friends, I apologize for the errors - here are the Corrections:

The Secret Resurrection Of The Mystery = God's Great GRACE Departure!

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15 AV) From “Things That Differ!" (BBS)

The First Resurrection Of Prophecy (PDF)

Thanks for all your patience!

Be Blessed!!

 

[Abeofold]

Yes, true indeed, I think the belief now is that the Tribulation starts when the Antichrist and Israel sign the 7-year covenant.

Mat 24:8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

Mat 24:15 Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place (whoever reads, let him understand). 16 Then let those in Judea flee into the mountains.

1st 3 1/2 yrs are the beginning of sorrows. Then comes the great Tribulation.

 

[Abeofold]

The 70th week of Daniel is not The Great Tribulation. Starting with the confirmation of a treaty with many, the anti-christ starts his moves towards world domination. Jesus calls this 'the beginning of sorrows'. Mat 24:8.

Then comes the abomination of desolation: the anti-christ defiles the 3rd temple and and sets himself up "as god". This is the start of The Great Tribulation. This probably coincides with the 4th seal during which about 2bil people are killed. Rev 6:7 & 8. This period is cut short Mat 24:22.

Rev 6:17 heralds The Day of The Wrath of The Lord which is preceded by the Sealing of the Jewish Remnant and The Rapture [Rev 7].

Rev 8 is the 7th Seal and the start of The Great Day of the Wrath of The Lord. Rev 9 describes the Trumpets [GOD's Wrath]. NB vv 1 - 12; a period of 5 months, the 5th Trumpet. The 6th Trumpet is the release of a heavenly army to kill 1/3 of mankind. There is an interlude in Rev and the 7th Trumpet sounds in Rev 11.

The Wrath of The Lord continues with the 7 bowls in Rev 16. The destruction on earth is horrendous.

The 70th week ends in Rev 19.

There are numerous interludes in Rev but I hope I have captured the essential sequence.

A point worth noting is that The Mark of The Beast is instituted AFTER the Abomination of Desolation.

Hold on to your seats; things are getting hot.

 

[Psalm1]

The 70th week of Daniel is not The Great Tribulation. Starting with the confirmation of a treaty with many, the anti-christ starts his moves towards world domination. Jesus calls this 'the beginning of sorrows'. Mat 24:8.

Then comes the abomination of desolation: the anti-christ defiles the 3rd temple and and sets himself up "as god". This is the start of The Great Tribulation. This probably coincides with the 4th seal during which about 2bil people are killed. Rev 6:7 & 8. This period is cut short Mat 24:22.

Rev 6:17 heralds The Day of The Wrath of The Lord which is preceded by the Sealing of the Jewish Remnant and The Rapture [Rev 7].

Rev 8 is the 7th Seal and the start of The Great Day of the Wrath of The Lord. Rev 9 describes the Trumpets [GOD's Wrath]. NB vv 1 - 12; a period of 5 months, the 5th Trumpet. The 6th Trumpet is the release of a heavenly army to kill 1/3 of mankind. There is an interlude in Rev and the 7th Trumpet sounds in Rev 11.

The Wrath of The Lord continues with the 7 bowls in Rev 16. The destruction on earth is horrendous.

The 70th week ends in Rev 19.

There are numerous interludes in Rev but I hope I have captured the essential sequence.

A point worth noting is that The Mark of The Beast is instituted AFTER the Abomination of Desolation.

Hold on to your seats; things are getting hot.

QUOTE
"A point worth noting is that The Mark of The Beast is instituted AFTER the Abomination of Desolation."

Scripture?

 

[Abeofold]

QUOTE
"A point worth noting is that The Mark of The Beast is instituted AFTER the Abomination of Desolation."

Scripture?

Rev 13:1 -10. This is after The abomination of desolation. [v5]

 

[Abeofold]

QUOTE
"A point worth noting is that The Mark of The Beast is instituted AFTER the Abomination of Desolation."

Scripture?

Rev 13:1 -10. This is after The abomination of desolation. [v5]

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Rev 13:1 -10. This is after The abomination of desolation. [v5]

You seem to know your stuff. When do you think the antichrist will be revealed?

1. The EU will have their elections in 2029. The antichrist might arise from that.

2. Also the whole world is demanding a two-state solution more and more. An agreement among many can happen in the 2030s which the ac might broker.

3. The river Euphrates is drying up and is estimated to dry up naturally by 2040. However, the Bible said that it will be dried up supernaturally making the way for the kings of east to cross it earlier than 2040.

4. The technology for the mark of the beast is a reality and not just a daydream.

So what do you think?

 

[Abeofold]

Charts used to be more meaningful to me. I started off as a Christian hearing and believing the pretribulation rapture perspective, and I continued a very long time with that. But scripture prophecy about that is not strong, there are reasons others find for different positions. It is in the future, and we try to claim to know how things are going to happen in the future before those things come. This has happened before, and every time they all get it wrong. I would too, so I do not insist on any position. But I do have observations I can share. I don't know when the time we who are believers will be caught up to be with the Lord, often referred to as the Rapture, will be. I see there is no basis to say time of prophesied tribulation cannot come until after that. Why will that being caught up happen? Think carefully. It would not be for taking us out from tribulation or any difficulty. That did not happen for many believers who suffered through more than you would. Being caught up to be removed from this earth would have one important meaning. God's wrath is coming on all left in this earth, with their unrepented rebellion to God and the wickedness. God does not leave those in Christ there as Christ bore everything for them, that they with the repentance in their faith are not under judgment themselves. So the believers who are all in Christ will be removed from this earth and will be with the Lord before that wrath from God at the end, and Christ is returning to reign on the earth then.

