What does Jesus mean about mansions?
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This is interesting..... can you elaborate further why you have come to this conclusion.
It ties in with the belief in an immortal soul, which I do not believe in, but I will try to keep it short
The thief on the cross story is used to say that when Jesus said to the thief "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" it meant the thiefs disembodied soul went to heaven.
So if the thief was in heaven with Jesus that day, it means, Christ did not die, only his body died. The thief did not die, only his body died, you get the idea. The typical gnostic view of the soul.
The sciptures tell us that Christ was in the heart of the earth for three days and nights, the angel declared he was raised from the dead in Matthew 28:5-6, Jesus predicted he would be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights in Matthew 12:40, the apostle tells us that Christ was raised from the dead before he ascended up far above the heavens in Ephesians 4:9-10.
Jesus did not go to heaven with the thief that day, He showed himself alive for forty days after His resurrection (Acts 1:3), and this was not some disembodied ghost, as he proved to Thomas in John 20:27-29.
In John 20:17 Jesus says to Mary Magdalene, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:"
Maybe the thief went to heaven ahead of Jesus then?. Well not according to 1 Corinthians 15:20, if Christ was not raised from the dead first, then nobody has any hope of resurrection, we are all still dead in our sins.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1 Corinthians 15:20
And verse 23:
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Corinthians 15:23
A simple explanation is that the paradise referred to was the garden tomb.
The word paradise (παράδεισος, paradeisos, par-ad'-i-sos) is originally a Persian word for ‘park’ or ‘garden’ usually enclosed by walls or a fence. Literally: Para - meaning around + deisos meaning a wall. It was and still is today, the custom to bury the dead in a bordered park or garden. Most Cemeteries today are enclosed gardens, where the dead are buried.
Expository Dictionary of Bible Words W.E. Vine P158 PARADEISOS (παράδεισος) is an Oriental word, first used by the historian Xenophon, denoting the parks of Persian kings and nobles." It is of Persian origin (Old Pers. pairidaeza, akin to Gk. peri, "around," and teichos, "a wall") whence it passed into Greek.
And Manasseh slept with his fathers, and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza: and Amon his son reigned in his stead.
2 Kings 21:18
And he was buried in his sepulchre in the garden of Uzza: and Josiah his son reigned in his stead.
2 Kings 21:26
So where did Jesus' body go that day?
John 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
That day Jesus went to an enclosed bordered garden, to the grave. And where did the thief go that day? To the grave also.
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isaiah 53:9
Notice it does not say he made his grave with one wicked and one saved, it just says he made his grave with the wicked. Of course that could mean he made his grave with everybody that had died already in the ground, but it could also mean those he was crucified with.
And there is more to it if you want me to continue ?
It ties in with the belief in an immortal soul, which I do not believe in, but I will try to keep it short
Are you an Annihilationist?
If that means immortal souls do not get tormented for eternity, but are wiped out of existence forever - yes I am
The thief on the cross story is used to say that when Jesus said to the thief "Today shalt thou be with me in paradise" it meant the thiefs disembodied soul went to heaven.
So if the thief was in heaven with Jesus that day, it means, Christ did not die, only his body died. The thief did not die, only his body died, you get the idea. The typical gnostic view of the soul.
The sciptures tell us that Christ was in the heart of the earth for three days and nights, the angel declared he was raised from the dead in Matthew 28:5-6, Jesus predicted he would be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights in Matthew 12:40, the apostle tells us that Christ was raised from the dead before he ascended up far above the heavens in Ephesians 4:9-10.
Jesus did not go to heaven with the thief that day, He showed himself alive for forty days after His resurrection (Acts 1:3), and this was not some disembodied ghost, as he proved to Thomas in John 20:27-29.
In John 20:17 Jesus says to Mary Magdalene, "Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father:"
Maybe the thief went to heaven ahead of Jesus then?. Well not according to 1 Corinthians 15:20, if Christ was not raised from the dead first, then nobody has any hope of resurrection, we are all still dead in our sins.
But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept.
1 Corinthians 15:20
And verse 23:
But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
1 Corinthians 15:23
A simple explanation is that the paradise referred to was the garden tomb.
The word paradise (παράδεισος, paradeisos, par-ad'-i-sos) is originally a Persian word for ‘park’ or ‘garden’ usually enclosed by walls or a fence. Literally: Para - meaning around + deisos meaning a wall. It was and still is today, the custom to bury the dead in a bordered park or garden. Most Cemeteries today are enclosed gardens, where the dead are buried.
Expository Dictionary of Bible Words W.E. Vine P158 PARADEISOS (παράδεισος) is an Oriental word, first used by the historian Xenophon, denoting the parks of Persian kings and nobles." It is of Persian origin (Old Pers. pairidaeza, akin to Gk. peri, "around," and teichos, "a wall") whence it passed into Greek.
