Calvinism is Gospel !

[Bible_Locket]

Grace and peace.

I don't think those who assail Christians here because they assume we are Calvinists know any such thing.

 

[Genez]

You all assume anyone quote what Jesus says,God calls us to him,no one can come to him unless this occurs, are Calvinists.

Most of you who do this know nothing about Calvinism. Especially that John Calvin did not want his teachings to carry his namesake. Or that Calvin did not originate the doctrine.

Jesus did.Followed by others well before John.

There is a need for some historical background for why Jesus said....

"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; ​

and I will raise him up at the last day" John 6:44​

Now, what brought that on???
Why did Jesus have to say that God needs to draw them?
Who was He addressing, and why?

He was addressing legalistic, religious Jews, whom the Pharisees had brainwashed into believing that they only needed to do many works to be saved.

Jesus' answer was?

Not by works!
God must draw you to Himself. Then, you can believe and be saved.

That was what was going on.

And, was why Jesus showed such disdain for the Pharisees!

 

[brightfame52]

Now it is true that the Gospel is to be preached, or proclaimed to all, but its also just as true that it should be made clear that Christs atoning death wasn't for all, but specifically for His Sheep Jn 10 or His Church Eph 5 and that He accomplished salvation for them, meaning He saved them from their sins.51

 

[Journey_man]

Did she choose evil continuously... you stated clearly that humans can only do evil continuously?

Yes, natural or unconverted people cannot do any good at all. Even their best works are sinful

 

[Journey_man]

No,it's not.
Noah was a drunk. He planted a vineyard after the flood. Scripture reports one time when he became drunk. Genesis 9.

It isn't a sin to drink alcohol. It is a sin to get drunk. I e reporting of his drunkenness. But,Noah had a whole vineyard of wine stock.

Yet 2Peter 2 tells us,Noah was a preacher of righteousness.

Before Noah there was Enoch. Jude 1.

Did you hear about Sodom and Gomorrah?
God told Abraham,after many negotiations on numbers, he would spare the cities if he found ten righteous ones among them.
Genesis 18

He did not. And yet, Lot was spared Gods wrath after proving himself unrighteous!

When Lot offered his virgin daughters to the men of Sodom. Because they first insisted Lot release the two visitors to his house,angels unbeknownst to them,so they could be gang raped by the men of Sodom. ("to know" them was biblical language for, have sex with. As in, Adam knew his wife and beget...)

God's spirit was in the world. Enoch and Noah ministered, the Greek κῆρυξ ,"kēryx" =herald.
To proclaim as a herald, κηρύσσω = kēryssō.

Yer,again,unless God's spirit ,which was upon the Earth then, as we read of Enoch in Genesis 5.
Genesis 6, God says his spirit will not strive with man forever. Meaning in part,God had influence upon humans. But forever on Earth was not to be. So he limited our days.

The New Testament tells us,unless God unhardens the heart,people cannot understand the things of God while in their natural mind. Because these things are spiritually discerned.

So,to your observation of people's drowned during the deluge,numbers unknown, that was God's judgement choice. No one could come to understand the things of God on their own. They are spiritually discerned.

And by the way, Sodom and Gomorrah occurred long after the flood!

To answer your question toward me personally.
I am made in the image and likeness of God. Not Satan.

I was raised by good people who instilled morality, an understanding of integrity,virtue and honor. They were Christians. As were their parents before them.
I was Baptized when I was 17.

We are saved by grace. Not of ourselves so that none shall boast. No one comes to Christ unless the Father leads them.

Therefore, I did not do evil constantly. As you contend is the fate of us all before Salvation.

If you did so, you and your family have my deepest sympathies.

Gods Word reveals the awful truth that nobody does good, no not even one.

"None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." Romans (3:10-12)

The unbeliever's moral inability to do good—good that may be credited to his account by way of righteousness—means that there is only one possible way of salvation: it must come from outside himself. God alone can provide new life where there is inability and blindness. We need a spiritual rebirth, one that God alone can provide.

 

[Journey_man]

But what about the two calls which I asked about? I've looked and I haven't found biblical evidence for them.

Quote: "Hebrews 6:4-6 says nothing about a "believer falling away"

The Hebrews verse talks about exactly that, people who fall away from God. They were enlightened and shared in the Spirit, then fell away.

Also why exhort someone to remain steadfast if it's impossible to fall away? Seems like a wasted exhortation to me... Actually the Bible tells us to persevere several times. A complete waste of time for believers who couldn't possibly not persevere as it's their predestination.

