OSAS origins and comparison

[NightTwister]

Are you saying that Jesus did not die for the sin of stopping trusting Him? Are you saying that anyone who began to trust Jesus and stopped trusting Him at some point, has no way back into reconciliation with Him?

That's what you seem to be saying.

I don’t disagree that the Pharisees did that. But that they did that, does not logically negate that they also relied for acceptance with God, on knowing and guarding and keeping scripture, as they interpreted it,

They relied on accepting themselves.

 

[PaulThomson]

Iasked: "Are you saying that Jesus did not die for the sin of stopping trusting Him? Are you saying that anyone who began to trust Jesus and stopped trusting Him at some point, has no way back into reconciliation with Him?"

That's what you seem to be saying.

Please, quote what I said that sounds like that to you. You don’t seem to have tried very much, if at all, to understand what I wrote.

 

[NightTwister]

Iasked: "Are you saying that Jesus did not die for the sin of stopping trusting Him? Are you saying that anyone who began to trust Jesus and stopped trusting Him at some point, has no way back into reconciliation with Him?"

Please, quote what I said that sounds like that to you. You don’t seem to have tried very much, if at all, to understand what I wrote.

I understood exactly what you wrote. You seem to believe that Jesus didn't die for some sins which if committed after conversion would cause a loss of eternal life. If Jesus died and paid the price for those sins, on what basis can eternal life be lost?

 

[Gideon300]

Tell me how to define the infinite, to put God in a box and make Him fit your intellect and I will explain the new law to you. Presumably you reject everything I've said previously. The problem is that I am talking about the spiritual and you are trying to use your intellect to understand it. The natural man does not comprehend the things of God.

Romans 8:2. For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set you free from the law of sin and death. Berean version.

Law is a repeating principle. The law of gravity ensures that what goes up must come down. However, the law of gravity can be overcome by another law, the law of flight. A Swift can stay aloft for 10 months. So it is that the law of the Spirit of Life overcomes the Law (the commandments) that bring death.

The New covenant is the reverse of the Old. The Old covenant says you must do this in order to live. The New covenant tells us that Christ makes us alive without us doing anything but accept God's gift of eternal life in Christ. Real Christianity is new life in Christ, not a set of rules.

The OT law was given to prove to man that he could not keep the law. The law was put in charge of us to lead us to Christ. I've quoted that several times. The law of Moses no longer applies to believers.​

You are sad because you are no longer under the Law? The Law that you never could keep? Now I'm sad for you.

 

[PaulThomson]

I understood exactly what you wrote. You seem to believe that Jesus didn't die for some sins which if committed after conversion would cause a loss of eternal life. If Jesus died and paid the price for those sins, on what basis can eternal life be lost?

You did not quote what I said, which is what I asked of you; but simply put words into my mouth. What statement of mine are you referring to?

 

[Dave123]

Please, to show you have actually in good faith considered the other side’s argument, in your own words, explain how someone who does not agree with OSAS would exegete to support their view, the texts you have cited as proving your view.

I have. I refer you to all the posts that I already wrote in this thread. I only wish that you would offer the same curtesy.

Dave

 

[Dave123]

when people here say they dont have to keep the ten commandments as Jesus asked us to do to have eternal life it is a sin, it is a rejection of Jesus, a grave sin.

Please quote the post that you're referring to that says "people here say they dont have to keep the ten commandments".

All you have is an argument against a ghost that only exists in your own head. In fact, by repeating that obvious error over and over, I'm sure now that you're doing it deliberately. Your gig is up 2. Have a nice day.

1 Peter 1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

 

[Chester]

I don't believe you can lose the Holy Spirit, but God has a criteria for who He gives His Holy Spirit to:

Acts 5:32 We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

God knows who are willing to obey Him. He won't give His precious Holy Spirit to people who won't obey Him.

So not everyone who thinks they are saved automatically receive the Holy Spirit - only those willing to and actually obey God.

