The book of Job

[tttallison]

similes are types of metaphors ... not all metaphors are similes.

From Grammarly:​

​

A simile is a type of metaphor, meaning all similes are metaphors, however, not all metaphors are similes.​

Simile vs. Metaphor: What’s the Difference?

Table of contents What is a simile? How are similes structured? When to avoid similes What is a metaphor? How…

www.grammarly.com

​

An indirect comparison that avoids "like" or "as" is technically called an implied metaphor rather than an implied simile.





both metaphors.





A simile is a simple figure of speech that compares two different things using the connecting words "like" or "as".





I believe the Book of Job and, in fact, Scripture as a whole, contains many figures of speech.

A figure of speech is an expression not meant to be taken in a literal way. Figures of speech use words in creative ways to share a deeper meaning.

In Job, you will find metaphors, similes, personification, hyperbole, irony, idioms. If we take literally what is meant figuratively, we will not fully understand the meaning.

.

Does it matter whose definition you use? Isn't it more important, that whether you use simile, or metaphor, leviathan still equates to Satan?

God asked Job If he was going to make a playmate out of Satan forever. God also reminded Job that Satan was the king over all the children of pride. How do you resolve the issues created by these statements of God? Resolving them is far more important than deciding what you are going to call the relationship between leviathan and Satan, especially since they are one in the same.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Does it matter whose definition you use?

It matters which figure of speech is used because if the reader does not understand that a figure of speech is used, he or she could take literally what God means figuratively ... and vice versa. God could be speaking literally and a reader may think God is speaking figuratively.

Either way, if we do not understand figurative vs literal, we miss the point ... we are not "rightly dividing the word of truth" (2 Timothy 2:15).

Isn't it more important, that whether you use simile, or metaphor, leviathan still equates to Satan?

leviathan equates to satan only to those of us who have the privilege of reading the book. There was no "book" for Job and his friends to read from. When Job was going through his ordeal, he was not aware that satan was behind the whole mess. Neither were his friends aware of satan.

We have information relating to the whole situation of which Job and his friends had no knowledge.

It's like the children of Israel passing through the Red Sea. God reveals to us the spiritual aspect:

1 Corinthians 10:1-4

1 Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea;

2 And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea;

3 And did all eat the same spiritual meat;

4 And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ.

The children of Israel experienced the physical deliverance from Egypt ... they were "baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea" ... they ate manna "the same spiritual meat" ... they drank from the rock "that Rock was Christ".

All these many years later, we know the spiritual significance of which the foreshadow is written in the record back in Exodus. We have both the physical and the spiritual revealed to us.

But those who lived through that time were only aware of the physical.

Job and his friends believed God was speaking of leviathan, a fierce and mighty sea creature.

The children of Israel believed God was delivering them from the bondage of Egypt. We know that Egypt is a type of the bondage of sin from which we in our day and time are delivered through our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. We experience the spiritual reality ... the children of Israel experienced the physical reality.

God asked Job If he was going to make a playmate out of Satan forever.

Did Job understand God was referring to satan? ... answer No.

In asking the question, God highlighted human weakness, the power of leviathan, and God's supreme strength over leviathan ... just as I have been telling you throughout the pages of this thread.

God also reminded Job that Satan was the king over all the children of pride.

Job did not understand God was referring to satan. That is truth you need to understand before you will ever begin to comprehend the Book of Job.

If you believe Job and his friends were aware of the workings of satan, you will continue to miss the whole point of the Book of Job.

How do you resolve the issues created by these statements of God? Resolving them is far more important than deciding what you are going to call the relationship between leviathan and Satan, especially since they are one in the same.

Explained to you above ... you have to put yourself in the place of Job and his friends and their complete ignorance of satan and his workings. We do not know if God ever revealed to Job that satan was behind this whole fiasco. We know God had not revealed this truth at the time Job's family and friends came to celebrate Job's deliverance because they all "comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him" (Job 42:11). You and I know the evil was brought about by satan.

Obviously, by the time the Book of Job was written God revealed this truth to the scribe ... but we do not know who wrote the book. We only know that it was written later about a time long ago and a place far away.

.

 

[Burn1986]

That is the point, the ministry we have received is a ministry of reconciliation. Every single sinner needs to be restored and the various ministries that Christians have do that because the Christians who have been given this ministry have gone through the exact same issues and they were restored. It is like a guide who can help sinners be restored in Christ and saved by grace.

