More about Israel.

[Vucesa]

With due respect, it seems to me your interpretation is spiritualizing Rev 20 but literalizing the New Heavens and Earth. I could be said, you can't have it both ways.

Take a look at 2 Peter 3:10-13 and the parable of the sheep and goats and wheat and tares. Now compare them to Revelation 20 and see where do those verses fit? I would say from verse 9 onwards, where fire comes down from heaven and then we see a general resurrection. Just like 2 Peter 3:10-13 and 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 teach, the fire comes at the coming of Jesus, the new heaven and new earth come at the coming of Jesus, death is defeated at the coming of Jesus and the dead both righteous and wicked are raised at the coming of Jesus on the last day. [ John 5:28-29 ]

 

[Aussie52]

Take a look at 2 Peter 3:10-13 and the parable of the sheep and goats and wheat and tares. Now compare them to Revelation 20 and see where do those verses fit? I would say from verse 9 onwards, where fire comes down from heaven and then we see a general resurrection. Just like 2 Peter 3:10-13 and 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9 teach, the fire comes at the coming of Jesus, the new heaven and new earth come at the coming of Jesus, death is defeated at the coming of Jesus and the dead both righteous and wicked are raised at the coming of Jesus on the last day. [ John 5:28-29 ]

You can stick to your Amillennialism if you wish, and I'll stick with my Historic Premillennialism. Be Blessed.

 

[Vucesa]

You can stick to your Amillennialism if you wish, and I'll stick with my Historic Premillennialism. Be Blessed.

Remains to be seen. I am reading and learning about it. Both are within orthodoxy. I just feel at the moment that all the 2nd coming verses I mentioned seem to fit at the end of the milllennium.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

I'm pretty sure pagan Hitler didn't care about replacement theology... Maybe replacing the world with a 10 foot tall Germanic race in his fantasy land mind.

Well he was smart enough to use Martin Luthers Antisemtic views.

 

[BetterCallPsalms]

I have just shown how a OT Prophecy pertaining to the children of Israel in Ezk 37, can and does apply to the Church, The Spiritual seed of Abraham, which is Israel. The Seed of Abraham is another way of saying Israel isa 41:8

But thou, Israel, art my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend.

And both Christ Gal 3:16 and believers Gal 3:29 are called the seed of Abraham, so both are Israel..

I will now by the grace of God show forth, even though its not understood by the masses in organized religion today, that the Church is one continuity in the OT and NT, that the NT Church is the Fulfillment of the Old Testament Prophecy concerning Israel [seed of Abraham]; So the promises concerning the promised Kingdom/land is to be understood spiritually and not naturally.

Peter assures us the prophecies of old was concerning the grace that would be unto us the Church, even though the name Israel was in used.. 1 Pet 1:10

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace that should come unto you:

The prophets just saw the grace coming to Israel, Gods Chosen covenant people-which it did, but it was just not to ethnic jews, but to jews and gentiles in Christ. 4

Yeah, a lot of people I have noticed think there is salvation just for being a Jew, seeing two paths to salvation for two groups of people and Titus says to ignore ones genetic background.

John 8:56, Jesus states that "Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; he saw it and was glad."

So I would say the seed of Abraham is spiritual in seeing Christ, or God's grace fulfilling the law.

Genesis 22:17 states that God promised Abraham, "I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore." This verse emphasizes the vastness of Abraham's lineage.

The physical seed of Abraham does not relate to salvation. It has many relations to other scriptures about God's future plans for Israeli's during the times of Jacob's troubles.

 

[BetterCallPsalms]

Well he was smart enough to use Martin Luthers Antisemtic views.

Find a speech where Hitler uses his views.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

Find a speech where Hitler uses his views.

I knew Hitler was influenced by Martin Luther so I had AI compile what he said and wrote that proved Martin Luther's influence on Hitler:

1. Hitler’s Own Words​

• Speech in Berlin (January 30, 1933): On the day he became Chancellor, Hitler stated in a public address: "I do insist on the certainty that... Luther, if he could be with us, would give us his blessing."
  
