False teaching by separating Scripture from Scripture
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I have never said a person receives the Holy Ghost in water baptism. Why would I? Scripture consistently distinguishes between water baptism and the receiving of the Holy Ghost.
What I have said is what the biblical record reveals: believers are commanded to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus for the remission of sins (Acts 2:38; Acts 22:16), and God promises that those who believe and obey His gospel will receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. The sequence varies, but in every case, both are presented as essential elements of the NT rebirth, not as competing alternatives or as the same event.
So my position has always been that Scripture presents repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus for remission of sin, and receiving the Holy Ghost as distinct yet inseparable parts of God's New Covenant plan of salvation.
1 John 1:5-9 affirms that if we are committing transgression against God, then we are not walking in the light, and have sin in us.
And if we do transgress, we can repent and be forgiven and cleansed by Jesus Christ.
However, 1 John 1: 8 warns us, that if we transgress and harden our hearts, and say we have no sin to repent of, then we have no hope of forgiveness and cleansing in the blood of the Lamb.
The Lord's sinless perfecting of the saints begins with taking away our sin, and cleansing us from all unrighteousness. Heb {6:1}
1 John 5:8 directly condemns any transgressing believer, that says his sin is taken away by the Lamb of God.
There is no hope for anyone transgressing God's commandments, and also believing he has been made sinless by Jesus Christ.
Enduring temptation to sin not, is not falling to temptation by transgression.
If we have indwelling sin, then the Lamb of God has not taken away our sin. Jhn 1:29
And yes, mature Christians can still have their sin untaken away by Jesus Christ. There have been many testimonies of mature Christians, even after many years of ministry, that repent of all their transgressions. They now understand that maturity in religion, does not guarantee being born into the kingdom of God. Pro 13:15
If any man repents and is regenerated with a new nature, then the old corrupt lust of the heart is taken away, and we are delivered from our old sins and trespasses. 2 Peter 1:3 Rom 3:24
The flesh is still naturally made by Jesus Christ from the dust of the earth, which has neither sin nor righteousness, the same as the grass of the earth. Isa 40:6
If we blame our bodies as the transgressors, then we mock God's creation as evil, and also make ourselves foolish to the world. Rom 2:3
Everyone comes into the world with the same natural body and lightened by Christ. If we choose to do evil with the world, then we make ourselves enemies of God with the world. If we repent and trust in the Lord Jesus Christ, then we can be made clean and do good: Jhn 1:2-4 3 John{1:11}
If we are transgressing God's commandments daily, then with the world we make ourselves enemies of God. Jas 4:4
James is rebuking those Christians that do transgress God's word daily. However, unlike some Christians, James does not preach to continue doing so, but rather to repent and be a friend of God. Jas 4:6
As I John 1:8 says, to be a transgressor and claim freedom from sin, is a delusion that reject's God's truth to repent and have our sin taken away. Jhn 8:34
We that do repent of our transgressions, and have our sin taken away by the Lamb of God, can also have no sin walking in the light, even as Jesus has no sin and is in the light: 1Jo 1:7 1Jo 3:5
We can regularly sin and regularly confess and be forgiven and washed clean by Jesus Christ, 1Jo 1:9
He likewise commands us to regularly forgive the transgressions of others, that also repent: Mat 18:21
However, regular transgression does not guarantee regular confession. Transgressors can only come to God and confess with godly sorrow, by the Spirit drawing us to Him. Jhn 6:44
God is not mocked, and if we take His forgiveness for granted, while continuing to regularly transgress His word, then He can let us alone without drawing us regularly back to Him: Rom 1:21 Jhn 6:65
We can go back to our sins and trespasses regularly, but without God drawing us to repentance, then we can also go back and no longer repent nor walk with Him. Heb 10:38 Psa 19:13
If we are regularly transgressing God's commandments on a daily basis, then we are willfully rebelling against the Lord daily:
Jas 4:4
Ye adulterers and adulteresses, know ye not that the friendship of the world is enmity with God? whosoever therefore will be a friend of the world is the enemy of God.
We that repent of all our transgressions, and have our sin taken away by the Lamb of God, can also by His grace and faith live daily without transgressing His commandments: Psa 106:3 1 John{3:7} 1 John{2:29} Rev 14:12
We are saints of Jesus Christ. We are not of religions that do less evil than before. 1 Peter {1:15} Jas 1:27
We are saved from doing evil, by having our lust and corruption cleansed from our hearts and souls. We are made free with the Son of God to do good and please the Father: Mat 1:21 Jhn 8:29 1Jo 2:6
Jesus died for our sins and rose again from the dead, that we may repent of our own sins, be forgiven and washed clean in His blood, and be saved and justified from committing any more evil against Him and the Father: Rom 4:24 Rev 12:17
Nor does it negate the fact that if we do evil after knowing God, then we crucify the Lamb afresh to ourselves.