And Manasseh slept with his fathers, and was buried in the garden of his own house, in the garden of Uzza: and Amon his son reigned in his stead.
2 Kings 21:18
And he was buried in his sepulchre in the garden of Uzza: and Josiah his son reigned in his stead.
2 Kings 21:26
So where did Jesus' body go that day?
John 19:38 And after this Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, besought Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took the body of Jesus.
41 Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new sepulchre, wherein was never man yet laid.
That day Jesus went to an enclosed bordered garden, to the grave. And where did the thief go that day? To the grave also.
And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.
Isaiah 53:9
Notice it does not say he made his grave with one wicked and one saved, it just says he made his grave with the wicked. Of course that could mean he made his grave with everybody that had died already in the ground, but it could also mean those he was crucified with.
And there is more to it if you want me to continue ?
Some of this seems reasonable to me, I am very much agree we need to read scripture as a timeline of events where one event needs to precede the the other event.
We do not know where the thief was buried, most likely a mass grave, not in place where wealthy Jews were buried?
Okay well that is something I do not see in scripture so I suppose we can stop here, since it is a fruitless discussion for us.
I also see many problems with ECT as well...just so you know.
It is not 100% fact as you suggest. The proof text people use is from 1 Peter 3:19, which is talking about Noah, not Jesus.
We are not told that are we - but I have more on the thief thing if you want me to continue ?
Sure, there are always ideas around which are good to have knowledge of.
I was not thinking about Annihilationism in the thief post, Just that the idea that we have immortal souls that leave our bodies and live forever is Gnosticism - without Christ/God we do not have eternal life. There are those that believe that Christ was a spirit inhabiting a mans body, and that the Christ spirit left the body at the crucifixion and it was the man Jesus only that died.Okay well that is something I do not see in scripture so I suppose we can stop here, since it is a fruitless discussion for us.
I also see many problems with ECT as well...just so you know.
Id say with those thoughts on the soul I came to the conclusion we all have conditional Immortality - not sure if that is the same or different to Annihilationism -not trying to convert you to that idea just explaining why I came to that conclusion.
Here you go: the answer you have been seeking is now found.
Chuppah (חֻפָּה) – Bridal Chamber / Canopy
The couple enters the chuppah, symbolizing the consummation and union.
Traditionally associated with a seven-day bridal chamber period.
The 12-Step Hebrew Wedding Pattern
1) The Bride Is Chosen by the Father
In ancient Israel, the father of the groom chose the bride.
Spiritual meaning
God the Father chose the Church for His Son before the world began.
“You did not choose Me, but I chose you…” — John 15:16
“He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world…” — Ephesians 1:4
2) The Bride Price Is Paid
The groom paid a mohar (bride price) to redeem the bride.
Spiritual meaning
Jesus paid the price with His blood.
“You were bought with a price.” — 1 Corinthians 6:20
3) The Marriage Covenant (Betrothal) Is Made
The couple drank from a cup of wine sealing the covenant (kiddushin).
They were legally married — though not yet living together.
Spiritual meaning
The New Covenant was sealed at the Last Supper.
“This cup is the new covenant in My blood.” — Luke 22:20
The Church today is betrothed — not yet living with Christ physically.
4) The Bride Is Set Apart
The bride was now consecrated to her groom alone.
Spiritual meaning
The Church is sanctified — set apart for Christ.
“I betrothed you to one husband… Christ.” — 2 Corinthians 11:2
5) The Groom Leaves to Prepare a Place
The groom returned to his father’s house to build a bridal chamber.
He could not return until his father approved the place.
Spiritual meaning
Jesus ascended to Heaven to prepare our dwelling.
“I go to prepare a place for you.” — John 14:2
6) The Bride Waits — Not Knowing the Day or Hour
Only the father decided when the groom could go get his bride.
The bride lived in expectation — always ready.
Spiritual meaning
No one knows when Christ will return.
“No one knows the day or hour…” — Matthew 24:36
7) The Groom Comes With a Shout and a Trumpet
When the father approved, the groom went to fetch the bride.
He came at night with:
• a shout
• a trumpet blast
• a procession
Spiritual meaning
This is the rapture signal.
“The Lord Himself will descend with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God…” — 1 Thessalonians 4:16
8) The Bride Is Taken Away (This Is the Rapture)
The bride was lifted up and carried away to the groom’s house.
She did not walk — she was taken.
Spiritual meaning
The Church is caught up.
“We who are alive… shall be caught up together… to meet the Lord in the air.” — 1 Thessalonians 4:17
This is the rapture — before judgment.
9) The Bride Enters the Bridal Chamber
The couple entered the chuppah (bridal chamber) for about 7 days.
The door was shut.
Spiritual meaning
The Church is in Heaven while Earth goes through the 7-year Tribulation.
“Come… enter your rooms and shut the doors behind you.” — Isaiah 26:20
10) The Marriage Is Consummated
The bride and groom became one.