  • Source: The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922–August 1939, Vol. 1, edited by Norman H. Baynes, Oxford University Press, 1942, p. 200.
• Table Talk (1942): In private conversations recorded by his secretaries, Hitler praised Luther’s stance against the Jews. On October 21, 1941, he said: "The great Luther... I have learned much from Luther." regarding the Jewish question.
  
  • Source: Hitler’s Table Talk, 1941–1944, edited by H.R. Trevor-Roper, Enigma Books, 2000, p. 59.
• Mein Kampf (1925): While he does not quote Luther’s anti-Jewish tract directly here, he lists Luther as one of the three "great warriors" of German history alongside Frederick the Great and Richard Wagner, establishing him as a foundational hero.
  
  • Source: Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 7, "The Revolution."

2. Nazi Officials and​

• Martin Sasse (Provincial Bishop of Thuringia): Shortly after the November 1938 pogroms (Kristallnacht), Sasse published a pamphlet titled Martin Luther und die Juden: Weg mit ihnen! ("Martin Luther and the Jews: Away with Them!").
  
  • Quote: In the introduction, Sasse wrote: "On November 10, 1938, on Luther’s birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany... The German people are now doing what Luther wanted... 'Away with them!'"
  • Source: Sasse, Martin. Martin Luther und die Juden: Weg mit ihnen! Freiburg, 1938. (Reprinted in The Holocaust: A Reader, edited by Simone Gigliotti, Blackwell Publishing, 2005, p. 36).
• Julius Streicher (Editor of Der Stürmer): During his testimony at the Nuremberg Trials, Streicher explicitly admitted his reliance on Luther.
  
  • Quote: When asked about the source of his antisemitism, Streicher testified: "I have based my actions on the writings of Martin Luther... I could have called no other witness than Dr. Martin Luther." He specifically cited On the Jews and Their Lies.
  • Source: Trial of the Major War Criminals before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 1947, Vol. 12, pp. 301–302.

3. The Specific Text Used:​

The Nazi regime did not just reference Luther generally; they republished his specific anti-Jewish tract.

• Nazi Reprints: The text Von den Jüden und iren Lügen was reprinted by the Nazi publishing house Der Stürmer in 1937 and distributed widely.
• Content Match: The seven points Luther listed in this tract (burn synagogues, destroy homes, seize prayer books, forbid rabbis to teach, abolish safe conduct, confiscate wealth, force labor/expulsion) directly mirror the progression of Nazi laws from 1933 to 1945.
  
  • Source: Luther, Martin. On the Jews and Their Lies (1543). In Luther’s Works, Vol. 47: The Christian in Society III, edited by Franklin Sherman, Fortress Press, 1971, pp. 137–306.

4. Historical Analysis (Secondary Sources)​

For further verification of how these sources are interpreted by historians:

• William L. Shirer: In The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (1960), Shirer dedicates a section to "The Persecution of the Christian Churches" and details how the Nazis utilized Luther’s writings.
• Richard Steigmann-Gall: In The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919–1945 (2003), he documents the specific theological appropriation of Luther by Nazi leaders.
• Diarmaid MacCulloch: In Reformation: Europe’s House Divided 1490–1700 (2003), he analyzes the direct line from Luther’s 1543 tract to the events of Kristallnacht.

 

[God-fearing]

I knew Hitler was influenced by Martin Luther so I had AI compile what he said and wrote that proved Martin Luther's influence on Hitler:

1. Hitler’s Own Words​

• Speech in Berlin (January 30, 1933): On the day he became Chancellor, Hitler stated in a public address: "I do insist on the certainty that... Luther, if he could be with us, would give us his blessing."
  
  • Source: The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922–August 1939, Vol. 1, edited by Norman H. Baynes, Oxford University Press, 1942, p. 200.
• Table Talk (1942): In private conversations recorded by his secretaries, Hitler praised Luther’s stance against the Jews. On October 21, 1941, he said: "The great Luther... I have learned much from Luther." regarding the Jewish question.
  
  • Source: Hitler’s Table Talk, 1941–1944, edited by H.R. Trevor-Roper, Enigma Books, 2000, p. 59.
• Mein Kampf (1925): While he does not quote Luther’s anti-Jewish tract directly here, he lists Luther as one of the three "great warriors" of German history alongside Frederick the Great and Richard Wagner, establishing him as a foundational hero.
  