I like what you say about Acts 5:32: It says the Holy Spirit is given to those who obey Jesus. That is what the verse says so that is what we know.

 

[NightTwister]

You did not quote what I said, which is what I asked of you; but simply put words into my mouth. What statement of mine are you referring to?

"

You did not quote what I said, which is what I asked of you; but simply put words into my mouth. What statement of mine are you referring to?

"Keep trusting Jesus and you will continue to be there."

 

[Chester]

Sealed unto the last day

Ephesians 1:13,14 do not say that (at least in the versions I have) - and even if they did say that - you are using your own definition of "sealed" in your explanations - Nowhere does this text clearly say that the Holy Spirit will not leave the spirit of a believer.

 

[Chester]

Opponents of eternal Salvation have to show where Jesus expressly stated,he would lift his seal and strip away all that occured when we were made new in him.

I am not sure what your point really is here? I have not been trying to give a verse that says this . . .? I am just asking for a verse that says clearly that the Spirit cannot and will not ever leave a believer? Ephesians 1:3,14 do not clearly say that in any version I have: that is - unless a person adds their own definition of "sealed" and assumes certain things which the text does not clearly say.

 

[Chester]

Because as Jesus said,we are Saved by his grace. And that is irrevocable.

Your challenge would be to find the passage where Jesus contradicts that irrevocable Salvific gift. And states,it is irrevocable by our choice.

Such Scripture does not exist.

Romans 11:29

Romans 11:29 says: "for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable"

I guess here I do not know for sure what you mean that "we are saved by grace, and that is irrevocable." If you mean that the gift of salvation is always going to be "by grace through faith" as Paul says in Ephesians, then I agree completely.

 

[Chester]

Furthermore,why would you want to insist,as a born again Christian,you are not actually irrevocable sealed and Saved in Christ?

I am a bit befuddled by your question: Can you give me the post # where I "insist as a born again believer that I am not actually irrevocably sealed and saved in Christ?"

I know that as a believer I am "sealed with the Holy Spirit" as Ephesians 1:13 clearly says. Hallelujah! PTL! That is enough for me. I don't need to want to say more than what the Word says.

 

[Chester]

Hey Chester.

The nature of the seal is that it can only be broken by the one that made it. Seems pretty straight forward. There are exact verses there. The Truth is in the context.

Ephesians 1:11-14 In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestined according to the purpose of Him who works all things according to the counsel of His will, that we who first trusted in Christ should be to the praise of His glory. In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise, who is the guarantee of our *inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, to the praise of His glory.

2 Corinthians 1:21-22--My bad, I put 1 Corinthians, it's second Corinthians 1:21-22.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am persuaded that neither death nor life, nor angels nor principalities nor powers, nor things present nor things to come, nor height nor depth, nor any other created thing, shall be able to separate us from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Philippians 1:6 being confident of this very thing, that He (the Spirit of Christ Romans 8:9-11) who has begun a good work in you Galatians 3:2-3) will complete it until the day of Jesus Christ;

BTW, are you now being perfected by the flesh? That's a very valid question. You see we call it evidences because our works are obedience, or our good works are from the Holy Spirit, not the flesh. When you claim these good works for yourself, you are also claiming that those same good works come from your flesh. It's the lack of fruit , an evidence, that can condemn us. If it's from the flesh, then it's a lack of works. Your flesh cannot produce a good work. Paul's question to you...

Galatians 3:2-3 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh?

What do you have that you did not receive from God as a gift? And if you did received it from god as a gift, why do you boast as if you boast as if your flesh has obtained something? (1 Corinthians 4:7). If Abraham was justified by works then he has something to boast about (Romans 4).

Consider the verses already posted as context for 1 Peter next.

1 Peter 1: Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten (born again) us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead (Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:9-14, Galatians 3:27m 1 Peter 3:21 see below), to an *inheritance* (Ephesians 1:11) incorruptible and undefiled and that does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, who are kept by the power of God through faith for salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

1 Peter 3:21 There is also an antitype which now saves us--baptism (not the removal of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God), through the resurrection of Jesus Christ,

 

[Chester]

Hey Chester.