So, why was it necessary for God to wait? Why did Lazarus have to die? Why did Jonah have to be almost dead before he was released? Sometimes there’s not an answer to that.

 

[ZNP]

So, why was it necessary for God to wait? Why did Lazarus have to die? Why did Jonah have to be almost dead before he was released? Sometimes there’s not an answer to that.

Because even after healing so many Martha and Mary and everyone else still didn't believe He was the resurrection and the life. According to Jewish teaching of their rabbis "dead" people can be resuscitated for up to three days. Basically they are claiming the soul isn't gone until the fourth day. So to wait four days before raising Lazarus was a resurrection that even the Jewish leaders could not deny.

The real question is if you have the life that conquers death why are you complaining about having to go into the ring with death? Our salvation is not to have a life that doesn't have to go through death, rather it is to have a life that conquers death.

 

[Burn1986]

Because even after healing so many Martha and Mary and everyone else still didn't believe He was the resurrection and the life. According to Jewish teaching of their rabbis "dead" people can be resuscitated for up to three days. Basically they are claiming the soul isn't gone until the fourth day. So to wait four days before raising Lazarus was a resurrection that even the Jewish leaders could not deny.

The real question is if you have the life that conquers death why are you complaining about having to go into the ring with death? Our salvation is not to have a life that doesn't have to go through death, rather it is to have a life that conquers death.

I know what it says, but when you’re going through the process, you ask God why it requires something. Just me being honest

 

[ZNP]

I know what it says, but when you’re going through the process, you ask God why it requires something. Just me being honest

The first fight Rocky Marciano went through was like hell. It was totally exhausting. He wasn't that good a fighter, but he realized even if he didn't have the best skills he could be the most fit and so he trained harder than anyone else ever did. then if you were going to fight him you knew you would have to go through 12 rounds of hell. They said he was just as intense in every round. As a result he was also the only undefeated heavyweight champion there ever was. Mohammed Ali was more skilled and George Foreman hit harder, but Rocky went through hell and realized, he could train so hard that he could make the fight hell for the opponent. Ali even said that was the one fighter he could lose to, because it would be 12 rounds of hell.

 

[tttallison]

(The following statements are by reneweddaybyday, and they were placed there by me, tttallison. They are not in sequence from one post, but rather from multiple postings.)

"We know it was satan because God revealed that to us ... none of them knew what Job suffered was brought upon him by satan."

"What I have stated is that neither Job nor his friends had any idea that God was referring to satan. None of them had a clue about satan. That is why they all believed God was the One behind all of Job's suffering. Even in Job 42:11 all Job's family and friends believed it was God Who brought evil upon Job."

"You have to understand that Job and his friends had no knowledge of satan. Job and his friends were aware of and knew about a sea creature called leviathan. Job and his friends understood that God was speaking to them of leviathan ... not satan."

"Job and his friends were completely ignorant of satan, so there is no way they could understand that God was referring to satan. They did not know satan was behind all the agony Job was suffering."

"Did Job understand God was referring to satan? ... answer No."

"Job did not understand God was referring to satan. That is truth you need to understand before you will ever begin to comprehend the Book of Job."

"If you believe Job and his friends were aware of the workings of satan, you will continue to miss the whole point of the Book of Job."

"you have to put yourself in the place of Job and his friends and their complete ignorance of satan and his workings."

"leviathan equates to satan only to those of us who have the privilege of reading the book. There was no "book" for Job and his friends to read from. When Job was going through his ordeal, he was not aware that satan was behind the whole mess. Neither were his friends aware of satan."

"We have information relating to the whole situation of which Job and his friends had no knowledge."

"Job and his friends believed God was speaking of leviathan, a fierce and mighty sea creature."

"Explained to you above ... you have to put yourself in the place of Job and his friends and their complete ignorance of satan and his workings. We do not know if God ever revealed to Job that satan was behind this whole fiasco. We know God had not revealed this truth at the time Job's family and friends came to celebrate Job's deliverance because they all "comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him" (Job 42:11). You and I know the evil was brought about by satan."

.

I would like to comment on your last sentence first. No, I do not know that the evil was brought about by Satan.

To deny that God was responsible for what happened to Job is to deny God's omniscience.

You continually exalt Job's relationship with God, and yet you claim you know more than Job knows about Satan.