Yes there are two aspects of the gospel call - the general (external) call and the effectual (internal) call. The message proclaimed outwardly is the same for everyone, but the Holy Spirit applies it differently to the elect and unbelievers

The General (External) Call is for all people, it is preached outwardly to both the elect and unbelievers without distinction.
It's an honest invitation to repent and believe in Christ, commanding all people everywhere to turn to God. It announces salvation and holds responsible those who reject it, leaving unbelievers without an excuse on judgment day.
The gospel is resisted by fallen human nature; on its own, no unregenerate person responds positively. No not one.

As for the elect, there's an inward, spiritual operation by the Holy Spirit that accompanies the outward preaching. God actively opens the person's heart and changes their nature, granting them the spiritual life needed to perceive and embrace Christ (such as Lydia in Acts 16:14).

The gospel message is always received and embraced by the elect, it overcomes human resistance and invariably leads to genuine faith and conversion.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes there are two aspects of the gospel call - the general (external) call and the effectual (internal) call. The message proclaimed outwardly is the same for everyone, but the Holy Spirit applies it differently to the elect and unbelievers

The General (External) Call is for all people, it is preached outwardly to both the elect and unbelievers without distinction.
It's an honest invitation to repent and believe in Christ, commanding all people everywhere to turn to God. It announces salvation and holds responsible those who reject it, leaving unbelievers without an excuse on judgment day.
The gospel is resisted by fallen human nature; on its own, no unregenerate person responds positively. No not one.

As for the elect, there's an inward, spiritual operation by the Holy Spirit that accompanies the outward preaching. God actively opens the person's heart and changes their nature, granting them the spiritual life needed to perceive and embrace Christ (such as Lydia in Acts 16:14).

The gospel message is always received and embraced by the elect, it overcomes human resistance and invariably leads to genuine faith and conversion.

1 Thessalonians 2:13.

 

[Journey_man]

That's not true. I don't think you understand the implications of humanity constantly 'doing evil'. People who claim Christ as Savior also do evil..

People need to think before they hand out knee jerk reactions that illustrate some form of indoctrination in the church or some less than benevolent platform on the web, where, we know people who want to know search for knowing.

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You're right in the sense that people of the world are not as evil as they could be, this is because they are currently being restrained by the restrainer (Holy Spirit). But all hell will break lose in the world when the restrainer is removed.

Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?”
Now what does the Word of God say about the heart of man??? yes.
Ephesians 2:1-3: People are dead in trespasses and sins, and by nature objects of God's anger.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes, natural or unconverted people cannot do any good at all. Even their best works are sinful

So then in your view Mary was evil, okay.
I see more clearly each day why this doctrine is labelled with the "h" label.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes there are two aspects of the gospel call - the general (external) call and the effectual (internal) call. The message proclaimed outwardly is the same for everyone, but the Holy Spirit applies it differently to the elect and unbelievers

The General (External) Call is for all people, it is preached outwardly to both the elect and unbelievers without distinction.
It's an honest invitation to repent and believe in Christ, commanding all people everywhere to turn to God. It announces salvation and holds responsible those who reject it, leaving unbelievers without an excuse on judgment day.
The gospel is resisted by fallen human nature; on its own, no unregenerate person responds positively. No not one.

As for the elect, there's an inward, spiritual operation by the Holy Spirit that accompanies the outward preaching. God actively opens the person's heart and changes their nature, granting them the spiritual life needed to perceive and embrace Christ (such as Lydia in Acts 16:14).

The gospel message is always received and embraced by the elect, it overcomes human resistance and invariably leads to genuine faith and conversion.

Actually it is NOT an honest invitation in your doctrine, you just say that but it is not, along with the fact this is once again eisegesis.

 

[pinebeach]

You're right in the sense that people of the world are not as evil as they could be, this is because they are currently being restrained by the restrainer (Holy Spirit). But all hell will break lose in the world when the restrainer is removed.

Jeremiah 17:9 “The heart is deceitful above all things, And desperately wicked; Who can know it?”
Now what does the Word of God say about the heart of man??? yes.
Ephesians 2:1-3: People are dead in trespasses and sins, and by nature objects of God's anger.

The Holy Spirit convicts the world of sin. That's alot of trouble to go to if God is going to just decide for people who will accept His offer of salvation or not.

That's the fine print that Calvinists seem to ignore. Along with everything else that plainly shows that God does not put His Spirit in anyone without them first accepting Christ.

 

[pinebeach]

Now it is true that the Gospel is to be preached, or proclaimed to all, but its also just as true that it should be made clear that Christs atoning death wasn't for all, but specifically for His Sheep Jn 10 or His Church Eph 5 and that He accomplished salvation for them, meaning He saved them from their sins.51

So you think that God choose you to dwell with Him in eternity even though you choose to lie about what is actually given in scripture?

