Does Hebrews 10 say if we willfully sin after being saved there is no more forgiveness?
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Similarly, a genuine believer can incur terrible divine discipline—even premature physical death—without becoming eternally unsaved.
Hebrews 10:14 has already settled the believer’s standing
The most destructive feature of the “lost salvation” interpretation is that it contradicts the declaration immediately preceding the warning:
The text does not say:
It says perfected forever by one offering.
Moreover:
- Hebrews 10:10 says believers were sanctified through Christ’s once-for-all offering.
- Hebrews 10:12 says Messiah offered one sacrifice for sins forever.
- Hebrews 10:17 says their sins are remembered no more.
- Hebrews 10:18 says no additional offering is necessary.
- Hebrews 10:22 says their hearts have been cleansed.
- Hebrews 10:39 distinguishes the readers from those who finally draw back into destruction.
The warning must be interpreted consistently with those explicit affirmations—not used to erase them.
Fruchtenbaum’s likely chronological setting
Arnold Fruchtenbaum places Hebrews within the final years before the catastrophe of A.D. 70. Jewish believers were experiencing persecution and were tempted to avoid it by abandoning their identification with Messiah and returning to the security of traditional Judaism.
Therefore, a reasonable working date is:
That places Hebrews near the beginning of the Jewish revolt against Rome and only a few years before Jerusalem’s destruction. One traditional reconstruction likewise places the letter after the death of James around A.D. 62, but before the Jewish War intensified around A.D. 67.
This setting is crucial for interpreting Hebrews 6 and 10. The warnings were not abstract theological puzzles about a Christian accidentally losing eternal life. They were urgent warnings to Jewish believers:
You fail to realize that we, you and everybody else owe the Jews a debt of gratitude that can never be adequately repaid?
Tragic, but not unexpected in these "latter days".
Context is King....26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Bible Gateway passage: Hebrews 10 - English Standard Version
Christ's Sacrifice Once for All - For since the law has but a shadow of the good things to come instead of the true form of these realities, it can never, by the same sacrifices that are continually offered every year, make perfect those who draw near. Otherwise, would they not have ceased to be...www.biblegateway.com
Same as the title.. If this is how you read it, how do you reconcile what Paul describes as his on going struggle with sin in romans 7?
14 For we know that the law is spiritual, but I am of the flesh, sold under sin. 15 For I do not understand my own actions. For I do not do what I want, but I do the very thing I hate. 16 Now if I do what I do not want, I agree with the law, that it is good. 17 So now it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me. 18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is right, but not the ability to carry it out. 19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want, it is no longer I who do it, but sin that dwells within me.
21 So I find it to be a law that when I want to do right, evil lies close at hand. 22 For I delight in the law of God, in my inner being, 23 but I see in my members another law waging war against the law of my mind and making me captive to the law of sin that dwells in my members. 24 Wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself serve the law of God with my mind, but with my flesh I serve the law of sin.
Bible Gateway passage: Romans 7 - English Standard Version
Released from the Law - Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage...
WHO is this letter addressed to?
WHEN was the Letter written? (What was going on historically)
WHAT outside "common knowledge" facts were pertinent to understanding this letter?
WHY would the author write what he wrote if it was already commonly known information?
IOW WHY did the author feel the need to write and spend a bunch of money by writing if it wasn't really necessary?
Verse 29 says that they were sanctified by the blood but are no longer, now they receive a punishment worse than death and Christ's sacrifice is of no use to them anymore. Just like in Galatians those who wanted to be justified by the law of Moses.
Well, this is gonna be a fruitless debate as the OSAS debate always is. If you cant see that in the text there is no help available. In what world is a punishment worse than death someone still being saved? In what world are you saved if you have no sacrifice for your sins, the one and only sacrifice, which is Christ's. In what world is someone who tramples the blood of the covenant by which He was sanctified still saved?