Job said, Job 23:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. Do you know what those words were, or how Job obtained those words?

You said Job was completely ignorant of Satan, but you need to examine the following verse where Job is speaking to God----

Job 10:3 Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked? Job is condemning God, and complaining that God is following the counsel of Satan.

You could say Job is the work of God's hands, and the counsel of the wicked is Job's three friends. I prefer to think Job is referring to Satan as the counsel of the wicked.

Can you cite references where it is stated that Job had no knowledge of Satan?

 

[reneweddaybyday]

reneweddaybyday said:

We know it was satan because God revealed that to us ... none of them knew what Job suffered was brought upon him by satan.​

I would like to comment on your last sentence first. No, I do not know that the evil was brought about by Satan.

Job 2:7 So went Satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

who smote Job? ... satan smote Job.

To deny that God was responsible for what happened to Job is to deny God's omniscience.

I believe satan was responsible for what happened to Job ... and this in no way denies "God's omniscience".

Is God responsible when you sin? No!

Does God know you are going to sin before you sin? Yes!

God knowing how satan or you or I are going to behave does not mean God is "responsible" for the behavior of satan or you or me. satan is resonsible for satan's behavior ... you are responsible for your behavior ... I am responsible for my behavior.

And God knows what we are going to do before we do it.

God knowing does not equal God being responsible for the actions we take.

You continually exalt Job's relationship with God, and yet you claim you know more than Job knows about Satan.

God has revealed the actions of satan in His Word.

At the time Job lived, there was no written Word of God for Job to read and learn about satan and his antics.

Job said, Job 23:12 Neither have I gone back from the commandment of his lips; I have esteemed the words of his mouth more than my necessary food. Do you know what those words were, or how Job obtained those words?

Job heard directly from God ... Job did not have a book or a scroll to read.

Recall Job's words after God finally revealed Himself to Job when his ordeal was over:

Job 42:5 I have heard of thee by the hearing of the ear: but now mine eye seeth thee.

You said Job was completely ignorant of Satan, but you need to examine the following verse where Job is speaking to God----

Job 10:3 Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked? Job is condemning God, and complaining that God is following the counsel of Satan.

You could say Job is the work of God's hands, and the counsel of the wicked is Job's three friends. I prefer to think Job is referring to Satan as the counsel of the wicked.

The wicked in Job 10:3 are the wicked folks who seem to prosper and have no troubles.

Asaph spoke of the same issue in Psalms:

Psalm 73:2-5

2 But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped.

3 For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.

4 For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm.

5 They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like other men.

we see the same going on in our day and time.

Can you cite references where it is stated that Job had no knowledge of Satan?

no ... but the fact that God tells us in Job 2:7 that satan smote Job with boils from head to toe ... yet Job, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu all believed God had afflicted Job is very revealing ...

I wonder how the counsel of Job's friends would have changed if they had known Job was under attack from satan ... would they have provided more encouragement to Job (that he stand strong in faith)? ... would they have comforted him in his anguish? ... would they have prayed for God's Hand of protection over Job?

.

 

[tttallison]

The wicked in Job 10:3 are the wicked folks who seem to prosper and have no troubles.

You are saying Job accused God of seeking counsel from wicked men. What does that say for God? and what does that say for Job?

Isn't it more likely that Job was referring to the counsel of Satan, when Satan said remove the hedge and put forth your hand and Job will curse you to your face. This was an actual event that occurred. We know God listened to the counsel of Satan because God removed the hedge.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

You are saying Job accused God of seeking counsel from wicked men. What does that say for God? and what does that say for Job?

That is not what I said ... nor is it what the verse says.

Isn't it more likely that Job was referring to the counsel of Satan, when Satan said remove the hedge and put forth your hand and Job will curse you to your face. This was an actual event that occurred.

I believe it is more likely that the verse is referring to what has occurred among all generations and continues to this day ... evil-doers who are prosperous ... who are successful ... who seemingly have no problems ... and we know why this occurs, but Job did not.

We know God listened to the counsel of Satan because God removed the hedge.

Job did not know anything about satan having accused Job ... so how could Job be referring to satan in Job 10:3?

.

 

[tttallison]

That is not what I said ... nor is it what the verse says.

The verse says Job 10:3 Is it good unto thee--that thou shouldest shine upon the counsel of the wicked?