You are deceived and trying very hard to deceive others.

 

[pinebeach]

Yes, natural or unconverted people cannot do any good at all. Even their best works are sinful

Oh I don't know. What about the people who stand at the edge of the world and tell those approaching to be careful and not
fall off the edge?

ALL YOUR WORKS ARE SINFUL!!! READ THE BIBLE. NOTHING WE DO EARNS OR KEEPS SALVATION. I would think you as the good Calvinist you are would know that.

This is the thing. Calvinists constantly trip themselves up and make obvious the heretical and just plain wrong interpretations and machinations they are famous for.

 

[pinebeach]

Gods Word reveals the awful truth that nobody does good, no not even one.

"None is righteous, no, not one; no one understands; no one seeks for God. All have turned aside; together they have become worthless; no one does good, not even one." Romans (3:10-12)

Meaning, that we cannot save ourselves which is God had to solve that problem.

but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Rom. 5:8

The Holy Spirit will draw people to God and convict of sin. He does not enter unbelievers.

 

[brightfame52]

So you think that God choose you to dwell with Him in eternity even though you choose to lie about what is actually given in scripture?

You are deceived and trying very hard to deceive others.

Now it is true that the Gospel is to be preached, or proclaimed to all, but its also just as true that it should be made clear that Christs atoning death wasn't for all, but specifically for His Sheep Jn 10 or His Church Eph 5 and that He accomplished salvation for them, meaning He saved them from their sins.

 

[brightfame52]

Actually it is NOT an honest invitation in your doctrine, you just say that but it is not, along with the fact this is once again eisegesis.

There is no invitation to the non elect for salvation, Christ didn't die for them, The Father never chose them and gave them to Christ, the Spirit will never regenerate them, they were made as vessels of wrath to be fitted for destruction. Rom 9:22

 

[pinebeach]

Now it is true that the Gospel is to be preached, or proclaimed to all, but its also just as true that it should be made clear that Christs atoning death wasn't for all, but specifically for His Sheep Jn 10 or His Church Eph 5 and that He accomplished salvation for them, meaning He saved them from their sins.

To whom shall we make that clear? You treat salvation, God's salation, like some kind of Calvinistic attribute.

Calvinists believe that, at the beginning of time, God selected a limited number of souls to grant salvation and there's nothing any individual person can do during their mortal life to alter their eternal fate. Either you were chosen or you were not chosen, and that's all there is to it.

So, it seems even if you believe, God might say 'not you dunderhead. next'

Calvinism is not Christianity and certainly it is not the gospel.

 

[HeIsHere]

There is no invitation to the non elect for salvation, Christ didn't die for them, The Father never chose them and gave them to Christ, the Spirit will never regenerate them, they were made as vessels of wrath to be fitted for destruction. Rom 9:22

Like I stated you are the one of the few that is completely honest and forthright about your doctrine, I can respect that, even though it grieves me terribly.

 

[pinebeach]

You all assume anyone quote what Jesus says,God calls us to him,no one can come to him unless this occurs, are Calvinists.

Most of you who do this know nothing about Calvinism. Especially that John Calvin did not want his teachings to carry his namesake. Or that Calvin did not originate the doctrine.

Jesus did.Followed by others well before John.

I don't know about the all you target in your little dismissal above (of most of the people in this forum not to mention those in the world who have never heard of you or Calvin, and yet love Jesus.

But, you certainly and few others here, attempt to present the facade of a person who knows things others do not, while you are simply choosing to play make believe mind reader.

If the non-Calvinists here know nothing about Calvinism after 236 pages and 4700 posts, at least half of which are probably from Calvinists or shadow Calvinists, then wouldn't that be the fault of said Calvinists? What are you all doing here if not defending your great leader and the tulip affirmations that we should know nothing about any of it, despite the constant belittling of us while you affirm salvation through the ideals of a man, who, does not even want his name to be remembered?

From whence cometh Calvinism if not from Calvin? Tell us please so we might be as educated as are you and so that we will not be left bearing such ignorance such that we do not see that is all we bandy about.

Jesus did what exactly? Pray tell us that we might share in your doctrine lest we be smited on a pyre set alight...well we may not suffer such a fate, but words have meaning and they have an effect. That may be your only protection. You did not know. At least one of you does though.

 

[brightfame52]

To whom shall we make that clear? You treat salvation, God's salation, like some kind of Calvinistic attribute.

To whom ever you witnessing the truth to. Like Paul said to his hearers Acts 20:26-27

26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27 ;For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

Salvation is according to Gods counsel Eph 1:11

In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: