Was Judas Iscariot saved, or was he not?

[DavidLamb]

The Mishnah and Talmud indicate that there was controversy over the question of the validity of the Heliopolis temple. The DSS indicate that it included pagan aspects. If a Jewish temple with pagan aspects was even considered as possibly valid in the late 1st century BCE or early 1st CE, then we do not understand 1st century concepts of deity.

Now it is fine to proclaim that Judaism in the 1st century was purely monotheistic, but when the evidence suggests otherwise it is good to tread carefully with assertions.

But the context of our immediate discussion was the deity of Christ. GodisGood had written:

"In the Old Testament, we have seen how God the Father is fully and eternally God at all times.
How can we see this in the Lord Jesus at all times?"

I replied that we see His deity in passages such as John 1.

You seem to be saying that some first century Jews had begun to include pagan aspects into deity. But surely John wasn't referring to such pagan aspects when he wrote:

(Joh 1:1-3 NKJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

 

[Godsgood]

We see the deity of the Son in passages such as John 1.

Yes, there are indeed many passages that show that Jesus is God.

But what about the passages that seem to show that He is not God? For example, what He said to the rich young ruler?
Why didn't Jesus accept being called 'good'? He said that only God is good and no one else. Shouldn't He have said, 'Yes, I am good, and God is good too'?
LUKE 18:18-19
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

 

[Dino246]

Yes, there are indeed many passages that show that Jesus is God.

But what about the passages that seem to show that He is not God? For example, what He said to the rich young ruler?
Why didn't Jesus accept being called 'good'? He said that only God is good and no one else. Shouldn't He have said, 'Yes, I am good, and God is good too'?
LUKE 18:18-19
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

I have explained this to you. Jesus did not say, “I am not good.” He questioned the ruler and affirmed God’s goodness. His point was not a statement about God’s nature, but about God’s uniqueness.

 

[Godsgood]

I think you are making too much of Patrick's illustration. I dd say that it is not a perfect illustration of the Trinity. But the shamrock leaf is one leaf yet has three parts.

I am not sure why you are talking about heads and bodies with regard to God. God is a spiritual being. Yes, Jesus Christ took human flesh at His incarnation, but God the Father has no physical body, nor does the Holy Spirit.

You ask me to describe how the three are one. I would say that it is beyond what a mere human being is able to do. All I can do is to point to Scripture. Jesus Christ said:

(Joh 10:30 NKJV) "I and My Father are one."

Peter, speaking to Ananias, equated lying to the Holy Spirit to lying to God:

(Act 5:3-4 NKJV) But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God."

(Joh 10:30 NKJV) "I and My Father are one."

I have another question about the statement you mentioned where the Lord Jesus said, 'I and the Father are one.'
The Lord also said this to Philip in response to Philip's question.
It seems to have a similar meaning to what the Lord said to Philip when Philip asked Him to show them God the Father.
JOHN 14:8-9
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

If we relate Jesus' statement, 'I and my Father are one,' to His response to Philip, what do you understand from it?

 

[DavidLamb]

Yes, there are indeed many passages that show that Jesus is God.

But what about the passages that seem to show that He is not God? For example, what He said to the rich young ruler?
Why didn't Jesus accept being called 'good'? He said that only God is good and no one else. Shouldn't He have said, 'Yes, I am good, and God is good too'?
LUKE 18:18-19
18 And a certain ruler asked him, saying, Good Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
19 And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

I would say that Jesus, as fully God, knew the heart of the rich young ruler, and knew that the young man did not believe Jesus to be God in the flesh. Jesus asked the question to show the ruler that he needed to go further, from calling Jesus good, to recognising Him as God.

 

[DavidLamb]

(Joh 10:30 NKJV) "I and My Father are one."

I have another question about the statement you mentioned where the Lord Jesus said, 'I and the Father are one.'
The Lord also said this to Philip in response to Philip's question.
It seems to have a similar meaning to what the Lord said to Philip when Philip asked Him to show them God the Father.
JOHN 14:8-9
8 Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

If we relate Jesus' statement, 'I and my Father are one,' to His response to Philip, what do you understand from it?