I believe it is more likely that the verse is referring to what has occurred among all generations and continues to this day ... evil-doers who are prosperous ... who are successful ... who seemingly have no problems ... and we know why this occurs, but Job did not.

You are saying the verse does not mean what it is saying, but rather something you imagine.

Job did not know anything about satan having accused Job ... so how could Job be referring to satan in Job 10:3?
.

How do you know that Job did not know about Satan having accused Job? What did God reveal to job through dreams and visions?

Job 7:14 Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:

 

[reneweddaybyday]

The verse says Job 10:3 Is it good unto thee--that thou shouldest shine upon the counsel of the wicked?

Who is it that "shines upon the counsel of the wicked" in this world, tttallison? who is "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2)?

You are saying the verse does not mean what it is saying, but rather something you imagine.

nope ... just because Job and his friends believed God was the One Who smote Job with sore boils from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head does not mean God was the One Who afflicted Job.

Job and his friends have an excuse for believing God was afflicting Job. You do not ... you know it was satan because God tells you it was satan. Quit attributing to God the actions of satan.

How do you know that Job did not know about Satan having accused Job?

because Job and his friends kept inferring God afflicted Job because of sin (or sins) Job had committed for which Job needed to repent.

What did God reveal to job through dreams and visions?

Job 7:14 Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions:

I do not believe God scared Job with dreams or terrify Job through visions.

I have already dealt with this verse with you (click, click) ... you and I are not in agreement about the dreams/visions Job had and I am not going to continue to argue with you about this verse.

.

 

[christophernyc]

Job was so proud of himself that he was challenging God to try and come up with an answer.

Job 13:23
How many are mine iniquities and sins? make me to know my transgression and my sin.

This is not the posture of a proud person in the midst of suffering. Job is seeking God in earnest in an effort to have his relationship with God restored.

Job’s posture in this vein is further evidenced in other verses, such as this one.

Job 10:15
If I be wicked, woe unto me; and if I be righteous, yet will I not lift up my head. I am full of confusion; therefore see thou mine affliction;

Job is clearly willing to question his standing with God. Is he guilty? Job wants to know. Proud people do not do this.

To assert Job is “challenging” God is preposterous. Job knows better, as evidenced in this verse, too.

Job 9:3,4
If he [man] will contend with Him [God], he cannot answer Him one of a thousand.
He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against Him [God], and hath prospered?

You have been blinded by the counsel of your own narrative. You have chosen the side of Job against God.

No, actually I just accepted God’s testimony about Job as written instead of inventing my own independent theory divorced from the text.

I believed God’s testimony when He says Job is blameless and upright, one who fears God and shuns evil at the beginning of the story.

God said Job was striving with God, instructing God, reproving God, and condemning God.

God’s testimony at the end of the story is that Job, His servant, has spoken what is “right” about Him. God explicitly states this twice.

Again, in reading this story, I just accepted God’s explicit testimony about Job as written.

How about you?

 

[tttallison]

Who is it that "shines upon the counsel of the wicked" in this world, tttallison? who is "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2)?

It is Satan. You are saying Job charged God with being Satan. It has to be one way or the other. Either way, Job doesn't look good.

nope ... just because Job and his friends believed God was the One Who smote Job with sore boils from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head does not mean God was the One Who afflicted Job.

Doesn't it matter what God said? God said, Job 2:3----although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Job and his friends have an excuse for believing God was afflicting Job. You do not ... you know it was satan because God tells you it was satan. Quit attributing to God the actions of satan.

If you hire a hit man to beat someone up, are you guilty of the beating?

because Job and his friends kept inferring God afflicted Job because of sin (or sins) Job had committed for which Job needed to repent.

As I remember it Job repented in the end with dust and ashes.

I do not believe God scared Job with dreams or terrify Job through visions.

.

You are saying the book of Job has continuous lies.

First, Eliphaz says he had vision that terrified him, and you are saying he lied? Job 4:13-14 In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men, Fear came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones to shake.

Second, Job says he also had dreams and visions in the night that terrified him, and was that a lie too? Job 7:14-15 Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions: So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life.

Thirdly, Elihu explains why they have dreams, and you claim this explanation is a lie also? Job 33:14-18 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction, That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man. He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It is Satan. You are saying Job charged God with being Satan. It has to be one way or the other. Either way, Job doesn't look good.