We're gonna have to disagree on that one. I just cannot see OSAS in the Bible, not at all. All the proof texts are extremely easy to deal with and many times are like calvinist proof texts, they are refuted by the same book or even chapter they are quoted from. Easy work. American gospel, flee from it.
Was Judas taken from Jesus' hand or was he never saved? What if salvation doesn't happen when you give your self to Christ but when Jesus judges you to be saved? Like with Judas he was not judged till the night of his betrayal, and wasn't found guiltless. Meaning no one took Judas out of Jesus' hand. Judas never belong to Jesus much like the men in mat 7 who cry out "Lord, Lord" and Jesus Says away from me evil doers, I never knew you." Meaning despite their efforts in being a follower of Christ Jesus judges them as being evil.
My question asks what if those in hebrews 10, are like Judas and/or the men Jesus talks about in mat 7? No one is being taken because they never belonged to Jesus?
Eternal security is not TULIP, TULIP states believers will "persevere" whatever that means.
Punishment is not about the afterlife.
Justified is justified, and no scripture ever states that God declares a man guilty after he had been declared innocent/justified by God
So, no it is not really in the Bible.
Honestly, if you cannot sort out the fact of the matter so clearly declared in Hebrews 10 (IFAS - if saved always saved) from those last few posts that I offered, you are pretty much a hopeless case.
The actual content of the chapter is boilerplate confirmation of same.
I'll keep this short since this issue,and my bpiv took a lot of heat in the Judas thread already.
Judas was saved.
Answer this. How would Jesus have died for the sins of the world otherwise? Were it not for Judas,possessed by Satan twice at key moments so to insure Jesus was taken into custody so to die on the cross.
Judas,as himself,free of Satan after,realized what happened. Repented. Returned the silver,and hanged himself. " Cursed is anyone hanged on a tree"
Jesus too was hanged on a tree for the world's sins to take upon himself there. Father forgive them fof they know not what they do.
That would include Judas. Being possessed,he did not do those things. Satan did.
So,in point of fact, Judas was the greatest Apostle.
"apóstolos, which literally means "one who is sent out". It primarily refers to an envoy."
OK,technically, it would be Satan in the body of Judas.
Otherwise, Jesus would not have been identified in the garden.
(Notice? The fall of man occurred in a garden. The redemption of man began in a garden.)
And Jesus ,thus identified,would not be tried and crucified as the second Adam. The last unblemished sacrificial lamb for the sins of the world.
That world that is still sinning.
No matter how many lives lost,drowned,burned,
crucified, Sin remains the constant here.
Proverbs 19:21
1 Timothy 4:10 (OJB) For to this end we labor and strive at the melachah (task), because we have set tikvateynu in the EL CHAI [YEHOSHUA 3:10] who is Moshi’a (Savior) of kol Bnei Adam, that is, the ma’aminim [in Moshiach Adoneinu].
(CJB)10 (indeed, it is for this that we toil and strive): we have our hope set on a living God who is the deliverer of all humanity, especially of those who trust.
NIV) 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
OK,not so short. Oops.
I have read it, I am just convinced. What Paul says at verse 39 does in no way get rid of the warning and if you werent commited to this belief system you could see it. Paul has no idea who is going to persevere and who isnt going to draw back.
Demas was his brother, then later on in his ministry many people left him high and dry and fell in love with the world. Apostasy is real. And yeah I know it is a fruitless debate, have a good one I will leave it at this. I could say the same thing mate, you are the hopeless one, that is the nature of these debates. Completely fruitless and probably even sinful if taken too far.
But I urge everyone to take a look at Church history and see how western this belief is. Nobody believed OSAS, TULIP or any of these things in the early Church fathers, that is remarkable. Where were all these new doctrines for centuries? Why didn't anyone see it the way it is being taught today?
There is a logical fallacy in this argument that assumes that if something is a more recent discovery it is not true.
This is logically fallacious.
Man doctrines have developed over time as the contents of scripture have been fleshed out.