If we transgress and do evil against the Lord that saves us, then we can repent and be cleansed, the same as any transgressors of the world.
Exo 20:19
And Moses said unto the people, Fear not: for God is come to prove you, and that his fear may be before your faces, that ye sin not.
1Jo 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. But if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
However, if we presumptuously sin taking God's mercy for granted, then we too can be left alone with Christ, as other false prophets, apostles, and traitors to God.
Rom 1:21
Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened... Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:
We can be double hearted in our faith towards God, and be delivered by repenting of all our transgressions:
Rom 7:24,
O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Jas 4:6
Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
We don't have to remain double hearted, until the Lord spues us out, but can be delivered to do good and not any evil work:
Rev 3:15
I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
2Ti 4:18
And the Lord shall deliver me from every evil work, and will preserve me unto his heavenly kingdom: to whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
We are all called to repentance from our dead works, but not all do repent, though Jesus has died for our sins and risen again for our justification.
Mat 22:14
For many are called, but few are chosen.
We can either follow the call of God to repentance, or resist the Spirit of grace, that draws all to repent.
Act 7:51
Ye stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears, ye do always resist the Holy Ghost: as your fathers did, so do ye.
If we are sinful, the Lamb of God has not taken away our sins. If we are sinning against Him, He has not saved us from our sins.
Mat 1:21
And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins.
Jhn 1:29
The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
1Jo 3:5
And we know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in him is not sinning: whosoever is sinning hath not seen him, neither known him.
If He has no sin in Him, we that are in Him have no sin. The Lamb of God takes away the sin from anyone, that does not resist God's grace, and repents of our own transgressions for our own soul's sake.
Pro 8:36
But he that is sinning against me wrongeth his own soul: all they that hate me love death.
Already corrected the error of Peter's keys alone by Scripture.
And so, the Catholic popes sit in Peter's seat, and the baptismal popes baptize by Peter's baptism.
And so, we see the error of rebirth being the result of commanded water baptism: All the Lord's commands are equal. Water baptism is not the greatest commandment, whereby we must be saved.
We keep all God's commands by repentance through faith toward God. The brethren's repentance and faith in Jesus Christ is not nullified, until keeping a commanded work of God.
Faith is only nullified by not keeping His commandments:
James{2:14}
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?...Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
Unless we keep God's commandments, our faith is dead. Our faith is not dead, until we keep His commandments.
The notion that remission of sin is always dependent on water baptism, is disputed by the command of baptism not for remission of sin, beginning with Peter after Pentecost in Act 3, and followed by Peter at Cornelius' house Acts 10. And preached by Paul to the Galatians.
Ok. So now we have a response to the challenge of how we can receive the Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ, and yet not be remitted of sins: An 'incomplete' new birth. Salvation has begun by faith and receiving Jesus Christ, but is not complete until baptized with water...
So, explain how someone can be 'incompletely' born again. Show Scripture.
How can anyone be 'incompletely' saved, washed, and justified by receiving the Spirit of the Lord, until water baptism.
1Co 6:11
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
How does anyone receive the Spirit and Jesus Christ 'incompletely', until water baptism.
1Co 1:12
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
And since your doctrine of incomplete rebirth is until water baptism, then the idolatry of water baptism is confirmed: No man is 'completely' born again, nor receives Jesus Christ 'completely', until baptized with our hands...
Acts{3:19}
Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord; And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:
Gal 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made complete by the flesh?
Or, is Jesus Christ not receive at all, until recieved with your hands of water baptism?
1Jo 5:21
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
Already answered.
Before arising to be baptized.
You are avoiding the fact that not all NT believers are commanded to be water baptized for remission of sins.
Since it's the only two times in Scripture water baptism is preached for remission of sins, then it's only to those law-keeping Jews that it was preached.
And water baptism is commanded today for all new converts. Not for remission of sins. Unless I suppose for a Mosaic Jew.
No, it's also in the hands full of water, if salvation cannot be until water baptized with men's hands.
Act 15:1
And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be baptized after the manner of Peter, ye cannot be saved.
And so, receiving the Spirit and Jesus Christ by faith, is not with remission of sin, until water baptism.
Jesus Christ Himself in us, has no power to save and remit sins, until water baptized with men's hands.
Or, Jesus Christ is not completely recieved, until water baptized, until water baptized with men's hands.
Gal 3:2
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made complete by the flesh?
Or, Jesus Christ cannot be recieved, until water baptized with men's hands.
1Jo 5:21
Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
Sidestep. I never say you do.
Scripture says new converts have recieved the Holy Ghost before water baptism.