The nature of the seal is that it can only be broken by the one that made it. Seems pretty straight forward. There are exact verses there. The Truth is in the context.

Dave, I guess we can just agree to see things differently, and I suppose it is because we have different approaches to Scripture. I do not formulate a doctrine unless I find a Scripture that states it clearly. You say "the nature of a seal . . ." - but the text does not state your assumption. I am not saying you are wrong - I am just saying the text does not say that. That is at least how I study Scripture.

Blessings,
Chester

 

[Bible_Locket]

I am a bit befuddled by your question: Can you give me the post # where I "insist as a born again believer that I am not actually irrevocably sealed and saved in Christ?"

I know that as a believer I am "sealed with the Holy Spirit" as Ephesians 1:13 clearly says. Hallelujah! PTL! That is enough for me. I don't need to want to say more than what the Word says.

My observation applies to any and all, which is why I addressed, any Christian.

I don't understand how any born again Christian,holy spirit filled,sealed, eternally,irrevocably,as Jesus said,can insist it isn't actually true.

Which is what is happening when such people enter threads generated to deny the Gospel. And insist repeatedly that Christians holy spirit filled and sealed irrevocably,can change that by their will and actions.

It's hypocritical and contradictory. And a false doctrine that is never sustained by scripture.

Twisted scripture may make it seem true. But,that's not actually God's words.

 

[Dave123]

.
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1 Peter 1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

 

[Chester]

.
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1 Peter 1:23 having been born again, not of corruptible seed but incorruptible, through the word of God which lives and abides forever,

Amen! Being born again puts the incorruptible Spirit (the essence/DNA/seed) of God in the believer!

 

[PaulThomson]

I understood exactly what you wrote. You seem to believe that Jesus didn't die for some sins which if committed after conversion would cause a loss of eternal life. If Jesus died and paid the price for those sins, on what basis can eternal life be lost?

PaulThomson said:
You did not quote what I said, which is what I asked of you; but simply put words into my mouth. What statement of mine are you referring to?

"Keep trusting Jesus and you will continue to be there."

"Keep trusting Jesus and you will continue to be there,” does not mean that "Jesus didn't die for some sins which, if committed after conversion, would cause a loss of eternal life.”

aiOnios does not mean “endless". aiOnios zoE does not mean "endless life". If you are reading endless into the phrase eternal/aeonous life you are not understanding the underlying Greek text and you will misunderstand my position. aiOnios is and adjective formed from aiOn which means an age/aeon. Ages and aeons are not endless periods of time. But there are features that may be charav=cteristic of ages. The bronze age featured the development of bronze and the making of tools and weapons from bronze. The bronze age ended when it superceded by the iron age. We have the Jurassic age/period, the computer age, etc. IMO aeonous life is the kind of life characteristic of those who have experienced the new birth out of the Spirit. Jesus identifies eternal/aeonous life in John 17:2-3

17:2 καθὼς (Just as) ἔδωκας (You give/gave) αὐτῷ (to Him) ἐξουσίαν (authority) πάσης σαρκός (of all flesh) ἵνα (so that) πᾶν (everything) ὃ (which) δέδωκας (You give/gave) αὐτῷ (to Him) δώσῃ (He might give) αὐτοῖς (to them): ζωὴν αἰώνιον (aeonous life).

17:3 αὕτη δέ (so this) ἐστιν (is) ἡ αἰώνιος ζωή (the eternal/aeonous life) ἵνα (so that) γινώσκωσιν (they may know ) σὲ (You) τὸν μόνον (the only) ἀληθινὸν (true) θεὸν (God) καὶ (and) ὃν (whom) ἀπέστειλας (You sent), Ἰησοῦν (Jesus) Χριστόν (Christ).