  • Source: Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 7, "The Revolution."

2. Nazi Officials and​

• Martin Sasse (Provincial Bishop of Thuringia): Shortly after the November 1938 pogroms (Kristallnacht), Sasse published a pamphlet titled Martin Luther und die Juden: Weg mit ihnen! ("Martin Luther and the Jews: Away with Them!").
  
  • Quote: In the introduction, Sasse wrote: "On November 10, 1938, on Luther’s birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany... The German people are now doing what Luther wanted... 'Away with them!'"
  • Source: Sasse, Martin. Martin Luther und die Juden: Weg mit ihnen! Freiburg, 1938. (Reprinted in The Holocaust: A Reader, edited by Simone Gigliotti, Blackwell Publishing, 2005, p. 36).
• Julius Streicher (Editor of Der Stürmer): During his testimony at the Nuremberg Trials, Streicher explicitly admitted his reliance on Luther.
  
  • Quote: When asked about the source of his antisemitism, Streicher testified: "I have based my actions on the writings of Martin Luther... I could have called no other witness than Dr. Martin Luther." He specifically cited On the Jews and Their Lies.
  • Source: Trial of the Major War Criminals before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 1947, Vol. 12, pp. 301–302.

3. The Specific Text Used:​

The Nazi regime did not just reference Luther generally; they republished his specific anti-Jewish tract.

• Nazi Reprints: The text Von den Jüden und iren Lügen was reprinted by the Nazi publishing house Der Stürmer in 1937 and distributed widely.
• Content Match: The seven points Luther listed in this tract (burn synagogues, destroy homes, seize prayer books, forbid rabbis to teach, abolish safe conduct, confiscate wealth, force labor/expulsion) directly mirror the progression of Nazi laws from 1933 to 1945.
  
  • Source: Luther, Martin. On the Jews and Their Lies (1543). In Luther’s Works, Vol. 47: The Christian in Society III, edited by Franklin Sherman, Fortress Press, 1971, pp. 137–306.

4. Historical Analysis (Secondary Sources)​

For further verification of how these sources are interpreted by historians:

• William L. Shirer: In The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (1960), Shirer dedicates a section to "The Persecution of the Christian Churches" and details how the Nazis utilized Luther’s writings.
• Richard Steigmann-Gall: In The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919–1945 (2003), he documents the specific theological appropriation of Luther by Nazi leaders.
• Diarmaid MacCulloch: In Reformation: Europe’s House Divided 1490–1700 (2003), he analyzes the direct line from Luther’s 1543 tract to the events of Kristallnacht.

You go saint

 

[Aussie52]

I knew Hitler was influenced by Martin Luther so I had AI compile what he said and wrote that proved Martin Luther's influence on Hitler:

1. Hitler’s Own Words​

• Speech in Berlin (January 30, 1933): On the day he became Chancellor, Hitler stated in a public address: "I do insist on the certainty that... Luther, if he could be with us, would give us his blessing."
  • Source: The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922–August 1939, Vol. 1, edited by Norman H. Baynes, Oxford University Press, 1942, p. 200.
• Table Talk (1942): In private conversations recorded by his secretaries, Hitler praised Luther’s stance against the Jews. On October 21, 1941, he said: "The great Luther... I have learned much from Luther." regarding the Jewish question.
  • Source: Hitler’s Table Talk, 1941–1944, edited by H.R. Trevor-Roper, Enigma Books, 2000, p. 59.
• Mein Kampf (1925): While he does not quote Luther’s anti-Jewish tract directly here, he lists Luther as one of the three "great warriors" of German history alongside Frederick the Great and Richard Wagner, establishing him as a foundational hero.
  • Source: Mein Kampf, Vol. 1, Chapter 7, "The Revolution."