Spiritual meaning
The Church is permanently united with Christ.
“They are no longer two but one.” — Matthew 19:6
11) The Bride Is Revealed
After the chamber period, the bride appeared publicly.
Spiritual meaning
The Church returns with Christ in glory.
“When Christ appears, you also will appear with Him in glory.” — Colossians 3:4
12) The Marriage Supper
A huge public feast followed.
Spiritual meaning
This is the Marriage Supper of the Lamb.
“Blessed are those invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” — Revelation 19:9
Why This Is So PowerfulThis wedding model:
- Explains why the Church is removed before judgment
- Matches rapture language exactly
- Explains “no one knows the day or hour”
- Explains the 7-year separation
- Explains why the Church returns with Christ
It is not a metaphor invented later — it is built into Jewish marriage itself, which God designed to be a prophetic blueprint.
My other party pooper thoughts on the thief thing is this :
How do we know that the thief on the cross was saved, like we are all taught ?
The thief would normally have survived the crucifixion for a few days, it was a painful and slow death, but Jesus knew what the thief did not know, that they would be buried that day.
John 19:31 The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an high day,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.
The Jews asked that the legs of those crucified be broken, because of the Sabbath day. In order to breathe adequately, the crucified victim periodically had to push himself up using his legs. Breaking the legs prevented them from doing that, thus hastening their deaths. They would suffocate. Had the thieves legs not been broken they would not of been buried that day.
This fulfilled the prophecy "His body shall not remain all night upon the tree, but thou shalt in any wise bury him that day; (for he that is hanged is accursed of God
" ( Deuteronomy 21:23 )John 19:32 Then came the soldiers, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other which was crucified with him.
33 But when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs:
34 But one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and forthwith came there out blood and water.
35 And he that saw it bare record, and his record is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye might believe.
36 For these things were done, that the scripture should be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken.
37 And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced.
So back to my question of how do we know the thief was saved?
Lets ask ourselves three questions, firstly, what did the thief mean when he said "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom."? ( Luke 23:42 )
In John 6:14-15 the mulitude of people thought to make him King by force, believing he was to set up the kingdom there and then, freeing them from Roman oppression and bondage, not understanding he going to die for our sins.
So what about the disciples?
Matthew 20:20 Then came to him the mother of Zebedees children with her sons, worshipping him, and desiring a certain thing of him.
21 And he said unto her, What wilt thou? She saith unto him, Grant that these my two sons may sit, the one on thy right hand, and the other on the left, in thy kingdom.
22 But Jesus answered and said, Ye know not what ye ask. Are ye able to drink of the cup that I shall drink of, and to be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with? They say unto him, We are able.
They had no idea that Jesus was talking about his persecution, suffering and terrible death at the cross. They said we are able, they also were clueless.
Prior to Pentecost, the disciples were clueless.
The risen Jesus, whilst withholding his identity asked the two disciples on the road to Emmaus why they were sad:
But we trusted that it had been he which should have redeemed Israel: and beside all this, to day is the third day since these things were done.
Luke 24:21
Thinking the Messiah was dead, they had lost hope. They also had expected the redeemer of Israel to free them from Roman oppression.
Notice in Luke 22:32 Jesus says to Peter "and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren." Peter was a disciple of Jesus, he was with him three and half years, and he saw Jesus risen, yet he still needed a conversion. So what was this conversion?
The conversion that changed them from being clueless, to men of power and authority preaching the Kingdom of God, was the outpuring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost.
See John 14:26
When the thief said "Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom." are we to assume that unlike everyone else even those closest to Jesus he knew what he was asking? Or did he expect Jesus' followers to rescue him and him lead a revolt against the Romans?
Keep that thought in mind as we ask the second question. Which Came First?
In Matthew 27:44 it says the thieves, plural, both thieves, were mocking Jesus. So did this come before the events recorded in Luke? Did he stop mocking Jesus? Or did this occur after the events recorded in Luke? Did he think that he might get rescued along with Jesus, so he sougth to gain favour with Jesus, and when he realised Jesus was not going to be rescued, started to mock Jesus also? We do not know, we can only assume.
Question 3, Why is this story about the thief being saved so popular?
The thief on the cross is commonly used as an example of how to be saved. Yet the Bible does not say the thiefs sinned were forgiven. Nor does it say the thief repented. The Bible does not tell us if the thief got saved or not.
Is this story so popular because it a consumer friendly gospel for our fast food society?
We just have to say a few words like "remember me" and we are saved?
Another reason it is popular is deaths door conversions, that give people a good feeling. People like to be comforted with the thoughts that if they can get their relatives that are on deaths door, to confess Jesus Christ, either by saying a few words or if they are unable to speak by nodding their head, or blinking their eyes, then they are saved and on their way to glory.
Thank God Uncle Slasher Charley blinked his eyes before he died. Its a feel good, consumer friendly gospel, and that is why it is so popular.