No! ... that is not what I am saying ... please follow the discussion:

tttallison said:​

You said Job was completely ignorant of Satan, but you need to examine the following verse where Job is speaking to God----

Job 10:3 Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?Job is condemning God, and complaining that God is following the counsel of Satan.

You could say Job is the work of God's hands, and the counsel of the wicked is Job's three friends. I prefer to think Job is referring to Satan as the counsel of the wicked.​

reneweddaybyday said:​

The wicked in Job 10:3 are the wicked folks who seem to prosper and have no troubles.

Asaph spoke of the same issue in Psalms:

Psalm 73:2-5

2 But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped.

3 For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.

4 For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm.

5 They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like other men.

we see the same going on in our day and time.​

tttallison said:​

Isn't it more likely that Job was referring to the counsel of Satan, when Satan said remove the hedge and put forth your hand and Job will curse you to your face. This was an actual event that occurred.​

reneweddaybyday said:​

I believe it is more likely that the verse is referring to what has occurred among all generations and continues to this day ... evil-doers who are prosperous ... who are successful ... who seemingly have no problems ... and we know why this occurs, but Job did not.​

tttallison said:​

The verse says Job 10:3 Is it good unto thee--that thou shouldest shine upon the counsel of the wicked?​

reneweddaybyday said:​

Who is it that "shines upon the counsel of the wicked" in this world, tttallison? who is "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2)?​

tttallison said:​

It is Satan. You are saying Job charged God with being Satan. It has to be one way or the other. Either way, Job doesn't look good.​

What I have stated is that Job could not have "charged God with being satan" because neither Job nor his friends knew that satan was behind the affliction suffered by Job.

I also have clarified that Job and his friends have an excuse for their assumption that God had afflicted Job because none of them knew satan was the one who smote Job. You, on the other hand, do not have an excuse because you knew from the get-go that satan was the one who attacked Job:

Job 2:7 So went satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

you know it was satan, I know it was satan, everyone who reads the Book of Job knows it was satan ... the ones who did not know it was satan are Job, Job's wife, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu, Job's brothers, Job's sisters, all of Job's acquaintances before satan's attack.

Job 42:11 Then came there unto him all his brethren, and all his sisters, and all they that had been of his acquaintance before, and did eat bread with him in his house: and they bemoaned him, and comforted him over all the evil that the LORD had brought upon him: every man also gave him a piece of money, and every one an earring of gold.

Job did not correct them and tell them "oh no, it was not the LORD Who brought all the evil, it was satan". At that point Job did not know it was satan. Did God reveal to Job before Job died? I do not know.

Doesn't it matter what God said? God said, Job 2:3----although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

Did God follow through on satan's request that God "put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath" (Job 1:11)???

My bible says God's response to satan was "all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand" (Job 1:12).

God's response to satan was to not move against Job. Instead because God knew satan would move against Job, He stayed satan from outright touching Job.

If you hire a hit man to beat someone up, are you guilty of the beating?

now you're accusing God of hiring a hit man? is there no end to the absurdity of your reasonings???

As I remember it Job repented in the end with dust and ashes.

Yes ... according to Job 42:3, Job repented because he had "uttered that I understood not; things too wonderful for me, which I knew not".

You are saying the book of Job has continuous lies.

nope ... you are saying that I am saying "the book of Job has continuous lies" ... which is something I have never stated ... nor do I believe "the book of Job has continuous lies".

First, Eliphaz says he had vision that terrified him, and you are saying he lied? Job 4:13-14 In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men, Fear came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones to shake.

No.

You assume God gave Eliphaz "thoughts from the visions of the night" which caused "fear came upon [Eliphaz], and trembling, which made all [his] bones to shake".

I do not believe the "thoughts from the visions of the night" which caused "fear came upon [Eliphaz], and trembling, which made all [his] bones to shake" was from God ... and I do not believe God told Eliphaz that Job believed he was "more just than God" (Job 4:17).

hmmm ... now who could have been the culprit which gave to Eliphaz those thoughts and visions which caused great fear to him? ... could that have been the "accuser of the brethren"???

you presume it was God. I do not.

Second, Job says he also had dreams and visions in the night that terrified him, and was that a lie too? Job 7:14-15 Then thou scarest me with dreams, and terrifiest me through visions: So that my soul chooseth strangling, and death rather than my life.