2. Nazi Officials and​

• Martin Sasse (Provincial Bishop of Thuringia): Shortly after the November 1938 pogroms (Kristallnacht), Sasse published a pamphlet titled Martin Luther und die Juden: Weg mit ihnen! ("Martin Luther and the Jews: Away with Them!").
  • Quote: In the introduction, Sasse wrote: "On November 10, 1938, on Luther’s birthday, the synagogues are burning in Germany... The German people are now doing what Luther wanted... 'Away with them!'"
  • Source: Sasse, Martin. Martin Luther und die Juden: Weg mit ihnen! Freiburg, 1938. (Reprinted in The Holocaust: A Reader, edited by Simone Gigliotti, Blackwell Publishing, 2005, p. 36).
• Julius Streicher (Editor of Der Stürmer): During his testimony at the Nuremberg Trials, Streicher explicitly admitted his reliance on Luther.
  • Quote: When asked about the source of his antisemitism, Streicher testified: "I have based my actions on the writings of Martin Luther... I could have called no other witness than Dr. Martin Luther." He specifically cited On the Jews and Their Lies.
  • Source: Trial of the Major War Criminals before the International Military Tribunal, Nuremberg, 1947, Vol. 12, pp. 301–302.

3. The Specific Text Used:​

The Nazi regime did not just reference Luther generally; they republished his specific anti-Jewish tract.

• Nazi Reprints: The text Von den Jüden und iren Lügen was reprinted by the Nazi publishing house Der Stürmer in 1937 and distributed widely.
• Content Match: The seven points Luther listed in this tract (burn synagogues, destroy homes, seize prayer books, forbid rabbis to teach, abolish safe conduct, confiscate wealth, force labor/expulsion) directly mirror the progression of Nazi laws from 1933 to 1945.
  • Source: Luther, Martin. On the Jews and Their Lies (1543). In Luther’s Works, Vol. 47: The Christian in Society III, edited by Franklin Sherman, Fortress Press, 1971, pp. 137–306.

4. Historical Analysis (Secondary Sources)​

For further verification of how these sources are interpreted by historians:

• William L. Shirer: In The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich (1960), Shirer dedicates a section to "The Persecution of the Christian Churches" and details how the Nazis utilized Luther’s writings.
• Richard Steigmann-Gall: In The Holy Reich: Nazi Conceptions of Christianity, 1919–1945 (2003), he documents the specific theological appropriation of Luther by Nazi leaders.
• Diarmaid MacCulloch: In Reformation: Europe’s House Divided 1490–1700 (2003), he analyzes the direct line from Luther’s 1543 tract to the events of Kristallnacht.

Unfortunately, hatred of the Jews was one of Luther's great failings. Calvin's failing was his intolerance of those who disagreed with him, to the point of executing his opponents.
All this should cause to pause and examine our own prejudices in the presence of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Churchgoer]

unfortunately, hatred of any one based on their ethnic or their faith is no good.

Our job is not to convert people, if they refuse to accept Jesus as Lord and savior, just shake off the dirt on shoes and move on.

Don't become one of them either.

 

[Beekeeper]

You can stick to your Amillennialism if you wish, and I'll stick with my Historic Premillennialism. Be Blessed.

Historic Amillennialism, Premillennialism, and Postmillennialism are all Jesus based theologies, and we should not attack each other over honest attempts to understand the book.
Futurist Premillennialism however, is a politics based theology.
It is deserving of our hostility.

 

[Aussie52]

I would not send all 'futurists' to Hell. There are two types of futurists, the moderate and the extreme. The extreme are the dispensationalists, who are usually Christian Zionists, and as you say, political.
The moderate follow the example of late George Eldon Ladd and are historic premillennialists and take a reasonable futurist take on the book of Revelation and the events leading up to and including the second coming of Christ.

 

[dkontner]

1 Corinthians 11​

19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Find a speech where Hitler uses his views.

Read his sermons...

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Yeah, a lot of people I have noticed think there is salvation just for being a Jew, seeing two paths to salvation for two groups

No one here has said that.

 

[Beekeeper]

I would not send all 'futurists' to Hell. There are two types of futurists, the moderate and the extreme. The extreme are the dispensationalists, who are usually Christian Zionists, and as you say, political.
The moderate follow the example of late George Eldon Ladd and are historic premillennialists and take a reasonable futurist take on the book of Revelation and the events leading up to and including the second coming of Christ.

I believe that there is a tribulation, a final battle, the second coming of Jesus, and an eternity in the direct presence of God all still to come, making me a "futurist" of a sort too.
Yes, it is the Scofield-dispensationalist tradition to which I refer.