I'd agree if it wasn't for such a long time. I just don't see it in Scriptures is what im saying and neither did they. Jesus said He will build His Church and the gates of hell will not prevail and that the Holy Spirit would lead into all truth.
Lol. Look man, practically EVERYBODY abandoned Paul in 2 Timothy. You are saying none of them are saved?
And John Mark likewise abandoned Paul. You are saying that he is not saved either?
“For Demas hath forsaken me, having loved this present world, and is departed unto Thessalonica; Crescens to Galatia, Titus unto Dalmatia. Only Luke is with me.”
— 2 Timothy 4:10–11, KJV
Paul then describes an even broader abandonment at his first legal defense:
“At my first answer no man stood with me, but all men forsook me.”
— 2 Timothy 4:16
John Mark left Paul and Barnabas during the first missionary journey:
“And John departing from them returned to Jerusalem.”
— Acts 13:13, KJV
Paul later regarded this as a serious abandonment:
“Paul thought not good to take him with them, who departed from them from Pamphylia, and went not with them to the work.”
— Acts 15:38, KJV
Hebrews 10 is written as a persuasive letter to those most likely tempted to return to the law, with provisions for persuasion of those that were never of the law that are tempted into adopting it. Verse 29 offers a hypothetical argument comparing the consequences of the rejection of the law and/or, if even only do so indirectly by the inability to keep it, to the rejection of that which is greater than the law, which is the mercy and grace of God. In asking, "how much more is one deserving...?" the intended emphasis is not as much focused on the consequence than it is on the degree of warrant for, but that does not necessitate any surety in the service of it (if you consider the capacity of God's mercy and grace with all seriousness) but, rather, the synopsis of the argument is that what you venture to return to has less chance of saving you than that which you would abandon in doing so and, in fact, effectively invites an elevated level of peril.
Well "Saved is Saved" is scriptural and the worthy walk begins with that reality.
I will just leave it there, but you limit access to much of the riches God gives by denying this core doctrine.
It is an open gospel account Eg; the book of matthew.
Historically mid 60s AD. The Church Fathers/Apostle were being systematically hunted and martyred. There was an urgency to have a first hand account of the Gospel
It depends on which denomination you subscribe to. Different denominations will focus on on different things. Truthfully, one does not need to approach this letter like an agnostic believer (Seeking hidden knowledge) Mat 7's message is self contained.
Because as previously stated a first hand eye witness account was needed to frame out who Jesus was, some of the things He did plus teach and to communicate the gospel.
Because as previously stated a first hand eye witness account was needed to frame out who Jesus was, some of the things He did, plus teach and to communicate the gospel.
Great.. Just need some book chapter and verse to vet that claim.
... Are you being serious? Judas did not personally murder Jesus by his own hand. it was not like Jesus had a personal force field around him and judas and the other disciple where allowed into the force field, and judas snuck in with a knife and killed Jesus because no one else could get to Him. Although that would have been an interesting episode of "the chosen" if that had happened.
The temple priests demanded that Jesus be killed. They where plotting to simply capture him the next time He popped up preaching on temple grounds. In fact if they caught Him on temple grounds they would not have needed the trial or the romans. They could have simply picked up rocks and stoned Him to death. (they tried this very thing earlier after palm sunday but He escaped as it was not His time yet..) All Jesus needed to do was show up and not run away this time as he would have known it was His time, then turned Himself in.
Judas turning Jesus over to the priests the night before made things more difficult because they did not have the right to execute off temple grounds for breaking the law. Rome would not allow it. This is why the paraded Jesus to Pilate and Herod trying to get an execution order.