There is collapse spoken of in the Bible and that doesn't get the attention that I think is called for. Everyone else has some other interpretation of it, that it would not apply to them.

I agree with your position that the rapture precedes The Day of The Lord.

 

[Abeofold]

Are you taking the position that God never takes his people out pretrib ?

NO. I understand Pre-Wrath.

 

[Abeofold]

You seem to know your stuff. When do you think the antichrist will be revealed?

1. The EU will have their elections in 2029. The antichrist might arise from that.

2. Also the whole world is demanding a two-state solution more and more. An agreement among many can happen in the 2030s which the ac might broker.

3. The river Euphrates is drying up and is estimated to dry up naturally by 2040. However, the Bible said that it will be dried up supernaturally making the way for the kings of east to cross it earlier than 2040.

4. The technology for the mark of the beast is a reality and not just a daydream.

So what do you think?

I think the 70th week is closer. During the 1st-half the AC is maneuvering towards the Abomination; 2029/30? [1 & 2]

3 this is prep for Armageddon [2033/4]

4 Yes.

 

[PaulThomson]

For those who put the Rapture and the Second Coming at roughly the same time, I offer this list of contrasts between the Rapture and the Second Coming. Each number in one section corresponds to the same number in the other section. This is also a list that supports the Rapture happening before the Tribulation, and the Second Coming happening at the end of the Tribulation.


At the Rapture:
1. Christ comes FOR His own in the air
2. All believers are translated into new bodies
3. Christians are taken to the Father's House
4. There is no judgment on the earth
5. The Church will be in Heaven
6. It is an imminent occurrence
7. There are no signs preceding it
8. It affects believers only
9. It is a time of joy
10. it occurs before the day of Wrath
11. No mention of Satan
12. The Judgment Seat of Christ happens next
13. There is the marriage of the Lamb
14. Only Christ's own will see him
15. The Tribulation begins

At the Second Coming:
1. Christ comes WITH his own
2. No Translation of bodies
3. resurrected saints remain on earth
4. Christ judges the inhabitants of the earth
5. Christ sets up his kingdom on earth
6. It can not occur until the seven-year Trib period
7. The are numerous signs preceding it
8. It affects all humanity
9. It is a time of mourning
10. It occurs after the Tribulation
11. Satan is bound in abyss 1,000 years
12. No judgment seat of Christ
13. His bride descends with him to earth
14. Every eye will see him
15. The millennial reign of Christ begins

There is very little agreement between these two charts, demonstrating that the Rapture does not happen at the Second Coming. Note also that the Rapture is only revealed in the NT, whereas the Second Coming is revealed in both the OT and NT. That is because the Rapture was a mystery doctrine.

You have made 30 claims here, but have not cited any scriptures to show where those claims are validated by scripture. Could you, please, show us from where in scripture you are inferring these 30 points?

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

You have made 30 claims here, but have not cited any scriptures to show where those claims are validated by scripture. Could you, please, show us from where in scripture you are inferring these 30 points?

He won't be able to. They are not in the Bible. No, he'll have to twist Bible verses first, add some things in, and ignore that Jesus plainly said He will come pick us up on the last day.

 

[tablet123]

God has to end sin on earth one day so He is allowing the world to have their way for 7 years and cause all people who do not love the truth to follow the antichrist.

So the saints will remain on earth for the 7 years period to represent the truth.

If they are not on earth how did the world go against the truth.

There is only 2 resurrections, 1 of the saints before the millennial reign, and 1 of the dead after the millennial reign.

Which Paul said the saints will not be gathered unto Christ until the man of sin claims to be God which he will say he is the savior and will cause them to evolve and be spiritual, and advance.

The new age christianity with all religions interpreted the same.

The last 3.5 years the saints are given in to his hands.

And when that time is up then comes the end when the Son shall deliver up the kingdom and then put down all power, rule, and authority.

The first 3.5 years salvation is still available to the world so the wrath of God is not there.

When they take the mark then salvation is not available to them and God can end sin on earth.

The beast has power over all nations, kindreds, and tongues, so the wrath of God is not there.

The wrath of God is not in the 7 years period but after it.

The seals and trumpets are not the wrath of God.

The New Age Christ will negotiate peace in the Middle East resulting in a 7 years peace treaty that affects the world and the 7 years will start.

He will push the agenda of the new age and change the world to that system.

There are souls under the altar in heaven but they have not received their glorified body yet.

At the end of the 7 years the resurrection happens and the dead rise first which means they receive their glorified body.

And then those alive and remain will be caught up and they receive their glorified body.

Which it all happens on the same day, the same event.

The wrath of God is poured upon the world leading up to the battle of Armageddon where Jesus comes back with the saints and defeats the world and saves Israel.

Satan is put in the bottomless pit and not deceiving the nations.

The millennial reign happens and the kingdom is restored to Israel and Jesus will reign out of Jerusalem which the heathen that God spared have to go up year after year to worship Jesus and keep the feast of tabernacles.

At the end of the reign Satan is loosed from the bottomless pit where he deceives the heathen to go against the saints and God will rain fire down on them and devour them and the reign is over.

They had punishment coming for they took the mark but God postponed it until the end of the reign so Jesus could rule over them to fulfill the role of King on earth which then the law is fulfilled.

Then the dead will rise and be judged and heaven and earth will pass away.

Then the saints will be at a new earth the New Jerusalem wherein dwells righteousness.

Where sin has never been and sin will never be.

And the saints will not remember the former earth neither will it come in to their mind for it is associated with sin and rebellion, and the saints will not remember their family and friends that did not believe and did not make it.