The challenge to you is, recieving the Holy Ghost by faith of hearing, as the apostles did, and yet not remitted of sins, until water baptism.
So far, you hinted as an incomplete salvation and new birth, until water baptized with remission of sins. looking forward to you complete teaching on an incomplete salvation and new birth.
True. Some times after, and some times before. And of course, anyone can also receive the Holy Ghost during water baptism.
They must arise out of the water first to glorify God.
And so, once again we have your 'separate parts' salvation plan: An partial salvation by receiving the Holy Ghost and Jesus Christ, that is not complete until water baptism.
Is Jesus Christ only recieved in part, until water baptized with your hands?
1Co 1:13
Is Christ divided? was Paul crucified for you? or were ye baptized in the name of Paul?
Mar 3:24
And if a kingdom be divided against itself, that kingdom cannot stand.
If the gospel of salvation is divided into separate parts, including water baptism, then the gospel cannot stand if water is not available, or men's baptismal hands, or death after confessing Jesus Christ before any baptism...
Rom 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
I wouldn't doubt that the baptismal popes have an important ethical question to answer among themselves: If a new convert is headed down to your baptistry, and has a heart attack: Do you baptize under water and say the words first to remit sins, or apply CPR first to try and save the life?
When you move into irrelavant non-issues, then I keep the specific issue at hand.
Ex: the fact that Scripture commands water baptism for all new converts, is not an issue. Stating so is irrelavant to the issue.
The specific issue is whether Scripture commands water baptism for all converts for remission of sins. I.e. No new converts are remitted of sins, until water baptized.
That is the only issue at hand. I point out other non-issues are irrelevant, and stick to the issue at hand. But, if you keep inserting the non-issues into the debate, then I have to just ignore them to remain focused.
It's an old disingenuous debating tactic to divert from the issue at hand, by muddying the waters with other non-issues...
The keys to the kingdom that Jesus gave Peter are first recorded in Acts 2:4-42. Nothing you have said convinces me otherwise. I accept what scripture actually reveals.
As to the Roman Catholic church, it follows manmade traditions of it's own making. Many of which many Protestant denominations follow, whether knowingly or unknowingly.
No, repentance is the response for NOT obeying God’s commands that apply to us.
That doesn’t make sense.
Wrong. Faith is not “nullified by not keeping His commandments”. The Christian’s relationship with God is neither established nor maintained by keeping the commandments. Paul tells us that in Galatians.
All conversion accounts reveal the NT rebirth becomes a reality after believers repent, have their sins washed away in obedience to water baptism in the name of Jesus, AND receive the Holy Ghost as well.
Peter did not say those who believe are good to go, or just repent everyone. What he said was, repent, AND BE BAPTIZED EVERYONE OF YOU in the name of Jesus for remission of sin, AND you shall receive the Holy Ghost. (Acts 2:38)
Scripture shows people who had responded to part of God's revelation but had not yet experienced everything God required under the New Covenant.
- Acts 8:12–17 – The Samaritans believed the gospel and were baptized in the name of Jesus, yet "as yet he was fallen upon none of them." Days later they received the Holy Ghost through the laying on of the apostles' hands.
- Acts 10:44–48 – Cornelius and those with him received the Holy Ghost while Peter was preaching, yet Peter immediately commanded them to be baptized in the name of the Lord. If receiving the Holy Ghost alone completed everything, there would have been no reason for Peter to issue that command.
- Acts 19:1–6 – The Ephesians were already described as "disciples," yet Paul asked, "Have ye received the Holy Ghost since ye believed?" When he learned they had only received John's baptism, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus and then received the Holy Ghost.
The better question, therefore, is not, "How can someone be incompletely born again?" The biblical question is, "Have they responded to everything Jesus and His apostles commanded concerning the New Testament rebirth?"
The Book of Acts consistently presents the same essential elements: faith in Jesus Christ, repentance, water baptism in the name of Jesus, and receiving the Holy Ghost. While God sometimes varied the sequence—as in Acts 10—He never eliminated any of these elements. The apostles always continued until God's revealed pattern had been fulfilled.
I'm reminded of the words of Jesus in Matthew 7:21-25:
"Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock."
None of that is true, because it contradicts Gods Word. It's all based on your own unbiblical opinions.
Gods Word reveals that Christ's sacrifice covers all the sins of His elect—past, present, and future.
Passages like Hebrews 9:26 and Hebrews 10:14 state that Christ offered a single, complete sacrifice that perfects believers forever, meaning future sins were already future when He died on the cross.
Colossians 2:13-14 notes that God forgave all our trespasses and cancelled the record of debt, nailing it to the cross. justification is a legal declaration by God where a believer is pardoned from all eternal guilt once and for all.