My understanding of the book of Revelations changed a lot after I realized that John wrote it shortly before the destruction of Jerusalem.
There must be some here who think it was written in the AD 90s.
I will get into that subject if anyone shows interest.

 

[2ndTimeIsTheCharm]

unfortunately, hatred of any one based on their ethnic or their faith is no good.

Our job is not to convert people, if they refuse to accept Jesus as Lord and savior, just shake off the dirt on shoes and move on.

Don't become one of them either.

I actually met a racist at church. She hated me because I wasn't white. So I'm standing there in amazement as she lifted her hands up to the Lord with her eyes closed in ecstatic worship during the worship portion of the service. ??? *Shrug*

How can she love God when she doesn't love me, a sister in Christ, for not being white? Oh well. I took Corrie ten Boom's example, forgave her in my heart, and let her be. It's up to God to set her straight.

 

[mailmandan]

I actually met a racist at church. She hated me because I wasn't white. So I'm standing there in amazement as she lifted her hands up to the Lord with her eyes closed in ecstatic worship during the worship portion of the service. ??? *Shrug*

How can she love God when she doesn't love me, a sister in Christ, for not being white? Oh well. I took Corrie ten Boom's example, forgave her in my heart, and let her be. It's up to God to set her straight.

1 John 2:9 - Anyone who claims to be in the light but hates a brother or sister is still in the darkness. 10 Anyone who loves their brother and sister lives in the light, and there is nothing in them to make them stumble. 11 But anyone who hates a brother or sister is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness. They do not know where they are going, because the darkness has blinded them.

 

[Churchgoer]

I actually met a racist at church. She hated me because I wasn't white. So I'm standing there in amazement as she lifted her hands up to the Lord with her eyes closed in ecstatic worship during the worship portion of the service. ??? *Shrug*

How can she love God when she doesn't love me, a sister in Christ, for not being white? Oh well. I took Corrie ten Boom's example, forgave her in my heart, and let her be. It's up to God to set her straight.

when you use "racist" and "hate", can you give evidence to define that word?

for example Jesus told us to love God and "hate" our family, Jesus meant to love our family 2nd.

If I can be someone s 2nd place in love, as definition of "hate", I am totally good with that. Yeah God 1st.

 

[2Christ]

We are in it now.
Jesus did not take a break from being the king.

Ho can this be? where is Christ did he already appear and we cant see him?

This is another "hear something but see something else" occurrence in Revelation.

In chapter 21 we have this account:

9Then one of the seven angels who had the seven bowls filled with the seven last plagues came to me and talked with me, saying, “Come, I will show you the bride, the Lamb’s wife.”

So, John hears "I will show you the Lamb's wife". One would expect to see a woman.
Instead, this is what he sees:

10And he carried me away in the Spirit

This is a clue that John will see something spiritual not something natural. So everything that follows has a spiritual meaning...

to a great and high mountain, and showed me the great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God, 11having the glory of God. Her light was like a most precious stone, like a jasper stone, clear as crystal. 12Also she had a great and high wall with twelve gates, and twelve angels at the gates, and names written on them, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel: 13three gates on the east, three gates on the north, three gates on the south, and three gates on the west.

This is the holy Jerusalem. This is the Bride, the Lamb's wife.

I don't have time to unpack this (it would take pages) but notice this portion a bit later:

"And he showed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding from the throne of God and of the Lamb."

This should cue you into something Jesus said earlier:

"He who believes in Me, as the Scripture has said, out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.”

In short, we should not expect a city like New York city coming out of heaven with its buildings, roads, etc. This city is the collection of saints aligned to the standards and glory of Christ. A "city" after all, may include no buildings. It should be understood to be people who live by the same order. Here, in New Jerusalem, the order originates from the Head: the Lord Christ Jesus.

most of what you say is not from scripture but from your own ignorance. YES !!! there will be a new Jerusalem coming Down from Heaven but that is later , after the millennial Kingdom that will start on Christ's return and after the last rebellion from satan where if will be thrown in the lake of fire with all the deceived angels and Men who do not believe or do God's will.