Well, Jesus explained to Philip that seeing Him (Jesus) is the same as seeing the Father, thus showing the closest of bonds between Jesus Christ and Hid heavenly Father. If, when I was a boy, a schoolfriend had asked my what my dad was like, I wouldn't have been able to say, "You've seen me, so that shows you what my dad is like." Yes, I was tall like my dad, but there were many ways in which he and I were different. Jesus could say it, though, because both He and the Father are fully God.

 

[Godsgood]

Well, Jesus explained to Philip that seeing Him (Jesus) is the same as seeing the Father, thus showing the closest of bonds between Jesus Christ and Hid heavenly Father. If, when I was a boy, a schoolfriend had asked my what my dad was like, I wouldn't have been able to say, "You've seen me, so that shows you what my dad is like." Yes, I was tall like my dad, but there were many ways in which he and I were different. Jesus could say it, though, because both He and the Father are fully God.

From my understanding of what you said, Jesus and God the Father only look alike. That is why He said to Philip, "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father." Am i right?

Are they just like twins? Is that what you mean?

 

[DavidLamb]

From my understanding of what you said, Jesus and God the Father only look alike. That is why He said to Philip, "If you have seen Me, you have seen the Father." Am i right?

No. The Father is a spiritual Being. So is the Son (Jesus), but He took on human flesh. It wasn't that Jesus physically looked like His Father, but that spiritually they were alike, and this showed in the way Jesus lived while here on earth.

 

[Godsgood]

We see the deity of the Son in passages such as John 1.

If the Lord Jesus is fully and eternally God, just like the Father, why does He not know when the end of the world will be?
MATTHEW 24:3 & 36
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

 

[Godsgood]

No. The Father is a spiritual Being. So is the Son (Jesus), but He took on human flesh. It wasn't that Jesus physically looked like His Father, but that spiritually they were alike, and this showed in the way Jesus lived while here on earth.

but that spiritually they were alike, and this showed in the way Jesus lived while here on earth.
I do not think I see the connection between this and Philip’s question to the Lord. Philip’s request was that he wanted to see God the Father with his naked eyes.
That is why his request was, “Show us the Father.
The Lord Jesus’ answer was, “If you have seen Me, you have seen My Father.”

 

[DavidLamb]

If the Lord Jesus is fully and eternally God, just like the Father, why does He not know when the end of the world will be?
MATTHEW 24:3 & 36
3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?
36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.

There were various aspects of His deity that the Son laid aside while He was here on earth. As God, He is everywhere, but as Man, He needed to go from one place to another (though His power was not limited - think of how He healed the centurion's servant without going to the centurion's house.) The knowledge of "that day and hour" was another aspect of His deity that He had laid aside while here on earth.

 

[DavidLamb]

but that spiritually they were alike, and this showed in the way Jesus lived while here on earth.
I do not think I see the connection between this and Philip’s question to the Lord. Philip’s request was that he wanted to see God the Father with his naked eyes.
That is why his request was, “Show us the Father.
The Lord Jesus’ answer was, “If you have seen Me, you have seen My Father.”

So what are you saying, that Jesus meant that like Him, the Father has a physical body?

 

[Dino246]

but that spiritually they were alike, and this showed in the way Jesus lived while here on earth.
I do not think I see the connection between this and Philip’s question to the Lord. Philip’s request was that he wanted to see God the Father with his naked eyes.
That is why his request was, “Show us the Father.
The Lord Jesus’ answer was, “If you have seen Me, you have seen My Father.”

The text does not say that Philip wanted to see the Father with his eyes. Scripture tells us that no one has seen God. All appearances of God are appearances of Jesus.

 

[Mem]

I would say that Jesus, as fully God, knew the heart of the rich young ruler, and knew that the young man did not believe Jesus to be God in the flesh. Jesus asked the question to show the ruler that he needed to go further, from calling Jesus good, to recognising Him as God.

Good point. In claiming that he had followed the law all of his life, the rich young ruler was effectively claiming that he had been following God, yet he went away from Jesus, who is good as God, uniquely, is. And he went away sad, as if it was not good to follow Jesus, and though there was nothing more of God's goodness except for what he'd personally acquired for himself.

 

[Mem]

Come to think of it, the rich young ruler and Judas have that in common. Judas stopped short of comprehending the goodness of God in Christ Jesus, and despaired, in spite of Jesus calling him friend.

 

[rewriter]

But the context of our immediate discussion was the deity of Christ. GodisGood had written:

"In the Old Testament, we have seen how God the Father is fully and eternally God at all times.
How can we see this in the Lord Jesus at all times?"

I replied that we see His deity in passages such as John 1.

You seem to be saying that some first century Jews had begun to include pagan aspects into deity. But surely John wasn't referring to such pagan aspects when he wrote:

(Joh 1:1-3 NKJV) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.

How familiar are you with classical literature, I suspect not very. But let me ask you a question about some far more recent things. John Wayne's "McClintock" is a movie about a strong-willed wife in the American west. This is quite plausible and could be regarded as basically historical if one was so inclined, but is it also possible to see an earlier literary work behind the story line? Or what about West Side Story? Take away the song and dance numbers and it could fit with mid-20th century New York, a native-born youth gang versus a Porte Rican one, and a romantic entanglement across the cultural lines. Of course, one might also see close parallels with an earlier literary work here also. Might there be an earlier literary work largely ignored behind John's gospel? Early Christian commentators saw such and some even in the 20th century made observations about some relatively obscure connections. But that could not possibly influence how things were expressed could it? Why that could imply that there is a lot about the NT that we do not realize or recognize and that clearly cannot be, can it.

 

[Godsgood]

There were various aspects of His deity that the Son laid aside while He was here on earth. As God, He is everywhere, but as Man, He needed to go from one place to another (though His power was not limited - think of how He healed the centurion's servant without going to the centurion's house.) The knowledge of "that day and hour" was another aspect of His deity that He had laid aside while here on earth.

It doesn't seem to me that whenever people asked Him a question, He could simply choose to set aside His deity or not, depending on whether He wanted to answer or withhold the answer. The Lord was well known by His disciples. They did not ask Him questions casually or without reason.

 

[Godsgood]

So what are you saying, that Jesus meant that like Him, the Father has a physical body?

but that spiritually they were alike, and this showed in the way Jesus lived while here on earth.
The disciples were already aware of the Lord's relationship with the Father because
He frequently spoke to them about it.
They did not keep asking Him about His mission. Rather, Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us."
JOHN 4:34
34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.


So what are you saying, that Jesus meant that like Him, the Father has a physical body?
About your question, who do you want to answer it? Me, or God?

 

[Godsgood]

If they believe on the Lord Jesus Christ as their Saviour, I think they probably are saved, despite having strange views of the Godhead. I have never met any Oneness believers, so I can't be certain.

Your understanding of the Lord Jesus is different from theirs.
They also have a different understanding of who the Lord Jesus is.

Can we really say that people with different views about the nature of God can both be right?
Isn't God the One who teaches the truth?
Would He teach different and conflicting views about Himself?
If God is the source of truth, why would He lead people to hold contradictory beliefs about His own nature?

Can people who teach different doctrines truly be considered born again and to have the same faith?

 

[DavidLamb]

but that spiritually they were alike, and this showed in the way Jesus lived while here on earth.
The disciples were already aware of the Lord's relationship with the Father because
He frequently spoke to them about it.
They did not keep asking Him about His mission. Rather, Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us."
JOHN 4:34
34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.

Of course He had told them many times about His relationship with the Father, but just as when He told them several times that He would be crucified and rise again, they were slow to learn, as we see from John 12:16 (NKJV):

At first his disciples didn't understand these things. However, when Jesus had been glorified, they remembered that these things had been written about him and that people had done these things to him.

So what are you saying, that Jesus meant that like Him, the Father has a physical body?
About your question, who do you want to answer it? Me, or God?

I am asking you, because it was you that said, or at least implied, that God the Father has a physical body.