That judicial (legal) forgiveness before God as Judge is complete for all time, but daily confession (1 John 1:9) restores fellowship and relational intimacy with God as Father.
Believers continue to repent not to regain lost salvation, but out of gratitude, ongoing growth, and alignment with God.
The keys to the kingdom that Jesus gave Peter are next recorded in Acts. Repentance and conversion commanded for for remissions of sin.
The keys to the kingdom that Jesus gave Peter are next recorded in Acts 10. Baptism commanded after remission of sins by the Holy Ghost.
The keys to the kingdom that Jesus gave Peter are also recorded in 1 Peter 3. Baptism is a figure of salvation.
Our faith is no good to God or man, if we are not keeping God's commandments to love one another:
1Jo 5:2
By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
Jas 2:14
What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
We can certainly still believe we are justified with God, but we are not justified by God.
Neither is the Jew's, Muslim, Buddhist...
And so also, a Christian's relationship can be whatever the Christian believes it to be. Only the saints of God keeping His commandments have the saving faith of Jesus Christ, and are justified by God.
Rev 14:12
Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
If we are a Christian transgressing commandments, and not a saint keeping God's commandments, then our Christian religion is vain with dead faith alone.
Jas 1:27
Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.
1Jo 3:24
And he that is keeping his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he is abiding in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
Rev 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
And so, we can believe whatever we want as Christians about our relationship with God; But if we are transgressing God's commandment, we are transgressors without the love of God and no right to the tree of life.
Side showing again. No apostle preaches it.
It's about remission of sins only with water baptism.
If receiving the Holy Ghost is not with remission of sins, until water baptism, then having the Holy Ghost is made of none effect, until baptized with men's hands.
The Holy Ghost has power to save and remit sins, without the hands of men.
Yes, it is. If the newbirth is not complete by the Holy Ghost, until water baptism.
This is a gospel of parts to complete, in order to be completely born again.
How then can anyone be incompletely reborn by only receiving the Holy Ghost, until water baptized with your hands?
I.e. a newbirth gospel of pattern with incomplete parts, unto the newbirth is completed.
How then can anyone be incompletely reborn by only receiving the Holy Ghost, until the salvation pattern is completed with your hands?
Are you one of those that takes that saving honor to himself, and so preach it so fervently? Are you an Act 2:38 baptizer, and not only baptizee?
It's not possible to have no necessary part in another person's newbirth, if our hands are a necessary part of their newbirth. There are no midwife baptizers in the newbirth of the Spirit of God.
We are not forgiven for presently transgressing God's commandments, especially not already forgiven for any future transgressions.
Rom 3:25
Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
We are only forgiven of past sins confessed and repented.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
1Jo 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:
If we do transgress, then we can confess and be forgiven as with any man. If we do not repent, we are not forgiven of our present transgression as with any man.
Jesus' sacrifice was complete, and by His resurrection He is able to forgive, wash, and reconcile to God any man that repents and believe the gospel.
1Jo 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
We are not forever perfected, until resurrection from the dead unto life.
Nonsensical.
But, if we are preaching future sins to ourselves and others, then we are not preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to sin not.
True. Once legally pardoned, all past transgressions are forever forgiven and forgotten.
If we are transgressing the law, we make ourselves legally guilty again.
5:14
Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee.
Daily confession is only for daily transgression. If we are preaching daily transgression and confession, we are not preaching the gospel of Jesus Christ to confess and transgress no more.
1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
Forgiveness is by confession. If we are already forgiven of present and future sins, and we confess our sin, we are calling Him a liar.
If we are not fellowshipping with Jesus Christ in the light, we are walking in darkness with the world.
Believers that continue to transgress must repent to be forgiven, and restored to His salvation and fellowship in the light.
Jas 5:19
Brethren, if any of you do err from the truth, and one convert him; Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
Believers that are transgressing God's commandments, are not growing in obedience, but falling by disobedience.
Heb 10:26
For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.
Scripture says there is no further sacrifice for believers that willfully sin against God. We make ourselves enemies of God with the sinners of the world.
1Jo 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world.
Like any sinner, we can repent and confess to be forgiven of God by Jesus Christ.
The Jews that made themselves enemies of God by sinning against Jesus, can be grafted in again by repentance and faith. So can the Christians that sin against Jesus Christ.
Rom 11:18
Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in. Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear: For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee. And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Scripture does not contradict itself. God is severe to them that sin against Him, and merciful to them that repent, to the Jew first and also to the Christian.
If, unlike the Jews, we as Christians can sin the same against Jesus, and yet not be broken off the same as the Jews, then Scripture would contradict itself. And we also make Jesus Christ a liar:
Jhn 15:5
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.