I have already dealt with this verse with you (click, click) ... you and I are not in agreement about the dreams/visions Job had and I am not going to continue to argue with you about this verse.

Thirdly, Elihu explains why they have dreams, and you claim this explanation is a lie also? Job 33:14-18 For God speaketh once, yea twice, yet man perceiveth it not. In a dream, in a vision of the night, when deep sleep falleth upon men, in slumberings upon the bed; Then he openeth the ears of men, and sealeth their instruction, That he may withdraw man from his purpose, and hide pride from man. He keepeth back his soul from the pit, and his life from perishing by the sword.

Please provide the post submitted by me wherein I claimed Elihu lied when he told Job that God speaks "In a dream, in a vision of the night".

Here is what I submitted back in March when we discussed Job 33:14-16:

reneweddaybyday said:​

These are the words of Elihu and, yes, we read in Scripture of times when God revealed things to folks through visions.​

.

 

[tttallison]

No! ... that is not what I am saying ... please follow the discussion:

tttallison said:​

You said Job was completely ignorant of Satan, but you need to examine the following verse where Job is speaking to God----​

​

Job 10:3 Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?Job is condemning God, and complaining that God is following the counsel of Satan.​

​

You could say Job is the work of God's hands, and the counsel of the wicked is Job's three friends. I prefer to think Job is referring to Satan as the counsel of the wicked.​

reneweddaybyday said:​

The wicked in Job 10:3 are the wicked folks who seem to prosper and have no troubles.​

​

Asaph spoke of the same issue in Psalms:​

​

Psalm 73:2-5​

​

2 But as for me, my feet were almost gone; my steps had well nigh slipped.​

​

3 For I was envious at the foolish, when I saw the prosperity of the wicked.​

​

4 For there are no bands in their death: but their strength is firm.​

​

5 They are not in trouble as other men; neither are they plagued like other men.​

​

we see the same going on in our day and time.​

tttallison said:​

Isn't it more likely that Job was referring to the counsel of Satan, when Satan said remove the hedge and put forth your hand and Job will curse you to your face. This was an actual event that occurred.​

reneweddaybyday said:​

I believe it is more likely that the verse is referring to what has occurred among all generations and continues to this day ... evil-doers who are prosperous ... who are successful ... who seemingly have no problems ... and we know why this occurs, but Job did not.​

tttallison said:​

The verse says Job 10:3 Is it good unto thee--that thou shouldest shine upon the counsel of the wicked?​

reneweddaybyday said:​

Who is it that "shines upon the counsel of the wicked" in this world, tttallison? who is "the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience" (Ephesians 2:2)?​

tttallison said:​

It is Satan. You are saying Job charged God with being Satan. It has to be one way or the other. Either way, Job doesn't look good.​

What I have stated is that Job could not have "charged God with being satan" because neither Job nor his friends knew that satan was behind the affliction suffered by Job.

I also have clarified that Job and his friends have an excuse for their assumption that God had afflicted Job because none of them knew satan was the one who smote Job. You, on the other hand, do not have an excuse because you knew from the get-go that satan was the one who attacked Job:

Job 2:7 So went satan forth from the presence of the LORD, and smote Job with sore boils from the sole of his foot unto his crown.

you know it was satan, I know it was satan, everyone who reads the Book of Job knows it was satan ... the ones who did not know it was satan are Job, Job's wife, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu, Job's brothers, Job's sisters, all of Job's acquaintances before satan's attack.

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It is rather hard to follow the discussion when you place so much thought in one post.

Satan was God's proxy, therefore Job, Job's wife, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu, Job's brothers, Job's sisters, all of Job's acquaintances before Satan's attack were correct. (God is not the author of confusion.)

Suppose the wicked counsel was as you propose, that does not alter the wickedness in Job's speech in addressing God. Job is saying God's actions are wicked in following wicked counsel.

 

[tttallison]

Job 13:23
How many are mine iniquities and sins? make me to know my transgression and my sin.

This is not the posture of a proud person in the midst of suffering. Job is seeking God in earnest in an effort to have his relationship with God restored.

Job’s posture in this vein is further evidenced in other verses, such as this one.

Job 10:15
If I be wicked, woe unto me; and if I be righteous, yet will I not lift up my head. I am full of confusion; therefore see thou mine affliction;

Job is clearly willing to question his standing with God. Is he guilty? Job wants to know. Proud people do not do this.

To assert Job is “challenging” God is preposterous. Job knows better, as evidenced in this verse, too.

Job 9:3,4
If he [man] will contend with Him [God], he cannot answer Him one of a thousand.
He is wise in heart, and mighty in strength: who hath hardened himself against Him [God], and hath prospered?

A proud man exalts himself. ​

Job 29:11 When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me:

Job 29:17 And I brake the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth. (Taking gold from the teeth of the dead.)

Job 29:18 Then I said, I shall die in my nest, and I shall multiply my days as the sand.

Job 29:20 My glory was fresh in me, and my bow was renewed in my hand.

Job 29:21 Unto me men gave ear, and waited, and kept silence at my counsel.

Job 29:22 After my words they spake not again; and my speech dropped upon them.

Job 29:23 And they waited for me as for the rain; and they opened their mouth wide as for the latter rain.

Job 29:24 If I laughed on them, they believed it not; and the light of my countenance they cast not down.

Job 29:25 I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforteth the mourners.

Job 27:6 My righteousness I hold fast, and will not let it go: my heart shall not reproach me so long as I live.


A proud man cannot see his iniquity, so when he is chastised he becomes bitter. ​

Job 3:1 After this opened Job his mouth, and cursed his day.

Job 3:23 Why is light given to a man whose way is hid, and whom God hath hedged in?

Job 6:9 Even that it would please God to destroy me; that he would let loose his hand, and cut me off!

Job 7:19 How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?

Job 10:3 Is it good unto thee that thou shouldest oppress, that thou shouldest despise the work of thine hands, and shine upon the counsel of the wicked?

Job 10:20 Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little,

Job 9:15 Whom, though I were righteous, yet would I not answer, but I would make supplication to my judge.

Job 9:23 If the scourge slay suddenly, he will laugh at the trial of the innocent.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

It is rather hard to follow the discussion when you place so much thought in one post.

r-i-g-h-t ... I suppose you are the only one allowed to "place so much thought in one post". Do you even realize that I and others are responding to posts you submit and wherein you include many tangled issues which need to be unraveled?

Satan was God's proxy

no he wasn't.

Please provide chapter and verse wherein God told satan to destroy Job's livestock, kill Job's servants, kill Job's servants.

Please provide chapter and verse wherein God told satan to afflict Job with sore boils from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head.

In reading Job 1 and 2, God placed restraints on satan so satan could not utterly destroy Job.

therefore Job, Job's wife, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu, Job's brothers, Job's sisters, all of Job's acquaintances before Satan's attack were correct. (God is not the author of confusion.)

The discussions from Job, Job's wife, Eliphaz, Bildad, Zophar, Elihu, Job's brothers, Job's sisters, all of Job's acquaintances were clouded in ignorance as they all were completely unaware of satan's involvement in the whole fiasco.

You, on the other hand, are not ignorant because God tells you from the outset that satan was the one who was behind Job's suffering, agony, and torment.

If not for the restraint placed upon satan, he would have utterly destroyed Job ... that is his ministry according to John 10:10.

John 10:10 The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

Suppose the wicked counsel was as you propose, that does not alter the wickedness in Job's speech in addressing God. Job is saying God's actions are wicked in following wicked counsel.

God did not follow "wicked counsel" ... fyi, God restrained satan from outright killing Job and when satan finally left off tormenting Job, God restored Job.

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[tttallison]

no he wasn't.

Please provide chapter and verse wherein God told satan to destroy Job's livestock, kill Job's servants, kill Job's servants.

Please provide chapter and verse wherein God told satan to afflict Job with sore boils from the soles of his feet to the crown of his head.

In reading Job 1 and 2, God placed restraints on satan so satan could not utterly destroy Job.

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If you introduce someone to a hitman and you know the hitman will want to take the person out, and you know the ending before the beginning, then you are responsible.

When you put limits on the hitman, then everything outside the limits is fair game.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

If you introduce someone to a hitman and you know the hitman will want to take the person out, and you know the ending before the beginning, then you are responsible.

God knows you will sin before you sin ... does that make God responsible for your sin?

When you put limits on the hitman, then everything outside the limits is fair game.

God restraining satan from outright killing Job does not equal God being responsible for "everything outside the limits" He placed on satan.

satan is wholly responsible for the actions he took against Job.

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