Again, all Jesus need do was turn Himself in, or send out a loyal disciple and tell the priests to pick Jesus up at a certain time and place. Plus satan can not possess someone that belongs to God. Jesus says one's "house" must be empty to receive an evil spirit. Meaning if Jesuad was indewelt by the Holy Spirit as where the others, Satan could not have taken possession of him.
yes, but again... Satan could not have entered Judas if Judas belong to Christ/Had the Holy Spirit. Jesus talks about this in mat 12's parable of the empty house:
43 “When an unclean spirit goes out of a man, it passes through dry places seeking rest, but finds none. 44 Then it says, ‘I will return to my house from which I came.’ And when it comes, it finds it empty, swept, and put in order. 45 Then it goes and brings with itself seven other spirits more evil than itself, and they enter and dwell there. And the last state of that man is worse than the first. So shall it be also with this evil generation.”
Jesus was talking about the romans who executed Him.
Luke 23: 33 And when they came to the place that is called The Skull, there they crucified him, and the criminals, one on his right and one on his left. 34 And Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they know not what they do.” And they cast lots to divide his garments.
Jesus in context was asking God to forgive those who crucified Him and gambled for His garments.
Actually, no it does not. as Jesus condemned Judas/The man who would betray Him:
mat 26: 23 He answered, “He who has dipped his hand in the dish with me will betray me. 24 The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born.” 25 Judas, who would betray him, answered, “Is it I, Rabbi?” He said to him, “You have said so.”
...
But Judas never made it to apostleship. He died as a disciple/student. The disciples where not officially made Apostle till the Great Commission Jesus gave in Mat 28 where he "send out" the Apostles Just before He ascended into Heaven. Judas Killed Himself days before this event.
Which could not have happened if he belonged to Christ. Judas' "house" was swept up and put in order, but empty/No Holy Spirit, and a bigger more evil demon/Satan himself took control.
You act like Jesus did not have the power inclination or ability to simply walk up to the temple and turn Himself in. Judas betrayed Jesus for Literally nothing.. Do you know how they say that in the movie "Raiders of the lost Ark." Indiana Jones make no impact or contribution to the movie at all? Because with or without him they over all story line would play out the same.
Judas is the Indiana Jones of the Gospel. Whether Judas was a good man or an evil devil possessed scumbag, the end result of Jesus dying on the cross would have been the same.
Irrelevant.
irrelevant. Jesus whether betrayed or surrendered Himself would have made the same sacrifice.
Irrelevant. The question asked was how does hebrews 10 get reconciled with Romans 7:14 forward?
Strawman argument. This does not address anything I had to say.No matter how many lives lost,drowned,burned,
crucified, Sin remains the constant here.
Proverbs 19:21
1 Timothy 4:10 (OJB) For to this end we labor and strive at the melachah (task), because we have set tikvateynu in the EL CHAI [YEHOSHUA 3:10] who is Moshi’a (Savior) of kol Bnei Adam, that is, the ma’aminim [in Moshiach Adoneinu].
(CJB)10 (indeed, it is for this that we toil and strive): we have our hope set on a living God who is the deliverer of all humanity, especially of those who trust.
NIV) 10 That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.
OK,not so short. Oops.
and if salvation is not a work? Meaning it is not something you can obtain by doing certain deeds, like following plans of salvation, taking sacerments, praying a certain ritualistic prayer/sinner prayer, being baptized , or any of the number of things we do to be saved.. Salvation can not be earned by doing any of those things like Jesus points out in mat 7. In Mat 7 Jesus tells us there will be many "on that day" (Day of Judgement where/when Jesus decides who is saved and who is not.) that will call out to Him thinking they where saved and listing out all of the different things they did to be 'saved' and Jesus will plainly say away from me evil doer I never knew you.Well "Saved is Saved" is scriptural and the worthy walk begins with that reality.
I will just leave it there, but you limit access to much of the riches God gives by denying this core doctrine.
While saved is saved and you can never loose your salvation. The bottom line is you are not saved by your works: Prayers, confessions of faith, confirmations, sacraments, confessions baptisms or any of the other rites, rituals or creeds we partake in. Salvation is a gift from God so no man can boast about what he has done to be saved. Meaning because we are not saved till Jesus says we are "On that day." Any time before this we can be lost. This is why Paul compares this life to a long distance race, and we must stay diligent to the end, and not quit along the way..