Just as You gave to Him authority over all flesh, so that He might give to them everything You gave to Him: aeonous/eternal life.
So, this is the aeonous/eternal life given so that they may know You, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom You sent.

Everything Jesus gave to His disciples for the purpose of them continuing to know the True God and Christ is aeonous life. Those things are things that will be fully characteristic of the age to come when we see them face to face, and are already in a somewhat more limited way characteristic of disciples who see Jesus and the Father presently as through a darkened glass.

Having aeonous life, as I understand scripture, is living according to the things Jesus gave His disciples, according to spirit. And therefore, living according to the flesh is not having aeonous life. To be truthful, we according to this understanding of aeonous life, we phase in and out of aeonous life as we phase into and out of spiritual vs. carnal living.

So, there is no sin that we commit after conversion that is not covered by the cross, that we cannot come back from, if we have fallen into it.

Prov 24:16
For a just man stumbles seven times, and rises up again: but the wicked topples into calamity.

 

[NightTwister]

PaulThomson said:
You did not quote what I said, which is what I asked of you; but simply put words into my mouth. What statement of mine are you referring to?



"Keep trusting Jesus and you will continue to be there,” does not mean that "Jesus didn't die for some sins which, if committed after conversion, would cause a loss of eternal life.”

aiOnios does not mean “endless". aiOnios zoE does not mean "endless life". If you are reading endless into the phrase eternal/aeonous life you are not understanding the underlying Greek text and you will misunderstand my position. aiOnios is and adjective formed from aiOn which means an age/aeon. Ages and aeons are not endless periods of time. But there are features that may be charav=cteristic of ages. The bronze age featured the development of bronze and the making of tools and weapons from bronze. The bronze age ended when it superceded by the iron age. We have the Jurassic age/period, the computer age, etc. IMO aeonous life is the kind of life characteristic of those who have experienced the new birth out of the Spirit. Jesus identifies eternal/aeonous life in John 17:2-3

17:2 καθὼς (Just as) ἔδωκας (You give/gave) αὐτῷ (to Him) ἐξουσίαν (authority) πάσης σαρκός (of all flesh) ἵνα (so that) πᾶν (everything) ὃ (which) δέδωκας (You give/gave) αὐτῷ (to Him) δώσῃ (He might give) αὐτοῖς (to them): ζωὴν αἰώνιον (aeonous life).

17:3 αὕτη δέ (so this) ἐστιν (is) ἡ αἰώνιος ζωή (the eternal/aeonous life) ἵνα (so that) γινώσκωσιν (they may know ) σὲ (You) τὸν μόνον (the only) ἀληθινὸν (true) θεὸν (God) καὶ (and) ὃν (whom) ἀπέστειλας (You sent), Ἰησοῦν (Jesus) Χριστόν (Christ).

Just as You gave to Him authority over all flesh, so that He might give to them everything You gave to Him: aeonous/eternal life.
So, this is the aeonous/eternal life given so that they may know You, the only true God and Jesus Christ whom You sent.

Everything Jesus gave to His disciples for the purpose of them continuing to know the True God and Christ is aeonous life. Those things are things that will be fully characteristic of the age to come when we see them face to face, and are already in a somewhat more limited way characteristic of disciples who see Jesus and the Father presently as through a darkened glass.

Having aeonous life, as I understand scripture, is living according to the things Jesus gave His disciples, according to spirit. And therefore, living according to the flesh is not having aeonous life. To be truthful, we according to this understanding of aeonous life, we phase in and out of aeonous life as we phase into and out of spiritual vs. carnal living.

So, there is no sin that we commit after conversion that is not covered by the cross, that we cannot come back from, if we have fallen into it.

Prov 24:16
For a just man stumbles seven times, and rises up again: but the wicked topples into calamity.

Exactly what I expected from you.

Let's try this a different way. If a Christian fails to obtain eternal life in the end, is it because he was saved and failed, or because he was never saved?